I'm not seeing a difference in CS6 with ACR 8.7.1 on Windows 8.1.2 with an sRGB-gamut monitor profiled with an i1Display, with ProPhotoRGB as the working space and the ACR-save-as color space:
The way I generated my side-by-side was to open an NEF in PS which opened ACR then clicked Open Image, then zoomed in to 25% and moved it over in PS, then opened the same NEF, again, this time leaving it in ACR.
A possibility is that the color-management in PS is messed up due to using the GPU instead of PS, itself. A way to check this would be to turn of the GPU in Prefs / Performance, and restart PS, then try the same experiment.
We can't see your PS document title tab so maybe you're in Proof mode. This would be obvious from the title-tab that's cropped off in your screenshot.
Another thing to show is your Color Settings, and specifically look for the Desaturate Monitor Colors by xx% setting to make sure it's off.
Your ACR screen shot is irrelevant because you have the Preview box in the ACR dialog box UNCHECKED.
Go check that box and try your comparison and screen shot again.
Right now, ACR is showing you the image BEFORE applying adjustments in ACR while Photoshop is showing you the converted adjusted image.
Thanks ssprengel for the suggestions and running a side by side yourself. I went through all my settings and applied your suggestions and did a side by side each time. I even uninstalled the entire creative suite on my system then reinstalled and updated and I still get the same outcome. It was fine yesterday with the previous version of ACR. It seems like the updated version is not showing the image preview in any color space. When I switch the color space in the workflow options the histogram changes but it doesn't seem to affect the preview window. And yes the preview button was checked on it was just when I was using the screen grab tool in windows it took focus away from the application so that is why the settings appear grayed out. I have attached more screen grabs below illustrating all my settings. Also here is some system info if anyone out there has a similar setup and would be willing to test.
Adobe Photoshop Version: 13.0.1 (188.8.131.52 20131024.r.34 2013/10/24:21:00:00) x64
Operating System: Windows 7 64-bit
Version: 6.1 Service Pack 1
You could try resetting your PS preferences by pressing and holding Ctrl-Shift-Alt as you start up PS and answer Yes to deleting the preferences file. You might want to review your preferences in case you've set something on purpose that you need to set that way, again, after the reset.
And try resetting your NVidia control panel settings:
Also, my switching between "Other application control color settings" and "Use NVidia settings" does change the color-balance of my monitor so I think "Other application..." is the one that loads my monitor profile. When I copy/paste a screenshot of the "Other application..." view of the NVidia control panel into PS and eyedropper on the neutral areas I do get all three RGB values the same.
I tried deleting the Photoshop preferences but it had no effect. I also verified my NVidia settings are set to "Other applications control color settings". But even if that were not set that way I would think that would be more of a global color shift across all applications and not just in Camera Raw. I guess I will have to just deal with the problem and see if maybe a future update fixes the issue.
I do have one more question though. Is there a way to roll back to a previous version of Camera Raw?
I had no color issues with the prior version before this release.
And thank you for your suggestions and trying to troubleshoot my situation.
Sure, you can roll back to an earlier version of ACR.
If you know the exact path to the correct install location, you can do it manually by downloading the version you want, extracting the ACR plugin file and placing it on top of the newer plug-in to overwrite the latter.
There's definitely something wrong with the newer plug-in in your system. Now that you do have the Preview box checked, the difference is huge.
I see one mistake wrt problem chasing - changing the working space in ACR should NOT affect the appearance in the preview window, the image is rendered into another color space, but in a color managed system it's re-rendered properly when sent to the display. When opened into PS your settings convert it again into the default space, and again the appearance at the display should not be affected.
However, this doesn't answer the OP's question, why does the PS version differ. To my eye, although I don't know what the original image should look like, the ACR rendering appears ok (portrait) and the PS rendering appears desaturated, as though the 20% desat setting was invoked in color settings (it wasn't, I checked). Another experiment would be to save directly out of ACR into a jpg with embedded profile, and then examine same in PS, trying to pin down where the mismatch occurs, i.e. in the open process from ACR to PS or opening an image directly in PS.
P.S. Also temporarily choose Monitor Color in color settings, to verify that Photoshop is using your desired monitor profile, doing so will cause the profile name to show up in the RGB working space field.
