13 Replies Latest reply on Dec 10, 2014 11:58 AM by Modesto Vega

    Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?

    Modesto Vega Level 1

      I am running Lightroom 5.7 and Elements 11 (and will upgrade to Lightroom 6 and whatever is the latest version of Elements at the time of upgrade) on a 2011 MacBook Pro running the latest version of Mavericks. Everything runs fine and I wary of upsetting a setup that works fine and I am quite happy with. Does anybody know if there is any reason why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?

        • 2. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
          RT56 Level 1

          Most lightroom users have had little problem with the upgrade but there have been multiple issues with Elements 11 and 12 losing functionality, especially when using a trackpad. Elements 13 appears to have solved these problems. There are workarounds on Adobe's site for 11 and 12 that seem to work for most.

          • 3. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            There is a color management problem in Mavericks and Yosemite (Jao's photo blog: Further quantification of the Mavericks color management problem) that affects Lightroom and that Adobe partially worked around in Lightroom 5.7 but not for every type of display profile: Lightroom 5: ICC Table Profiles clipped shadows under OSX

            • 4. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
              Modesto Vega Level 1

              Thanks Jao, I will have a good read through this. I do have a calibrated monitor (with x-rite i1 Display) and check I do not currently have this problem.

              • 5. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                Modesto Vega Level 1

                It would be very helpful if you could be more specific, some links would be helpful. Google does not come up with anything specific, just generics.

                • 6. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                  Jao, I have gone through your blog entry, very informative. I have a question that might merit a different thread: What profile does Lightroom use when using a calibrated monitor without soft proofing? What profile does the Develop module use by default when not soft proofing?

                   

                  I was always under the impression that it used the (calibrated) profile for each monitor, but I think I am wrong at least with my current set up. I might have always been wrong with by pre Mavericks set up.

                  • 7. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                    JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Lightroom itself uses the ProPhoto color space. As far as soft proofing is concerned, you can select the color space or the paper profile for your printer/paper combination.

                    • 8. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                      Modesto Vega Level 1

                      Thanks Jim, I know about soft proofing and profiles. I have always soft proofed my prints with a profile for the paper I am going to use (no problem with that). What surprises me is that if I soft proof with a monitor profile created yesterday, I get Gamut warnings (both for paper and screen!!!). If I soft proof using the ProPhoto RGB profile I also get Gamut warnings (just for the screen). I am now very confused and thinking I am missing one step on my workflow.

                      • 9. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        What profile does Lightroom use when using a calibrated monitor without soft proofing? What profile does the Develop module use by default when not soft proofing?

                        When you are not soft proofing, Lightroom internally uses a color space with prophotoRGB primaries and a linear gamma (so not ppRGB but a derivative). Be aware that to calculate the histogram it applies a sRGB tone curve giving the result that the histogram is given in a sort of Frankenstein color space for which there is no equivalent anywhere but I digress. It then uses the system color management libraries to translate to the monitor profile for display. This is what caused the problems. Something changed when Mavericks came out that made this not work right. When you soft proof, there is a step in between. It takes the linear ppRGB data, translates to the soft proof profile, and then translates to monitor in one step. Somehow this does not involve the same path as without soft proofing and you get the correct result even on Mavericks and Yosemite. On the latest update to yosemite, the bug still affects Safari (Jao's photo blog: Color management in Safari is broken in Mavericks too - look for a change in the top 10 patches when you mouseover - this is the bug) but doesn't affect Chrome and Firefox who use a different color management Library than the built in Colorsync libraries.


                        Adobe (mostly the always extremely helpful Eric Chan) found the problem in Lightroom and fixed it for most types of display profiles in LR 5.7 as you can see in the links I posted above. There are still some classes of profiles, mostly those used on very high end monitors when using some advanced settings in the calibration software, that have the issue in 5.7. You should be alright with your i1 though. You're probably best of if you have it generate a v2 icc profile just to be safe.


                        • 10. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                          Modesto Vega Level 1

                          Be aware that to calculate the histogram it applies a sRGB tone curve giving the result that the histogram is given in a sort of Frankenstein color space for which there is no equivalent anywhere but I digress.

                          I think the Frankenstein colour space explains quite a lot. Please keep reading.

                           

                          When you say

                           

                          It then uses the system color management libraries to translate to the monitor profile for display.

                          Do you mean without soft proofing and using a calibrated profile if available? If you mean this, I still don't understand why I get Gamut warning when I used my calibrated profile unless something is going on with the sRGB tone curve and the Frankenstein colour space. Please read the next paragraph before responding.

                           

                          When you soft proof, there is a step in between. It takes the linear ppRGB data, translates to the soft proof profile, and then translates to monitor in one step. Somehow this does not involve the same path as without soft proofing and you get the correct result even on Mavericks and Yosemite.

                          To research all of this, I have been looking at a photograph I took a few days back. When it was imported into Lightroom there was some black clipping which I corrected with a +0.10 Exposure and a +20 Shadows and Blacks correction (and the adjustment brush for an area that required more work). With this 3 changes the black clipping goes away without soft proofing. If I soft proof the photo with the corrections using the ProPhoto RGB profile and my calibrated profile, I get Gamut warnings whith both. The gamut warnings suggest that there is still black clipping. If I change my corrections to +0.20 Exposure, -4 Contrast, +25 Shadows and Blacks corrections and bring the Clarity from +20 to +15, the warning goes away. The corrected image ProPhoto RGB profile is that tiny little bit better, I am happier with it.

