19 Replies Latest reply on Jan 6, 2015 12:14 AM by ssprengel

    Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems

    dougtreiber

      I am using the latest version of LR on a 2011 Mac Book Pro. I am running into problems when I export Leica Monochrom DNG files that are shot AT AND ABOVE ISO 6400.  Lightroom is brightening the files on export a lot so that the final exported file does not look anything like what my edit looked like. This only happens with full resolution exports.  Other Leica MM users have experienced the same issue.  I have photos and screen shots to prove this.  What is the problem?

        • 1. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Can you provide a sample file shot above ISO 6400 and another one below ISO 6400, and do an Export of these as DNGs so your settings are included?

           

          Use somewhere like http://www.dropbox.com/ if you don’t have another large-file-hosting location.

          • 3. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
            dougtreiber Level 1

            This is happening on all full resolution exports ( I do 3000 on the long side ) with any ISO 6400 and above.  When I export at say 980 on the long side at 72ppi which is what I use for my blog the result is fine and matches the edit I see in the LR window.

             

            I know of other people with the camera that are reporting the same phenomenon. 

            • 4. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
              ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Can you post the actual raw file you’re working with to DropBox, not just an exported JPG and a screenshot?

               

              I suspect the issue is that the resampling in LR Fit view in Develop is darker than the file really is so when you Export it you get to see the actual brightness.  Check what the 1:1 zoom view looks like in Develop compared to the Exported file.  Also turn off any sharpening you’re doing for the Export and see if things look less bright.

              • 5. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                dougtreiber Level 1

                I uploaded the corresponding raw file into the dropbox link.

                Please advise.

                 

                When viewing at 1:1 the brightness does change.  How do I go about editing the file then? I do not want to edit zoomed in all the way...that would be ridiculous.

                Thanks for the advice so far!

                • 6. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  I have downloaded your raw-DNG file which doesn't appear to have any settings other than defaults embedded in it, and when I apply my own adjustments, I haven't been able to see any difference between LR and the Exported JPG viewed back in LR.

                   

                  Can you share your settings for Basic - Toning, Tone Curve, and Detail - Sharpening/Noise-Reduction?  In the one screenshot the Basic and Tone Curve panels are cropped off just enough so as the settings aren't visible.

                   

                  Here is what I'm using for settings for Basic - Toning and Detail - Sharpening/NR, and I've hidden the Tone Curve and because it's set to Linear and should have no effect:

                   

                  Here is an example of side-by-side in of my LR version and the Exported JPG in Windows Photo Viewer and I am not seeing much difference, but perhaps my blacks are not as dark as yours and it'd be more obvious if they were:

                   

                  I will answer your question about what to do when you edit once I see your settings and can test for myself.

                  • 7. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                    dougtreiber Level 1

                    I will send settings in a few minutes.  Your exported Jpeg does not match the LR screen shot.  The tone of each image is different and the exported one is slightly brighter.

                    • 8. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                      dougtreiber Level 1

                      3 screen shots of settings added to Dropbox

                      • 9. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                        Geoff the kiwi Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Doug, I highly recommend you post here: http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family so that it gets brought to the attention of the team.

                        • 11. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Are those settings for a JPG and not the original DNG?  The WB is not zeroed and the histogram is much brighter on yours as is the hair in the Detail preview box (not shown).  I'm nor sure about the curve settings as there is one less control point than the normal High Contrast curve setting and even if I remove one control point what's left aren't exactly the same.

                           

                          Here are my settings left/first applied to the DNG and your settings right/second applied to whatever image you're working with, and look at the histograms, how mine is much less compressed at the high end suggesting a dimmer image despite the same settings:

                          These screenshots are from LR 5.7.1 64-bit on Windows 7 SP1.  I will try it on my Windows 8.1 computer, later, and see if the slight UI differences are more similar, like the shadow under the curve and the faint grid lines on yours.

                           

                          Anyway, I'm still waiting for a reproducible workflow although I haven't changed my mind about why things look brighter for your Export, I'd just like to be able to reproduce it, myself.

                          • 12. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                            dougtreiber Level 1

                            I am applying a preset that I use for all my BW shots regardless of the camera.  With the MM WB does not apply so it is not changeable. 
                            Even when I do not use my preset and use something like Silver Efex the same thing happens.
                            I will include the preset in the dropbox folder.

                            • 13. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                              Geoff the kiwi Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Doug with defaults I can see no difference with an exported jpeg

                              Screen Shot 2015-01-06 at 6.52.31 pm.png

                              However with some settings applied - pretty random I see a difference with the exported jpeg.

                              What is causing this I don't know but worth the report as you have done...

                              Screen Shot 2015-01-06 at 7.20.56 pm.png

                              In this the jpeg version is lighter which is especially noticeable in the midtones  on my scree.

                              • 14. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                The easiest thing would be if you'd export a copy of your adjusted DNG as another DNG and then upload that DNG.  That way the settings you've been using are included in the exported DNG and all we have to do is download it.