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Richard thank you for your suggestions. I double checked again that 20% desaturate setting was not checked. Then I did the following.
1. Opened the photo in camera raw ( all settings zeroed out as shown in my screenshots above ). Then I saved out a jpg with the embedded profile directly from camera raw.
2. Next reopened the photo in camera raw and opened in Photoshop from there. Then opened the jpg that I saved from the previous step, into Photoshop and compared the two side by side and they were exactly the same.
3. While the two images were open in Photoshop I reopened the Raw file again in Camera Raw and compared that with the others. The one open in Camera Raw was dramatically different, extremely oversaturated.
So going forward. Here is the solution I came up with and following are the steps I took in case it could possibly help someone else with a similar issue.
In my case The Camera Raw plugin version 8.6 works great for me so I downloaded the zip file from http://swupdl.adobe.com/updates/oobe/aam20/win/PhotoshopCameraRaw8-8.0/8.6.28/setup.zip
Open the zip file and depending on the version of photoshop you are running navigate to..
32-bit version: -> payloads\AdobeCameraRaw8.0All-230714015400\Assets1_1.zip
-> extract the file "1003" and rename it "Camera Raw.8bi"
-> copy it to "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS6\File Formats"
64-bit version -> payloads\AdobeCameraRaw8.0All-x64-230714021448\Assets1_1.zip
-> extract the file "1002" and rename it "Camera Raw.8bi"
-> copy it to "C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS6\File Formats"
( NOTE: ) I am running on Windows 7 64bit using the Creative Suite CS6. So your file paths may be different depending on your operating system, install location and Adobe Packages
Also I would advise making a backup of the original "Camera Raw.8bi" files before replacing them just in case something goes wrong.
This fixed my issue and now I have no color difference problems.
Thank you to all of you guys for your help and suggestions.
I can understand you wanting to get back to correct operation, however the problem apparently still exists in your system, and going back-level on ACR is IMO a temporary fix. I have the same configuration, except I'm PS only, your description seems to indicate a full CS installation.
I encourage you to report the issue to Adobe, and go thru the agony to resolve, in my experience problems of this type will re-appear.
Did the issue occur with ACR 8.7 prior to ACR 8.7.1? ACR 8.6 still had issues with rendering on a HDPI display so Adobe likely changed something about how they send data to the display. ACR 8.7 and ACR 8.7.1 should be more similar so it would be useful to know exactly between which versions the difference occurred.
Does the issue occur with all image files opened in ACR vs PS or only NEFs or only D810 NEFs? You can open other image types besides raw files in ACR if you use Open As or change your CR preferences to prefer CR for all supported images, not just images with settings or raw files only.
The business with the NVidia control panel was not to check that Other Applications... was selected, but that you did a Restore Defaults in case there was a setting that specifically affected ACR, somewhere.
Yes the issue does occur in 8.7 and continued into 8.7.1. The last version in which it does not occur is 8.6.
Also I just tested opening files in 8.7.1 and no matter what file I open the problem shows up. The files I have and tested with are as follows.
Nikon .NEF taken with these camera models
Canon .CR2 taken with
- EOS 5D Mark II
- EOS 60D
- EOS 550D
I can now confirm there's something fishy in ACR 8.7.1.
It's immediately putting the Adjustment icon (tiny circle with two slider symbols) visible in Bridge upon opening a raw image without having applied any adjustments whatsoever in ACR . This is not kosher.
I hope Eric Chan sees this post.
I've created a new thread with Eric's name in the subject title just to catch his attention. In my first post there I linked to this thread here.
Great thank you! It would be excellent to get his eyes on this.
The settings icon showing up immediately happens when you have custom defaults that don't match the Adobe defaults. That's been happening for a few versions, now, at least in Lightroom, and while it is a problem, I don't think it's what we're dealing with, here, because the settings panels in the screenshots, above, are the Adobe defaults.
The issue may be only something that someone with a wide-gamut monitor can see, and both my machines I have access to are standard-gamut.
The symptoms are consistent with the ACR plug-in using sRGB as the display profile even though the monitor profile is a wide-gamut profile, similar to AdobeRGB.
What we need are repeatable steps one someone else's computer, to demonstrate that it's not merely an issue with your computer that we haven't quite figured out. If someone else with a wide-gamut monitor could test an image in PS and the same image with no-non-default settings in ACR it would be helpful.
