13 Replies Latest reply on Jul 30, 2016 10:18 PM by Laubender

    weird character spacing in paragraphs

    indralk

      We are having issues where we are seeing random spacing in some of our paragraphs. Its not all paragraphs in a file and it always seems to be the first 1-2 characters of a line... but not every line in a paragraph. All our publications are generated at a server level with Typefi using templates where the main text paragraph styles are set to Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer as we also use the In Tools "World Tools" plugin due to occasions where we use arabic/hebrew/thai script etc and we dont want to have to activate/deactivate the plugin depending on what titles comes through production. Our font is MillerDailyOne and as we have used this font for sometime without issues across many products I tend to think its not a font issue per se.

       

      We have just recently upgraded to CS6 from CS4 and its only since the upgrade we are seeing this issue.

       

      Our current fix for affected paragraphs is to override the Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer with Adobe Paragraph Composer .... however this isn't ideal as it is a time consuming process going through an entire book identifying the affected paragraphs and we are finding that we fix one lot of paragraphs only to find that others are then affected somehow during our layout phase. Also not all of our titles have this issue... some titles go through production without any problems at all!

       

      So my question is: has anyone seen this before and does anyone know exactly what the issue is?  Is it a bug with the Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer? The only other reference I've found to this issue was the reverse of what we are experiencing: extra space when using Minion Pro Font

       

      ie. in first paragraph: E lvebakken/l ounge/a n/k itchen; in the 2nd paragraph: after the bracket; in third paragraph: G rillen

      example2.PNG

        • 1. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

          Would be interesting to see the whole line with non printing characters in sufficient size to recognize anything,

          • 2. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Besides the screen shot Willi requested, doe the spacing carry through to an exported PDF?

             

            Have you tried exporting the file to IDML, or to INX from CS4, and opening that?

            • 3. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
              indralk Level 1

              ok so I exported two files to IDML then opened them in CS6 again and the spacing remained the same, however when i opened each of these IDMLs in CS4 the issue disappeared!

               

              As for PDFing the plot thickens! "Exporting" as a PDF the issue disappears, BUT if i generate the PDF via the "print" option in InDesign (which is how we generate our "to printer" pdfs) the issue remains.

               

              Also whats interesting is that in one chapter the "extra space" is consistently after the first character of the line, whilst in the second chapter is it consistently after the second character of the line - except for the word "The" where it comes in as "T he"... And whilst they predominately come off the server with this issue I've just had feedback from production that its happening randomly in chapters during layout. If chapters are kerned it appears ok at first only to revert back to the weird spacing later on. And also, its appears to be mostly confined to a few pages here and there rather than consistently throughout a chapter. FYI masterpages are all the same. And just looking at this more closely it seems to be lines where words are hyphenated over two lines that are mostly affected - but not always...

               

              Here's two more examples with non-printing characters (I've scaled them up so you can hopefully see the invisables). The first example is one character then a space, the second example is with two characters then a space....

               

              with non-printing characters2.PNG

               

               

               

              two_spaces.PNG

              • 4. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                Do you format completely with Paragraph and Character Styles or are you doing some overridings manually? I would strongly recommend not to make any manual overridings and use strictly formatting.

                Thus problems appeared here only when I changed manually the tracking or the kerning. If you need to adjust space, use the settings in the paragraph style for justification.

                • 5. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  It's probably the font itself (particularly if its an older version), and how it works in the new version of ID, but if the idml opens correctly in CS4, please try exporting from there as both .idml and .inx, and open both of those in CS6 to see if either renders correctly. There are enough reports of strange behaviors, even sudden complete file failure, when opening legacy .indd files in new versions of ID since CS5 that I now consider exporting the original from the creating version and converting that to be "best practice."

                   

                  It would also be informative to know if exporting the story to tagged text from the doc that shows the spacing problem, then placing that tagged text into a new file fixes the spacing.

                  • 6. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                    indralk Level 1

                    For the most part we rely on paragraph and char styles for our formatting but we do use manual overrides during layout mostly kerning +/- to copyfit text in occasional specific paragraphs, so its not overly practical to rely on para/char styles alone. I had originally wondered if the copyfitting ie. kerning was causing the issue but that's when i checked the files on our server and discovered it's happening at that stage ie. prior to copyfitting. So it is a possibility its a combination of both ie. corruption at a server level AND during layout with the kerning.