                                • 15. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                  dougtreiber Level 1

                                  I have used every version of LR with just about every camera ever made ( I edit weddings for people ) and I have never seen anything like this happen before with any other camera...
                                  Geoff I don't see the effect as bad in your shots but it is there.  When I zoom in to 100 percent the brightening effect takes place even before I export in LR.  Is their any way to contact someone at Adobe that knows why this is happening?  I know Leica doesn't play nice with a lot of programs but I think what is happening is slightly ridiculous. 

                                  • 16. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                    ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    What I was hoping for was an original raw image with all the OP’s adjustments intact so I could demonstrate what was happening at various zoom levels and with different settings, but that seems overly difficult to come by so I’ll give my analysis of what is happening and what to do about it:

                                     

                                    The brightening has to do with the micro-noise-grain that has been excessively sharpened making the image a mixture of mostly white and mostly black dots immediately adjacent to each other rather than continuous tone of a low-ISO image.  This is not an error with LR or with the camera, and will happen with any such image from any camera.  The “brightening” is merely the visibility of the white granules at 1:1 zoom.  When a zoom level less than 100% is used, LR or Windows Photo Viewer or Mac Preview must determine how to combine multiple pixels together to represent one output pixel in the reduced-sized image.   Different viewers use different methods to combine adjacent pixels into one.  Some use Average, some use Median, some use the value of a single pixel position to represent the entire reduced-size combination pixel—this is called nearest neighbor and is the fastest but least accurate.  LR is known to use a fast but inaccurate resampling algorithm which is why there is a warning on the Detail panel to use 1:1 zoom to judge sharpening and noise adjustments.

                                     

                                    The problem here is that this lightening and darkening depending on zoom level is messing with toning adjustments, so how to tone and adjust such images, is to temporarily turn off Detail sharpening and turn up noise-reduction then adjust toning in Fit view.  Then zoom in to 1:1 and adjust the noise-reduction up or down to remove most of the obvious grain, and turn up sharpen masking so all you’re sharpening is edges.  Maybe even turn off the Detail slider (set to zero) to keep from enhancing micro-noise texture.

                                     

                                    If you do want grain for artistic effect then do that after you’ve removed the ISO noise.   The difference with high-ISO noise and added noise-grain is the high-ISO noise is single-pixel in size and will not be resampled accurately while the noise-granules created by the Effects panel can be control both in size and intensity so as not to respond negatively to resampling nearly as much. 

                                     

                                    If you are exporting images to nearly full resolution then dial back the export sharpening quite a bit.  If you are resizing quite a bit smaller than any micro texture will have been averaged out by the resizing and adding more sharpening during Export sharpening will help things look crisp, again.

                                    • 17. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                      Geoff the kiwi Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Yes to see a file with the OPs settings would be helpful...

                                      However I do take the OP at his word that he hasn't seen this previously as I haven't either..... Not that I use this camera or these settings.

                                       

                                      Indeed, I have just opened the original and jpeg copy in PS and overlaid them and there is no difference... so Steve looks like you might have something.

                                      • 18. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                        dougtreiber Level 1

                                        I uploaded a DNG with my preset applied into the dropbox folder.

                                         

                                        This type of problem has never occurred with any other camera I have edited pictures from at any ISO.  The Monochrom is the only camera this happens to.  Other Monochrom users have reported the same thing happening. 
                                        A lot of the users who have this problem rarely use the camera at such high ISOs but I want to use the camera at 6400 and above more than half of the time so dealing with a problem like this is nuts.

                                         

                                        The DNG I uploaded with my preset applied should present the problem on export. 
                                        My export settings are as follows for full size Jpegs

                                         

                                        quality 85

                                        3000 long side

                                        300 ppi

                                        no sharpening

                                         

                                        No matter what MM file above 6400 I use they all present this problem whether I use my preset or Silver Efex etc.  Anything below 6400 is fine.  I have no problems with any other camera above 6400 ever.

                                        • 19. Re: Leica Monochrom and Lightroom export problems
                                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I worked with someone else with this sort of issue within the last year or two.  It was a color camera, but the area in question was blue carpet somewhat out of focus taken with high ISO.  The blue was significant because that is the channel that has the most digital boost in the mixing of the RGB colors and so noise is higher in proportion compared to the other channels. 

                                           

                                          In any case, the same thing was occurring: white or light-blue noise dots in the mainly midtone-or-darker blue area were causing the entire image to brighten and darken based on whether it was zoomed 1:1 or smaller where smaller showed differences between Library and Develop, especially after Library was zoomed in to 1:1 and allowed to fully render, then zoomed back out to Fit or other smaller than 1:1 zoom.  Your monochrome images shows the same sort of thing.  Setting the Sharpen – Detail slider to 0 helps to some degree but not entirely.

                                           

                                          In a normal color sensor image, each pixel is just one color so two of the three colors of each RGB pixel being viewed are interpolated from averaging neighboring pixels of the same color that are 1 or 2 pixels away which tends to remove very high-frequency noise to some degree.  In a monochrome sensor, like your camera has, each pixel is independent of the neighbors so there is no need for interpolation so noise has no way to be averaged out by the interpolation step.