I've never had any custom defaults ever other than Adobe's.
I hadn't noticed that [adjustments symbol] until today, but then I really never open an image in ACR unless I'm going to make some kind of adjustment
The symptoms are consistent with the ACR plug-in using sRGB as the display profile even though the monitor profile is a wide-gamut profile, similar to AdobeRGB.
OK, that sheds further light. I always use ProPhotoRGB in my ACR Workflow Options], no exceptions.
I’m talking about monitor gamuts, and I doubt you use ProPhotoRGB as a display profile.
I could word things this way: The symptoms are consistent ACR using a standard-gamut-sized profile (sRGB) when displaying images on a wide-gamut (AdobeRGB-sized) monitor. This is the wide-gamut monitor user’s curse when using a non-color-managed browser, most all images display as oversaturated.
You can simulate this by opening an sRGB image, then ASSIGNING an AdobeRGB profile—it will look more saturated.
I should have clarified why my screenshots are in srgb. When I first noticed the problem I was in ProPhoto, then I switched into Adobe98, then srgb to see if changing color spaces made any difference. And the problem is the same no matter what color space I was in. I just didn't change out of srgb when taking my screenshots but again the color space didn't make a difference with the problem that I illustrated.
But I also usually work in ProPhoto when editing landscapes and Adobe98 with portraits.
…I doubt you use ProPhotoRGB as a display profile…
No, not yet.
What you mean is that the PS workingspace and the ACR output colorspace were sRGB by the time you were posting screenshots whereas normally they are ProPhotoRGB or AdobeRGB depending on the type of photo.
The actual screenshot JPGs attached to your posts, raw8.7update.jpg and sidebyside.jpg, have no embedded colorspaces so they will look different to us than what you see on your screen. Screen captures are in the monitor’s colorspace, so need to be ASSIGNED the MONITOR profile when opened in PS – you should have “warn missing profiles” enabled in your color settings and then you should CONVERT the colorspace to sRGB before posting so browsers can display them properly.
Because they don’t have embedded colorspaces, they are assumed to be or assigned sRGB by the browser which is likely not right since your monitor is a wide-gamut monitor closer to AdobeRGB.
Ok so I don't get why that matters. Correct me if I am wrong but Photoshop and Camera Raw are color managed applications and people see the color within the color space Photoshop is set to, and how much of that color space they see is based on what their monitor can display. ProPhoto being there is no monitor that can display that full color space but that is another argument for why some people advocate working in it for some images and other people say it is pointless.
So in my case since I had Photoshop set to the srgb color space and Camera Raw workflow options set to srgb. I am seeing the colors within the srgb color space. My monitor being wide gamut is irrelevant. It just means I can see 100% of the srgb color space.
And yes the screenshots don't have srgb color profile embedded but via "save for web" they are converted to srgb colors. I could have embedded the Adobe98 color profile and someone could be seeing the image all out of whack and nasty looking but they would still see that there is a color difference illustrated that I was showing from me having Camera Raw sitting next to the image open in Photoshop.
The whole point of this thread and the problem I am having is to show that there is a difference in color from Camera Raw into Photoshop and there shouldn't be.
It doesn't matter to the main point of there being a discrepancy but it would matter as to which one seems more correct--whether PS or ACR is the problem.
From your point-of-view it is ACR that is wrong because using an earlier plug-in changes how ACR looks and PS is still the same. When I look at the images the PS version looks a little pale to me, as if it was wrong and the ACR version was more correct. I does help to know that your screenshots were saved with sRGB color-numbers.
I wish someone with a wide-gamut monitor would comment if they see the same thing or not.
Since it does appear, as it has from the beginning, that ACR is responding incorrectly to something at least on your system, is there a way to create a profile for your monitor using the calibration software that uses a different version of ICC (2 vs 4) or uses Matrix vs LUT profile? These are things I could do with the i1Display software when creating a profile. I know that in the past Lightroom has needed ICCv2 Matrix profiles, and I wonder if ACR has some Lightroom display code in it, now, that isn't' compatible with the specific type of profile you've created for your display.
Another experiment would be to set your display profile to the standard sRGB profile, and compare PS and ACR, then set it to the standard AdobeRGB profile and compare PS and ACR, to see if using either of those standard profiles removes the discrepancy. This would point more toward an issue with the display profile you have and maybe you could upload that for others to test, not that it would be correct for their displays, obviously, but just to see if the same problem exists for them.