                     

                    As per your suggestion Peter, I tested further by importing the IDML file from CS6 into CS4 then exporting it from there as an IDML and re-opening it in CS6. I probably need to do wider testing (we are reliant on these issues appearing in production as we haven't been able to recreate them) but one chapter remained corrupted whilst the other appeared to be ok. In the chapter that remained corrupted the corruptions remained in exactly the same places despite there being some reflow between CS4 to CS6 (i.e the actual text within the paragraph hadn't reflowed but the actual paragraph had pushed on slightly). I then also exported the text from the original file that remained corrupted as tagged text then reloaded it into both a new document AND our template ie. the template that the corrupted file used initially, and in both of these files the issue was resolved!

                     

                    I should also add that we have other series of books, using the same font and in one case also using the In-tools plugin with Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer for the main text styles, and we have not had issues with those at all. Its just this one series where we are seeing this.

                    • 7. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                      indralk Level 1

                      Actually... an update to this. Turns out that our other series that also uses the In-tools plugin with Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer ALSO has corruption with text. With our most recent example today the spacing occurred in the middle of the line rather than at the start like all other examples... we are starting to think it might be the World Tools plugin causing issues.

                      • 8. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Could be, but my vote is for direct-conversion bugginess given that your converted IDML files don't show the problem. We see a lot of complaints about oddities in converted files.

                         

                        Full Disclosure: I work part-time for for another company that was started by In-Tools founder Gabe Harbs (as he is known here on the forums, where he is a fairly regular contributor to the scripting forum) and he happens to be a friend.

                        • 9. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          @Peter – In CS6 to the current CC 2014.1 there are four different kinds of composers:

                           

                          Two for the "western" languages and two for adding "global" languages. One composer for each branch that is considering the whole paragraph and one that is Single Line based. The Single Line based one for "global" languages was introduced in CS6 (not ME versions). CS4, CS5, CS5.5 (not ME versions) do have the "global" one that is for whole paragraphs only.

                           

                          Maybe it would help using the Single Line Global composer instead of the Full Paragraph Global composer in CS6 (not ME version). And my guess here is, that indeed the used Global Full Paragraph Composer could have a bug. In-Tools gives only access to that one, because it's not revealed in the "normal" UI of the none-ME-version.

                           

                          I think, Harbs did not write a new composer for that purpose.

                           

                          Uwe

                          • 10. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            I have no knowledge of what Harbs did or didn't do to update World Tools or keep it compatible with the newer versions of ID, and you could be correct that this is a composer problem related to the plugin. I do know we've seen this before, at least once, but I don't recall if previous reports also involve users of World Tools.

                            • 11. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              The really strange thing here is, that the effect will vanish, if the page is exported to PDF whereas printing to PostScript plus disilling to PDF will show the problem (in this case obviously the more "accurate" method ;-) ).

                               

                              And yes, I also remember that case you mentioned. Wasn't it with a book set in Swedish or Finish ? Unlikely that the Global Paragraph Composer together with In-Tools was used back then.

                               

                              Uwe

                              • 12. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                                indralk Level 1

                                Interestingly the books recently affected by this have been Norway and Sweden! But also Sardinia and Tokyo....

                                 

                                I think for now, we will continue with our workarounds with the view to doing more investigation should time permit. But thanks to all - Willi, Peter and Uwe for your contribution. You've given us some good leads and should we come across any sort of solutions i'll be sure to post and let you know!

                                • 13. Re: weird character spacing in paragraphs
                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Hi indralk,

                                  it's being a while, but there is some news on this or at least a similar bug with the Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer and the spacing of characters you are seeing. I don't know, if it's a solution for you, but it seems that the use of a special character in the text can force this bug. Peter Lenz at www.hilfdirselbst.ch discovered this.

                                   

                                  In the case of Martin Fischer presented at www.hilfdirselbst.ch it's a Discretionary Line Break that makes a difference.

                                  There could be well other causes.

                                   

                                  The link to the thread—all in German—is here:

                                   

                                  Globaler Adobe Absatzsetzer: unerwünschte Spationierungen an zufälligen Stellen
                                  Martin Fischer 26. Jul 2016
                                  hilfdirselbst.ch/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=551491#551491

                                   

                                  Can you verify, if a Discretionary Line Break is used somewhere in your texts?
                                  I cannot see one in your provided screenshots.

                                   

                                  If you want to search for that special character, use the following codes:

                                   

                                  TEXT search: <200B>

                                  GREP search: \x{200B}

                                   

                                  Regards,
                                  Uwe