19 Replies Latest reply on Jan 8, 2015 1:54 PM by Modesto Vega

    Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?

    Windl

      Using Lightroom 5.7 in Windows 7: I have installed additional print profiles from a commercial print service in the usual Windows directory. When activating softproof, Lightroom does not offer any of these profiles for selection (I only see some screen profiles). I can use these print profiles for a softproff in GIMP (for example), however.

      I cannot find out what I have done wrong. Please help!

        • 1. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          With soft proofing enabled, you should be able to choose from a list of installed profiles. If you have installed the profiles correctly and they are not listed then you should be able to click on the "Other" at the bottom of the list of profiles and choose from any of your installed profiles. Have you tried this approach?

          • 2. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
            Windl Level 1

            The profiles did not appear even when I clicked "other".

            • 3. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              What process did you go through to install the new profiles?

              • 4. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                web-weaver Level 5

                Are these Profiles CMYK-profiles by any chance?

                Lr will not work with CMYK-profiles and will not display them.

                • 5. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                  Windl Level 1

                  As printing is typically CMYK, I'm afraid: yes. Is there an easy way to find out whether the profile is an CMYK profile?

                  Despite of that I wonder: If softproofing is about preparation for printing, and CMYK profiles are used for printing, why doesn't Lightroom support these printer profiles?

                  • 6. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                    Modesto Vega Level 1

                    Windl wrote:

                     

                    As printing is typically CMYK.

                    Who says that printing is typically CMYK? Maybe fine art printing and not always.

                     

                    Is there an easy way to find out whether the profile is an CMYK profile?

                    What operating system are you using? I use OS X, the ColorSync utility allows me to inspect my printing profiles and identify the space (RGB or CMYK).

                     

                    why doesn't Lightroom support these printer profiles?

                    It would be great if somebody from Adobe could comment on this (although I know they don't read these forums). CMYK support would be a much welcomed enhancement to LR (in my opinion)?

                    • 7. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                      Windl Level 1

                      Maybe I was somewhat un-precise claiming that printing is CMYK. But for RGB: I don't no any subtractive color mixing based on RGB. So how do RGB profiles play with printers? Do they convert the RGB internally again to some device-specific gamut?

                      • 8. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                        Modesto Vega Level 1

                        Windl wrote:

                         

                        Maybe I was somewhat un-precise claiming that printing is CMYK. But for RGB: I don't no any subtractive color mixing based on RGB. So how do RGB profiles play with printers? Do they convert the RGB internally again to some device-specific gamut?

                        I don't use profiles for printers. I use profiles for papers and printers and there is difference between Harman Warmtone Gloss and C-type Fuji Flex, to quote two examples. In other words, it is not just a device gamut but a paper gamut. I usually print Harman Warmtone Gloss for colour and C-type Fuji Flex for black and white. I get a 3rd party lab to do my printing and the 3rd party supplies the profiles.

                         

                        My experience is that when printing Harman Warmtone Gloss I rarely get gamut warning (please note the emphasis on rarely). Sometimes I soft proof using 2 profiles and I noticed the gamut of Harman Warmtone Gloss is larger than the C-type Fuji Flex, gamut warnings on C-type Fuji Flex go away when I change to Harman Warmtone Gloss.

                        • 9. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          That's a good point. I have only downloaded a couple of Costco profiles, but haven't used them yet. I don't know if I ever will. But in looking at them, I see that one of them is for glossy paper and the other is for luster paper. So they are paper profiles. If those others that the OP has downloaded are not paper profiles, that could explain why they don't appear on the list.

                          • 10. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                            web-weaver Level 5

                            Windl,

                            You wrote:

                            "As printing is typically CMYK, I'm afraid: yes. Is there an easy way to find out whether the profile is an CMYK profile?

                            Despite of that I wonder: If softproofing is about preparation for printing, and CMYK profiles are used for printing, why doesn't Lightroom support these printer profiles?"

                             

                            Yes, printing is CMYK but that does not mean that you have to or even should softproof for it.

                            CMYK is a device-dependant color profile whereas RGB (all flavours of it, sRGB, proPhoto RGB, etc.) is a device-independent color profile.

                            Device-dependant means that each device (i.e. each printer) has its own CMYK profile and - since this printer-typical CMYK profile is usually not known to us - you cannot softproof to that profile.

