9 Replies Latest reply on Dec 27, 2014 9:25 PM by Bloatt

    Why am I losing saturation?

    Bloatt

      I know this topic has cropped up before but I haven’t found an explanation of or solution to my particular problem.  I have a Dell wide-gamut monitor (U2713H) which has two calibration settings (using i1Display Pro), Adobe RGB and SRGB. Normally I process the RAW files in PS (CS6) then continue in Photoshop using Adobe colour space. Then I save the Adobe RGB file, but I also convert to SRGB colour profile for files I want to upload to flickr or send to friends. Occasionally I’m happy with the original jpg image embedded in the camera RAW file and may just want to crop it. This is when I get the problem. Jpg images with heavily saturated colours, saved in PS with no colour adjustment, merely cropping, lose their saturation and contrast, compared to the original. Oddly, if I view both files on a standard laptop monitor I see no difference. I realize that a wide-gamut monitor, even when set to SRGB, may not display the same as a standard monitor, but why should the colours in the cropped picture look different from the original, viewing both on the same screen. It’s almost as if the original (produced by a Canon 600D) is not tagged with an accurate SRGB profile and thus it gets corrected by Photoshop during saving. The only way I can get the pictures looking the same is to convert to monitor profile or to tell PS not to colour manage when I crop the picture, but then the saved picture has no embedded profile, which is not satisfactory. I’m running Windows 7 in 64 bit mode.

      Until I understand what is going on I cannot be sure that any Adobe RGB images converted to SRGB profile will look right on someone else’s standard monitor.

        • 1. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
          JoeLib Level 3

          Sounds like you are doing multiple color space conversions.

           

          Your Camera should be set to Adobe RGB (1998) color space as well as Photoshop set to Adobe RGB (1998).

          • 2. Re: Re: Why am I losing saturation?
            Level 5

            If you are shooting raw, like the Original Poster is, it doesn't matter one iota what you set your camera raw to.  Adobe Camera Raw ignores all those in-camera settings.

             

            What you need to watch is that you set your Adobe Camera Raw Workflow Options in ACR (what looks like a link under the Camera Raw preview window) to whatever Color Space you want, as well as bit depth.

            • 3. Re: Re: Why am I losing saturation?
              Level 5

              You really need to be careful and not spread misinformation, JoeLib. 

              • 4. Re: Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                JoeLib Level 3

                You don't have to yell at me station_two.  Bloatt was asking for ideas.  I tried to help him.  A Canon rep told me a long time ago to set my camera to Adobe RGB (1998).

                 

                Just trying to help.  Sheesh!

                • 5. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                  Bloatt Level 1

                  Thanks to everyone for their contributions. The problem has now been unexpectedly resolved, though I don't really understand why. Shortly before I posted my original message I was having some computer power-loss problems, which a repair shop traced to a faulty motherboard. With a replacement motherboard I no longer have the problem. I don't see why the motherboard had a bearing on the colour display problem since I don't use on-board graphics, but a separate graphics card. Anyway, it's no longer a Photoshop colour space issue, but a computer issue that I don't need to pursue.

                  • 6. Re: Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                    Level 5

                    JoeLib wrote:

                     

                    You don't have to yell at me station_two.  Bloatt was asking for ideas.  I tried to help him.  A Canon rep told me a long time ago to set my camera to Adobe RGB (1998).

                     

                    That's all good and well, but that refers to and affects ONLY JPEGs, not raw files, as far as ACR is concerned.

                     

                    Either you missed the context, or that Canon rep was not clear as to how Adobe Camera Raw works, which is not at all how Canon and/or Nikon raw converters work.

                     

                    Sorry that you took umbrage at the bold, maroon type.  I just get the feeling that you're just skimming through messages, manuals and textbooks, so I wanted to add emphasis to the point of my post.

                    • 7. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                      Level 5

                      Interesting that you think that the video card has nothing to do with the motherboard.

