16 Replies Latest reply on Jan 3, 2015 12:27 PM by SteveHS

    Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?

    SteveHS Level 1

      Help!  I'm trying to decide whether to return my new Canon 7D2.  I shoot RAW and import my images into Lightroom 5.7.  I've done lots of identical test shots with my old 7D and my new 7D2.  The 7D2 shots usually look softer and cooler and generally of lesser image quality.  I can make up much of the difference using sharpening and tonal work in the Develop module, but this is a hassle.  Can anyone explain why this is happening?  Does Lightroom apply different settings when it imports RAW files from the 7D and 7D2?  Or am I seeing some inherent difference in the cameras.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Steve 

        • 1. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Adobe creates profiles for each and every camera model. That is required because Lightroom uses the model number to identify which profiles to make available. If you aren't satisfied with those settings then you can open one of your  newly imported images in the develop module and adjust it to how you would like all images to be when first imported. Then you can save new camera defaults. From that point onward all newly imported images will have your custom settings applied to them. For previous imports you would just need to click on the reset button in the develop module.

          • 2. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Adobe Factory Defaults in LR are what each camera model initially has and should be the same for every camera.  These will include a White-balance of As Shot and a Camera Calibration – Profile of Adobe Standard.  Check to see if your 7D and 7D2 images both have these two settings.  It’s possible you’ve changed your 7D to use Camera Standard some years back and have forgotten.  This would explain why the colors look somewhat different.  If you are using Auto WB in your camera settings—what I always do, then maybe the camera is just detecting things differently. 

             

            As far as the 7D2 having lesser image quality, what aspect are you judging this by, noise, sharpness, what?  And how are you judging this, by looking at a reduced-sized preview in Develop or at 1:1 in Develop or how?

             

            The 7D2 has slightly more resolution than the 7D and so it may be showing your lens softness more.

            • 3. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
              NicHamilton Level 3

              I agree with all that Jim and ssprengel have said.....

               

              But/and If you really think it might be an issue with the camera or just wano confir that it's really not then try another raw converter, the software that came with the 7D2 would be my starting point which will use Canon's starting points rather than Adobe's.

              • 4. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                We’re asking questions to see if it is a difference in how the Adobe software is configured or if it is a difference in how the Adobe software is showing the images, OR if it could be something wrong with the camera, itself.  We need some answers to give our opinion of whether the camera could be at fault, which is the OP’s main concern.

                • 5. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                  NicHamilton Level 3

                  Sometimes I think we're speaking a different language.

                  • 6. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                    Keith_Reeder Level 4

                    I can't comment on what you're seeing, (OP) Steve - some examples from you with Exif would help there - but I own the 7D and 7D Mk II, and my experiences are pretty much the polar opposite of yours: results from the 7D Mk II are better in every observable way than I used to get from my 7D (which was/is great in itself).

                     

                    "...and generally of lesser image quality"

                     

                    You really need to quanify what you mean by that.

                    • 7. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                      Keith_Reeder Level 4

                      ssprengel wrote:

                       

                      We need some answers to give our opinion of whether the camera could be at fault, which is the OP’s main concern.

                      Nic's suggestion of ruling out Lr as a possible cause of the "problem" by trying another converter plays perfectly well to that aim, Steve.

                      • 8. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                        SteveHS Level 1

                        Thanks for the quick responses!  Some followup:

                        Both my 7D and 7D2 images show "Adobe Standard" as the profile in the Develop module.  I assume that would include some degree of sharpening?

                        I assume from Jim's response that the Adobe Standard for the 7D2 may be different than Adobe Standard for the 7D (though ssprengel's comment "and should be the same for every camera" makes me wonder).

                        Jim - Your last sentence threw me.  Are you saying that a new preset I save and apply to new 7D2 imports will affect my previously imported 7D images?  Or just that I would have to go back and apply the new preset to my previously imported 7D2 images if I wanted it to apply to them?

                        Is there any way to tell what settings Lightroom uses for the various parameters, such as sharpening, noise control, white balance, etc?

                        I am judging image quality on a 27" iMac at normal size (import preview is set to "standard") and various zooms, including 1:1 and 2:1.  I'm looking mostly at sharpness and color

                        I think I will try the Canon raw converter to see what that yields, as Nic suggests.

                        Thanks again.

                        • 9. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                          SteveHS Level 1

                          My most recent post crossed a couple of others.  Keith - thanks for your comments about you actual experience.  I've posted a request for just such experience on a Canon forum and, if as I suspect, the general experience tracks yours, that will point me toward trying another body.