                            It is also not necessary for the following reasons:

                            The printers (except press-printers, i.e. large printers for magazines, etc) internally change the RGB profile to their own CMYK profile. This conversion is built into the printer by the manufacturer who knows the exact specs of the CMYK profile. For printing with your own printer from Lr you only have to select the profile for the paper and the printer that you are using. That means you need a profile for each type of paper that you are using (download them from the paper manufacturer's website). Lr then sends the information of the paper-profile and of the color space  (ProPhoto RGB) together with the color numbers (color numbers define each pixel) to your printer that will convert this information to its CMYK profile.

                            So for printing with your printer you softproof (in the Develop Module) with the profile for the paper that you are using.

                             

                            When you have prints done by a lab you have to ask which color space they are accepting (often they only accept sRGB). So you softproof to sRGB, or whatever other color space they are accepting.

                             

                            If you prepare your photos for printing in a magazine you softproof only to your selected color space; often this will be Adobe RGB since this is the most widely accepted color space. The conversion to CMYK is done by the prepress service of the printing house that knows the exact CMYK profile the printer is using. I send photos regularly to clients for printing in magazines or books. I have never ever had to deal with a CMYK profile. Usually I send my photos in Adobe RGB, and I tell my client that this is the color space. That's all.

                             

                            So to sum up. Unless you are working in pre-press there is no need to ever softproof to a CMYK profile. And that's probably the reason why Lr does not deal with CMYK.

                            • 11. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                              Modesto Vega Level 1

                              web-weaver,

                               

                              Agreed many printers internally work using CMYK, but computers and digital cameras work using bytes, not just for storage but also for instructions, and we don't worry too much about that do we unless we are electronic engineers or assembler programmers?

                               

                              Digital photography is about translation between devices using profiles. Soft proofing is all about checking the translation is accurate, about checking that information does not get lost. Gamut warnings are information that will be lost. The translation chain originates with the camera, if I set a camera to an sRGB profile, when translating to proPhoto RGB there is probably not a big gain because sRGB is a subset of proPhoto RGB, and the camera has most likely just captured colours somewhere within the sRGB profile. I am being slightly tentative because I know my camera, a Nikon D600, shooting on sRGB can give gamut warnings when soft proofing using sRGB.

                               

                              For best results either calibrate your own print for specific papers or print with a lab that calibrates their printers for specific papers and makes the profiles available. Each printer is different, the same way each camera is different. This includes 2 printers (cameras) of exactly the same model and make.


                              Just to summarise, the profile used by the camera is as important as the printing profile because photographs originate in the camera and you don't want to loose detail.


                              JimHess,


                              I have tried a number of times printing the same photograph on different papers and their corresponding profiles. I was amazed at the difference between papers.

                               



                              • 12. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                Windl Level 1

                                Thanks everybody for trying to teach me about profiles! I had exported my images from AdobeRGB to sRGB for use in a photo book to find that the brighter redish and greenish colors were not reproduced well. So my idea was to optimize the images in Lightroom for the printer (and paper)...

                                But please read my initial problem: I have an installed CMYK print profile in Windows 7 that isn't offered by Lightroom, and I was wondering why: 1) I did something wrong 2) CMYK profiles don't work in Lightroom 5 (see my comment about GIMP then!) 3) The profile is broken. 4) There's a bug in Lightroom 5.7

                                • 13. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                                  What operating system are you using? Who gave you the profile? How are you producing the photo book  (using Lightroom's Book module any other way?)

                                  • 14. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                    JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    I believe it has already been pointed out to you that Lightroom does not use CMYK profiles.

                                    • 15. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                      Modesto Vega Level 1

                                      I have just gone through the whole thread.

                                       

                                      The only free profile inspector I know which runs on Windows 7 is ICC Profile Inspector. You can use it to confirm it is indeed a CMYK profile (which I am sure it is).

                                       

                                      Because the print service gave you a CMYK profile that does not mean you can use it in LR, you cannot as said above by various contributors. My print services gave me quite a few profiles including RGB and CMYK, they are all installed but LR does not show any CMYK profiles as expected.

                                       

                                      How are you producing the book? Did you ever tell your printer you use LR? If you did, the printer either not listened or doesn't know LR very well.

                                      • 16. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                        Windl Level 1

                                        I'm increasingly amazed by Adobe software, the company who invented PostScript, color profiles, AdobeRGB, color management, etc. They seem unable or unwilling to support their own technology.

