18 Replies Latest reply on Sep 24, 2016 2:11 PM by muzflowers

    Real time video editing, is possible?

    j90x Level 1

      Hi to all, first of all thanks for reading this post.

      I would want to know if it`s possible to apply some effects (mostly twixtor, some warp stabilizer, color correction) and see the result (maybe at lower resolution, 1/2,1/4 resolution) without rendering, but fluid (to verify the image goes accordingly with the audio, to see the speed change is adecuate with twixtor, etc...)

      I have a laptop  that is supposed to be powerful: i7-4800mq, 16 GB of RAM, GTX765M, and (maybe it´s the reason I don´t see the expected result) a 7200rpm hard disk (SATA 3GB/s, with 64 GB SSD catching mSATA)

      I use video primarily recorded from a gopro 3 black, and use premiere pro cs6, after effects. 1080, 60 fps.

       

      I want to change my computer because I have to do a lot of editing of short videos, lot of twixtor, and can´t wait to renderize every time I change something and the bar goes from green/yellow to red.

       

      I would want to know:

      -if this is normal, with my computer

      -If you where to going to buy a computer, instead of asking which component you should buy (of course you can), what do you think about these two:

       

      option 1:

      i7-4790K 4.0Ghz

      MSI GeForce GTX 980 Twin Frozr V OC 4GB GDDR5

      Motherboard: MSI Z97 Gaming 9 ACK

      Hard disk:

      • Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 3TB SATA3 64MB
      • Samsung 840 Evo SSD Series 500GB SATA3 (250GB x2 in raid 0)

      Kingston HyperX Savage DDR3 2400 PC3-19200 16GB 2x8GB CL11


       

      price: around 2100 euro

       

       

      option 2:

       

      i7 4790K

      2x GTX760 2GB GDDR5

      Motherboard: GA-Z97X-SLI

      Hard disk:

      - 2x HDD 1TB 7200rpm Seagate ST1000DM003

      - 2x SSD 120GB Kingston V300

      16GB DDR3 1600MHz (2x8GB) HyperX Fury Blue Series HX316C10FK2/16

       

      price: around 1600 euro

       

      I know I can use proxyes but I think proxyes with less resolution give problems with warp stabilizer and with less fps give problems with twixtor.

       

      Do you think I will be capable to do real time video editing with these computers? Thank you very much!

        • 1. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
          cc_merchant Level 4

          GoPro 3 Black is very sluggish on CS6. Twixtor is badly threaded and does not support CUDA acceleration.

           

          Re option 1:

          • The 980 is way overkill, a 760 is more than enough.
          • 16 GB memory is not enough, you want 32 GB.
          • Forget about the EVO. It is way too slow with writes. Get a 850 Pro.
          • Get some more HDD's and SSD's to improve disk I/O.

           

          Re option 2:

          • Only one video card is supported under CS6. Skip the second one.
          • 16 GB memory is not enough, you want 32 GB.
          • a single 120 GB SSD for media cache and previews is very small. Better use 256 GB Samsung 850 Pro.

           

          With GoPro material and even with the suggested improvements (more memory, better disk I/O) you will still encounter sluggishness, jerkiness, choppy behaviour, because of the quad core CPU.

           

          See Tweakers Page

          • 2. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
            JFPhoton Level 3

            Whoa Nellie !!!!   Before rushing off and hemorraging a lot of money unnecessarily, see first if you can improve your Go Pro performance with your current equipment.  I have a laptop with similar specs and it performs very well with my 1080p projects. We have the same GPU, it is very good, your CPU is better than mine, ( I have the i7 4700HQ ), yours turbos under load up to 3.5Ghz on ALL 4 cores, ( 8 threads)....that is GREAT for a laptop !!

             

            First, upgrade the memory yourself, if possible.....16GB is NOT enough.....load it up to 32GB  !! It appears you machine has 2 slots under the easily removable keyboard and 2 slots accessible from the back.

             

            Next, use the free utility " MSI Afterburner" to overclock and monitor your GPU...with the 765M, I have been able to set the "core clock" to PLUS 30 Mhz and the "memory clock" to PLUS 903 Mhz with NO heat issues...  Exporting a 4 video track 1080p timeline containing many GPU accelerated effects, the overclock has provided a 25% reduction in exporting time. Using Afterburner as a monitor, you can actually see the increase of "GPU Usage" and temperature as you add effects to the clips on your timeline....to the point of 100% saturation.

             

            I am unclear from your description exactly what your storage system is....I THINK you said you have a SINGLE drive, a 7200rpm hard drive with a 64MB cache on it.....but, you confuse me with the "mSATA" reference...64 GB would be TOO SMALL for OS,programs and Windows page file. You need to better explain EXACTLY what you have for drives and slots, and what you put on them. Not many laptops have both the 765M AND the 4800MQ CPU....yours appears to be the German "Schenker" W503, based on the Clevo . If it IS this machine, you have TWO mSATA slots and ONE SATA III slot...ALL accessible from the back.