Ok great thank you for clearing that up.
I did some research and from what I have found is that the Spectraview software that NEC uses to calibrate creates ICC v2 matrix-based profiles.
I also did a few tests where I switched my profile to one only using the srgb color gamut and the discrepancy between Photoshop and Camera Raw was gone. Then upon switching back to the profile using full gamut Photoshop remained the same but Camera Raw changed and went back to looking over saturated. But if I change the raw plugin back to 8.6 and still using the full gamut profile the discrepancy is gone. It only appears in Camera Raw 8.7 and the current 8.7.1.
Try AdobeRGB not just sRGB.
Monitor profile specifically using AdobeRGB gamut displays the same problem.
The use of "gamut" confuses me. Did you set your display profile default specifically to AdobeRGB?
On my side of things, I set my display profile to sRGB, AdobeRGB and ProPhotoRGB, and while the colors were less saturated, especially with ProPhotoRGB, PS and ACR still showed the same things.
Yes, I can build different monitor profiles and one of the settings to set is color gamut. So I built a profile using "Native Gamut", then I also built 2 other profiles, one specifically using Adobe 98 and the other srgb.
The only one that appeared to fix the problem was when I changed my monitor profile to use the srgb profile.
Ok, you’re using your monitor calibration software to create profiles and configurations for your monitor and when you specify you want an sRGB gamut profile/configuration then things are ok, but otherwise they aren’t.
However, I am asking for you to do something entirely different. Go to Windows Color Management and set the default profile for your monitor to the Windows sRGB profile and then the Windows AdobeRGB profile. This doesn’t involve using your calibration software or configuring your monitor using its menus or software, it something that can be done on any monitor that is hooked up to Windows, using the Windows Control Panel or Advanced Display Properties. The profile won’t be correct as far as colors, but it a way to test the hand-crafted profiles you’re making against a standard profile anyone has access to, and whether the colors between PS and ACR are consistent with these profiles in effect.
Make a note of what color profile you’re using before you switch it to sRGB and AdobeRGB so you can switch it back, afterwards.
Here is a webpage that explains how to set the monitor profile to sRGB. Do that, test, and then do the same thing specifying AdobeRGB instead of sRGB, then test again.
When I follow this process on Windows 8, the profile takes effect immediately and I can just load up PS and see a difference. I’m not sure if Windows 7 is immediate or needs a reboot. I’m also not sure if the software you’re using for your monitor is loading the profile as part of the boot process and therefore might override what you’re doing in the Color Management section of Windows.
Ok, I have completely reinstalled windows and reinstalled fresh copies of all my software. The problem is still there. I also did what you asked and applied generic color profiles through Windows Color Management and using the srgb profile the problem appears fixed. But with the generic Adobe98 profile the problem reappears. The colors remain the same in Camera Raw regardless of what profile I use but change in Photoshop when I change profiles.
If you reformatted and reinstalled windows without doing an in-place upgrade then all your settings would have been reset and the only area to check would be your monitor's configuration stored in the monitor, itself.
If you did an in-place upgrade or even just as an experiment, try doing a Windows Calibration operation:
Ok, I think I have isolated the problem and concluded that something is not compatible with NEC software and whatever was updated in ether Photoshop or Camera Raw. I kept getting strange and mixed results when going through the Windows color management and doing a custom calibration. So I reset everything back to default, recalibrated my monitor through NEC Spectraview to get back to where I started. Then I started changing the color profiles through the monitor to use the factory set internal calibration profiles set during production ( SRGB and Adobe98 ). And found that as long as I switched profiles using the buttons and menu on the front of the display the problem between Photoshop and camera raw was fixed. It was once I changed the profiles through the software interface the problems came back.
So I guess my next step is to contact NEC and report this and see if they can duplicate the bug.
…found that as long as I switched profiles using the buttons and menu on the front of the display the problem between Photoshop and camera raw was fixed. It was once I changed the profiles through the software interface the problems came back.
That can also point to a defect in the profiles that are activated through the software vs. the ones (presumably built-in) changed through the hardware. It might be wise to provide your profiles to NEC too so they can reproduce your issue.