                                        Let me conclude with my little knowledge (what I think) on how softproofing with profiles works: A color profile contains (among others like whitepoint, corners of the gamut) information on how to convert device-dependent color space (like AdobeRGB) to device-independent color space (like Xyz, the "horseshoe") (and back). For softproofing another color profile is used that can convert the Xyz color space to device dependent colors (but those aren't needed). The output profile contains the device gammut as Xyz color space, so when converting the out-of-gamut colors in Xyz back to device-dependent RGB, the software can mark those colors that are out of gamut (in RGB space). So in my simple world it doesn't make much difference whether the final output colors are three, four or six colors; the software (Lightroom) should be able to find out (and mark) those colors that can't be reproduced on the output device.

                                         

                                        To Modesto Vega: "Windows 7" is an operating system, and my "a commercial print service" where I got the profiles from is fotobuch.de! As I said, I exported the images, and I wouldn't do so if I had used the built-in photo book module (the software from fotobuch.de is much more powerful, BTW). But I did not want to discuss that...

                                         

                                        So I guess the answer to my question is "2,4" (see Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?)

                                        • 17. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                          Modesto Vega Level 1

                                          Windl wrote:


                                          I exported the images, and I wouldn't do so if I had used the built-in photo book module (the software from fotobuch.de is much more powerful, BTW). But I did not want to discuss that...

                                           

                                          How did you export the images? Using LR? If so, what profile did you embedded?

                                          • 18. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                            web-weaver Level 5

                                            Modesto Vega,

                                             

                                            You wrote:

                                            " ...  if I set a camera to an sRGB profile, when translating to proPhoto RGB there is probably not a big gain because sRGB is a subset of proPhoto RGB, and the camera has most likely just captured colours somewhere within the sRGB profile. ... "


                                            Yes, I agree with that. Except I would never set any camera to sRGB if it is capable of shooting in Raw.

                                            When you shoot Raw with your D 600 (or any other camera that shoots in Raw), the settings of the color space that you do in the camera has no effect on the Raw pictures saved in the camera. It will have an effect only if you shoot JPGs.

                                            This may come as a surprise to you, and you will not find this stated in the manual of your camera. But it is so.

                                            A Raw picture - in your case a NEF-file - has no color space. A Raw-file is raw data, saying something like "this sensel has been hit by so many photons and it has a green (or red or blue) filter."

                                            The color space will be assigned by Lr when you import it , and - as you surely know - it's proPhoto RGB, or - to be precise - a derivative of proPhoto RGB.

                                             

                                            • 19. Re: Why isn't my printer profile available for softproof?
                                              Modesto Vega Level 1

                                              web-weaver wrote:

                                               

                                              Yes, I agree with that. Except I would never set any camera to sRGB if it is capable of shooting in Raw..

                                              I shoot RAW and like you I don't quite see why a camera capable of shooting raw would be set to JPEG and sRGB, but there are many cameras capable of shooting RAW actually shooting JPG and sRGB. Many manufacturers supply the RAW capable cameras with that configuration as default. I just borrowed one, capable of shooting RAW which was configured for JPEG and sRGB, and will have to go back to its original configuration when I return it. If you shoot JPEG and sRGB, you get sRGB colours, there is not workaround, the information was lost when the photo was taken.

                                               

                                              When you shoot Raw with your D 600 (or any other camera that shoots in Raw), the settings of the color space that you do in the camera has no effect on the Raw pictures saved in the camera. It will have an effect only if you shoot JPGs.

                                              This may come as a surprise to you, and you will not find this stated in the manual of your camera. But it is so.

                                               

                                              I take your word and I short of knew it but sometimes I think by D 600 shoots slightly different RAW files when using sRGB or Adobe RGB. I cannot prove it it is purely subjective.

                                               

                                              A Raw picture - in your case a NEF-file - has no color space. A Raw-file is raw data, saying something like "this sensel has been hit by so many photons and it has a green (or red or blue) filter."

                                              The color space will be assigned by Lr when you import it , and - as you surely know - it's proPhoto RGB, or - to be precise - a derivative of proPhoto RGB.

                                               

                                              Agree, I would like to add that the whole profile/soft proofing discussion only applies in its full if you are shooting RAW, anybody shooting JPEG and sRGB or Adobe RGB has restricted the colour space at source.