            This gives you an opportunity to create a really fast storage system.....using only one drive for PPro is below spec anyway. You can use the 2.5" HDD slot to put a Crucial M550 SSD ....the 512 GB model was on sale last week for $169 at New Egg. The only other SSD recommended is the Samsung Pro 850, which is WAY more expensive. On the Crucial SSD, you would have your Operating system,Programs, and Windows page file ONLY....it would run at between 500 and 550 MB/sec. read AND write

             

            Next, you would take 2 identical mSATA drives and create a RAID 0 with them to double the speed of them. You would place all your media, project files, previews, cache files on this RAID. It should run at over 1GB/sec. as compared to the SLOW HDD running at 120 to 60 MB/sec. !!! Crucial M550s are available as mSATA drives at New Egg....the older 480 GB M500s are available at $240 each.

             

            Playing 1080p highly compressed MP4 footage at 60 frames per second in Premiere Pro is MUCH more taxing to the CPU than the usual 24 ,or, 30 frames a second. Go Pro offers the free "Studio" app which allows you to transcode the NATIVE mp4 footage into the formerly expensive " Cineform" codec for FREE !! This "visually lossless" codec was used by pros for years and used to be expensive to own. It is an AVI codec which runs EASY on your CPU...however, the file sizes are HUGE and take up a LOT of space AND also require a FAST "disk system" to push all that data fast enough, (Quality SATA III SSDs will provide that speed...Crucial M550s are recommended). As you probably have no eSATA,or, Thunderbolt on your laptop, any external storage would be limited to the USB 3 speed. I have never gotten above 220MB/sec. using a SATA III SSD in an external USB 3 dock. However, an enterprise level 3.5 inch HDD in such a dock would work great as back-up, and for large files. Seagate makes 3 and 4 TB models which have a 128MB cache and run at over 200MB/sec.


            You may want to visit the PPBM7 website and test your machine the way it is with the video benchmarking test for PPro.  It will give you a good idea of how its working. There is a laptop on there which is owned by Bill Gehrke that is similar to yours , only he has 2 fast Samsung Pro SSDs in it.


            Then, after making improvements, test again to see the difference.   Remember, no matter what, you can always transcode the native mp4 files to Cinefom for free and store those files on a large, fast enterprise disk plugged into a $30 USB 3 dock.

            • 3. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
              j90x Level 1

              Thanks a lot cc_merchant and JFPhoton. Lot of good information and suggestions, I have new dudes so I´m in the correct way JFPhoton my laptop is an Alienware 14. So, after reading more than once your comments:

              - I think I´m going to try to improve the performance of my footage:

                   - I´m going to try to convert mp4 files to Cineform. I suppose there is no noticeable quality loss, right?

                   - I will try the MSI afterburner application.

                   - Is there a similar plugin to twixtor that takes advantage of CUDA and/or multithreading? One that can      bring me similar results in quality

                   - JFPhoton, I think the maximum RAM that allow my computer is 16 GB, so no upgrade here.

                   - This is the hard disk as seen by AIDA:

              disks.jpg

               

              - So I think here comes the problem: no thunderbolt, no esata port,  the maximum improvement I can do will be changing the disk I have to a SSD model, but I think it wouldn´t be enough, only one disk... as I have read in your and other comments, putting minimum 2 disk (one for programs and premiere, other for the project files) is very-very recommended.... and raid 0 also impossible...

               

               

              So in case I will buy a new computer.....

              - @cc_merchant is so important the number of cores of the CPU? Should I go for 6 or even 8 cores?

              - One of the most important thing would be the SSDs: ones you have recommended (crucial 550 or Samsung Pro 850)

              - 32 GB

              - Video card: 760 it´s enough? I thought GPU was more important for pre-visualization without rendering.

               

              I will also try PPBM6 to test my computer performance. I have registered and I´m waiting for the administrator confirmation.

               

              Thank you very much guys!!!

              • 4. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                j90x Level 1

                I have found this article about the possibility of using 2 cards: it seems Adobe uses them for rendering but not for real time editing.

                 

                http://provideocoalition.com/f/story/adobe-premiere-pro-and-multiple-gpus

                • 5. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                  cc_merchant Level 4

                  Beware that dual video cards is not the holy grail. It may be, if you belong to Category A in this article, Tweakers Page - Exporting Style  but will not help if you belong to category B.