                      • 8. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Basic color management troubleshooting:

                         

                        1. Does the file have an embedded profile? Don't assume, check. It may have been stripped along the way.

                        2. Is the display profile a valid one - i.e. one that accurately describes the display in its current state? Wide gamut or standard makes no difference as long as the profile reflects it.

                         

                        And the really crucial one. This is where it most often breaks down:

                        3. Are you viewing in a color managed application, one that reads both profiles and performs the required conversion from one to the other? Keep in mind that color management always requires two profiles, a source and a destination. Profiles always work in pairs.

                         

                        If all these three check out, it will display correctly, unless there's a video driver problem. But it's usually 2. or 3.

                        • 9. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I realize that a wide-gamut monitor, even when set to SRGB, may not display the same as a standard monitor,

                           

                          It sounds like you are setting your display profile to sRGB in the system color management control panel rather than calibrating the monitor and using the monitor profile the calibration produces? If that's the case that might be the problem because there's no way sRGB would be the correct monitor profile for a wide gamut display.

                          • 10. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                            Bloatt Level 1

                            In reply to 'twenty-one's' first point the file has an embedded srgb profile. If it didn't, when loaded into Photoshop, the latter would alert me that the file has a missing profile. Re point 3, I don't know whether my picture viewer is a colour-managed application. I use Irfan picture viewer.

                             

                            In reply to Rob Day, I've followed all the recommended procedures in calibrating the monitor using i1 Display Pro. I don't make any adjustments in the system control panel. The DellU2713H has several factory-set calibrations, including SRGB and AdobeRGB. In addition there are two custom settings, CAL1 and CAL2, which can be used to make individual profiles using the i1 Display Pro callibration device. When individually callibrated to Adobe gamma there is no noticeable difference compared to Dell's factory setting, but when callibrating the second CAL to SRGB there is a noticeable difference when compared to Dell's factory callibration. This is not altogether surprising given comments I read in one very analytical review.

                             

                            As I said earlier, the problem seems to have been related to the faulty motherboard. I notice that if I load the two pictures (the original and a saved Photoshop copy with no adjustments) into Photoshop there are very minute differences in the histograms. Now these don't affect the appearance of the pictures, either in PS or when viewed in a picture viewer, but perhaps previously the faulty motherboard was magnifying the minute differences for some reason. I'm not a computer expert so I've no idea whether this is a plausible explanation or not.

                             

                            Thanks again to all for comments and suggestions.

                            • 11. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                              Level 5

                              Bloatt wrote:

                               

                              …the file has an embedded srgb profile. If it didn't, when loaded into Photoshop, the latter would alert me that the file has a missing profile…


                              Not necessarily.  It would depend entirely on your settings in Color Settings.

                              • 12. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                If it didn't, when loaded into Photoshop, the latter would alert me that the file has a missing profile.

                                Only if you have your Ask When... checkboxes checked in Color Settings—to be sure set your doc info to Document Profile in the lower left window corner.

                                 

                                Your problem may be hardware related but AdobeRGB and sRGB also have considerably different color gamuts particularly in the green end, so it wouldn't be unusual to see a saturation shift with certain kinds of images when you make a conversion from AdobeRGB to sRGB. Not as radical as the conversion into a CMYK space, but similar in principle and more noticeable on a monitor with a big gamut, so that might be the reason you don't see the difference on the laptop's (lower end?) display.

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2014-12-27 at 7.48.54 AM.png

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2014-12-27 at 7.49.01 AM.png

                                • 13. Re: Why am I losing saturation?
                                  Bloatt Level 1

                                  Rob,

                                   

                                  I wouldn't have said the file had an embedded srgb profile if I hadn't already checked in Photoshop. You may not have understood my original problem, which has nothing at all to do with converting from Adobe RGB to sRGB. I was using Photoshop set with sRGB as the working space to crop a file that had an embedded sRGB  profile, then saving as an sRGB file. The colours in the two files should have looked identical because I hadn't made any colour adjustments or profile conversions, but they didn't; the cropped file had duller, less saturated reds and magentas. That was the problem that had been plaguing me until it disappeared with the replacement of the motherboard.