                           

                          This is a very long way of saying it seems as if the histogram without soft proofing is shifted to the right, not by a big amount but still shifted enough to create problems with clipping of darker areas.

                          • 11. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Do you mean without soft proofing and using a calibrated profile if available? If you mean this, I still don't understand why I get Gamut warning when I used my calibrated profile unless something is going on with the sRGB tone curve and the Frankenstein colour space. Please read the next paragraph before responding.

                            The display always uses the monitor profile, whether you calibrated or not. On Mac OS X, there is always a default monitor profile present that is used. On windows the OS often simply supplies sRGB as the color space of the monitor. Both are not ideal (calibration is better) but they are still what Lightroom uses. If you calibrated, it uses that profile as long as the OS has that linked to your monitor.

                            To research all of this, I have been looking at a photograph I took a few days back. When it was imported into Lightroom there was some black clipping which I corrected with a +0.10 Exposure and a +20 Shadows and Blacks correction (and the adjustment brush for an area that required more work). With this 3 changes the black clipping goes away without soft proofing. If I soft proof the photo with the corrections using the ProPhoto RGB profile and my calibrated profile, I get Gamut warnings whith both. The gamut warnings suggest that there is still black clipping. If I change my corrections to +0.20 Exposure, -4 Contrast, +25 Shadows and Blacks corrections and bring the Clarity from +20 to +15, the warning goes away. The corrected image ProPhoto RGB profile is that tiny little bit better, I am happier with it.

                            I'll attempt to explain. First let's see what happens with the gamut warnings. There are two gamut warnings when proofing. One for the profile you are proofing to and one for the monitor gamut. Which one is clipping? From your description I would guess the monitor one as it is very hard to get ppRGb to clip. Nevertheless, the clipping warning when not soft-proofing happens at a different critical point than when soft proofing. So differences in this threshold might explain your observations even for ppRGB. Also, does the histogram actually bunch up at zero or is it only one color channel? Thirdly, when you soft proof to prophotoRGB you have to also think of the difference in gamma. prophotoRGB has a 1.8 gamma, while the standard histogram has the sRGB tone curve applied. sRGB is linear in the shadows but has gamma 2.3 or so in the other areas. So this causes subtle differences.

                             

                            This is a very long way of saying it seems as if the histogram without soft proofing is shifted to the right, not by a big amount but still shifted enough to create problems with clipping of darker areas.

                            This is due to the difference in gamma I mentioned. in the steep sRGB tone curve you need higher RGB values to describe the same tone than you do in prophotoRGB.

                             

                            This is probably something for another thread indeed. What happens when soft proofing and with the gamut warnings is fairly subtle and sometimes you shouldn't put too much stock in slight changes.

                            • 12. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                              Modesto Vega Level 1

                              One for the profile you are proofing to and one for the monitor gamut. Which one is clipping? From your description I would guess the monitor one as it is very hard to get ppRGb to clip.

                              You guessed correctly, it is the monitor.

                              Also, does the histogram actually bunch up at zero or is it only one color channel?

                              It does not bunch up to zero. The closest channel to 0 is blue but the clipping occurs on a predominantly green area, grass with some deep shadows, curiously the green channel is the farthest away from 0.

                               

                              This is probably something for another thread indeed. What happens when soft proofing and with the gamut warnings is fairly subtle and sometimes you shouldn't put too much stock in slight changes.

                              Other than for printing I have never thought about paying too much attention to soft proofing. After this discussion I am not so sure anymore, it is as if by achieving a subtle balance between 2 or 3 profiles the photograph gains something that makes it a little bit better, at least if I look at it today.

                               

                              Might open a new thread about soft proofing. Having said this you have given me a good reason to upgrade to Yosemite.

                              • 13. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                                Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                It does not bunch up to zero. The closest channel to 0 is blue but the clipping occurs on a predominantly green area, grass with some deep shadows, curiously the green channel is the farthest away from 0.

                                OK, that is indeed then a simple case of the green being out of monitor gamut. If you soft proof and select the monitor profile as the destination, you will see that the histogram will have one channel (at least) clipping. What this tells you is simply that the monitor cannot show you the actual green color in that area.

                                 

                                Other than for printing I have never thought about paying too much attention to soft proofing. After this discussion I am not so sure anymore, it is as if by achieving a subtle balance between 2 or 3 profiles the photograph gains something that makes it a little bit better, at least if I look at it today.

                                Its definitely most useful for printing. Its sometimes useful to try to get an impression on how your image would look on different media. This is especially true if you make prints available from a site and are not printing yourself.

                                • 14. Re: Are there any reasons why I should not upgrade to Yosemite?
                                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                                  OK, that is indeed then a simple case of the green being out of monitor gamut. If you soft proof and select the monitor profile as the destination, you will see that the histogram will have one channel (at least) clipping. What this tells you is simply that the monitor cannot show you the actual green color in that area.

                                  You are guessing correctly again. There are some small green areas outside the gamut of the monitor but it does not seem to be down to clipping, the histogram is not close to 0 unless there is a very small hump I cannot see. The areas outside the gamut are no longer blue, they are red or purple (red for the profile/print, purple for the monitor).

                                   

                                  I have started a new thread Soft proofing.