                          • 10. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                            NicHamilton Level 3

                            On the sharpness front don't forget that, as ssprengel has already said, you might expect to see less sharpness at a 1:1 viewing as the higher resolution is more likely to pick up any softness from the lens.

                            • 11. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                              ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              The Adobe Standard profile is an attempt by Adobe to make the look of the camera be the same across different models; however, improvements in sensor technology and processing may lead to some differences so maybe you’re very sensitive to any color differences or maybe there is something wrong.  When the 7D Mark II is cooler is this after you’ve neutralized the WB by eyedroppering on a neutral object (gray card) or could it be the camera detecting a cooler WB, itself.

                               

                              A lot of what you’re wondering about could be cleared up by more careful description of the process you’ve followed to ensure the WB is the same between the two cameras—whether it could be a difference in camera detection of WB or a difference in LR rendering of colors other than neutral due to Adobe Standard profile inter-model differences or just a mistake where neutrals aren’t neutral in your comparison.

                               

                              If you’d like a separate opinion, post two comparable raw files, one 7D and 7D Mark II, and a screenshot of an X|Y  side-by-side in Lightroom that shows the differences you’re seeing.  Others would be able to say if the differences you’re seeing are within expectations or not.

                              • 12. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                                DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                                The sensor of the 7D2 is different from the earlier model 7D which is a 2009 production so I would expect to see some difference. Is the OP using an adjusted default develop setting for his 7D and has not created one for the new camera?

                                If I purchased a camera in 2014 I would expect significant improvement in the image quality, over a 2009 model!

                                • 13. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                                  JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  SteveHS wrote:

                                   

                                   

                                  Jim - Your last sentence threw me.  Are you saying that a new preset I save and apply to new 7D2 imports will affect my previously imported 7D images?  Or just that I would have to go back and apply the new preset to my previously imported 7D2 images if I wanted it to apply to them?

                                   

                                  Thanks again.

                                  If you create a preset and then choose to apply that you set when importing images, it will be applied to any images in that import. It will have no impact on images that have already been imported. If you decide to create new camera defaults then it won't be necessary to apply a preset. And any images that have been previously imported can have those new default settings applied by clicking on the reset button. You can always highlight any image that has been imported and apply any preset to that image. If you have done other work on the image you may not get the exact result you are expecting because the preset might change other adjustments as well.

                                  • 14. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                                    SteveHS Level 1

                                    Jim - Thanks for the explanation.

                                     

                                    DdeGannes - I am not using any adjusted default settings for my old 7D or my new 7D2.  You comment about expectations of a 2014 vs 2009 camera is exactly why I am concerned about the results I am seeing from my 7D2. 

                                     

                                    I have now taken hundreds of photos with my new camera, many paired with identical photos using my 7D (same scene, same lens, same settings).  I took thousands of pictures with my 7D over the past 4 years.  Based on these two bodies of experience, I remain concerned enough that I will probably try another 7D2 body to see if that makes a difference.  If it performs like the one I have now, I'll probably conclude that the 7D2 isn't worth the money for me right now.  That said, I am hopeful since the response I received on a forum dealing with Canon DSLRs indicate that most (though not all) of those who upgraded from a 7D to a 7D2 are very satisfied.

                                     

                                    I really appreciate all the responses I have received here.  This was my first time on this forum and I will definitely return with any questions I have about Lightroom. 

                                    • 15. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      What results are you seeing that concern you?  What specifically?  I have a 7D2 without a 7D to compare it to and while I think my 7D2 is much better than my older camera, I'd like to know what you're seeing to I can understand if it is something I see too or not.

                                      • 16. Re: Different setting for Canon 7D and 7D2 RAW files?
                                        SteveHS Level 1

                                        Generally I was seeing less vivid images.  By that I mean they were not as sharp, they were "cooler", and and they were lighter.  The overall impression was of a lesser image quality.  These differences were not drastic and might not be noticed by someone not doing a comparison of like images.  The reason I started this thread was because I thought some of the differences might be attributable to different RAW conversions.

                                         

                                        I also had less success getting properly focused birds in flight, though it is difficult to do comparisons with that kind of dynamic subject.  I know the 7D2 autofocus system is more complex than the 7D, so my inexperience with the new system may be partly to blame.  I have always been very pleased with the BIF performance of the 7D and 100-400mm combination and so it was disappointing to seem to take a step backwards.

                                         

                                        I just exchanged my 7D2 for a new one and am anxious to see if it performs any better.