                  • 6. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                    j90x Level 1

                    Thanks cc_merchant. Some questions:

                     

                    - Is there a similar plugin to twixtor that takes advantage of CUDA and/or multithreading? One that can bring me similar results in quality.

                    - It`s  so important the number of cores of the CPU? Should I go for 6 or even 8 cores?

                    - Real time editing requires obviusly a balanced system, so with an i7, SSD, wich video card would you recommend?


                    I don´t care  about rendering time.

                    Thanks!!

                    • 7. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                      j90x Level 1

                      JFPhoton: I wanted to answer you but I answered to me, so I will write it again if you haven´t see it:

                       

                      I own an Alienware 14. So while I think the maximum RAM that allows my computer is 16 GB, there is no upgrade here.

                      This is the hard disk as seen by AIDA:

                      disks.jpg

                       

                      I think there is the problem: no thunderbolt, no esata port,  the maximum improvement I can do will be changing the disk I have to a SSD model, but I think it wouldn´t be enough, only one disk... as I have read in your and other comments, putting minimum 2 disk (one for programs and premiere, other for the project files) is very-very recommended.... and raid 0 also impossible...

                      Can I improve my laptop in some way? Thanks!!

                      • 8. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                        JFPhoton Level 3

                        ....read about your laptop....the good, the bad, and the ugly.

                        ...ugly first : you are right ...16 GB is the max memory that can go in your machine.....I believe that will hamper performance  with some heavy timelines,but, not sure. My laptop could take 32GB, but, 2 of the 4 slots are inaccessible, so I wound up with 24GB. I have seen the memory usage swing up to 20GB during certain tasks,but, not most of the time.

                        ...good : your CPU and GPU are FINE.....even BETTER when you over clock the GPU "memory clock" with the free "MSI Afterburner " utility...I go "plus 903 Mhz"

                        ...the BAD : its NOT hopeless, however. Your CURRENT storage configuration is a DISASTER !!!....a definite bottleneck which will cause huge problems with Premiere Pro.  The GOOD news is that it can be EASILY fixed. RIGHT NOW, you have a single 7200 rpm HDD with EVERYTHING on it and a SMALL mSATA SSD acting as a "Cache" for the hard drive, to help speed it up. That is effectively having just ONE drive, and that is below spec for PPro, which needs TWO separate drives as a minimum....( with the now way higher speeds of SSDs, some argue 2 drives are NOT really needed, if ONE is fast enough....but, thats not altogether true).

                         

                        Easy solution : replace the current mSATA 64 GB SSD with a crucial M550 mSATA SSD, ( ONLY Samsung Pros or Crucial M550s are recommended for use in machines doing video editing...there are reasons for this.....the 550s are WAY cheaper and only SLIGHTLY behind in performance.....hardly noticeable. ( $150 for 256GB, $250 for 512GB at B and H )

                         

                        If you have the Windows disk, you can do a fresh Windows install on the new, fast SSD. If no disk, just CLONE your existing HDD "image" onto the new SSD...( provided it will FIT !! ) . Now the new mSATA will be your FAST boot drive !!!.....reading and writing at over 500MB/sec instead of the SLOW HDD running at 120MB down to 60 MB/sec with all the LATENCY and FILL degradation !! On this mSATA, you would have OS,programs, and Windows page file ONLY....( although if you get the 512GB SSD, you can experiment using the extra space for all cache files, previews, and exports).

                         

                        NEXT.....take out the 7200rpm drive...replace it with another 2.5 inch Crucial M550 SSD !!!.....go all the way up to 1TB if you want !!, ( $450), or, at least 512GB. Place ALL other files here

                         

                        Using these two new SSDs will MASSIVELY improve your performance with PPro......but WAIT !!!.......THERE'S MORE !!!

                         

                        You have OTHER storage options as well. If you really want to go nuts, you can REMOVE the DVD drive, and use THAT SATA port for a THIRD SSD drive. I have read where someone used an M.2 drive as the boot drive,then created a RAID 0 with the now TWO 2.5" SSDs in the machine....( your BIOS allows it,I think) That would give you a huge "D" drive volume running at OVER 1GB/sec. for serving up all your media. project files and all else. There are plenty of "how to" videos for YOUR machine on youtube, as well as forums like "notebook review" where owner's describe upgrades they've done.

                         

                        Finally, you have a "mini-display port " AND a HDMI 1.4 socket. On MY laptop , I have the EXACT same mini-display port connector, but, it is called "Thunderbolt". I have read that with THIS connector, "Thunderbolt" and "mini-display port" are INTERCHANGEABLE !!! What it REALLY is , is a high speed data connection that is FULL-DUPLEX, ( UNLIKE SATA which cannot write while reading and vice-versa). Your version is probably 1.1...like mine. The newer 1.2 displayport connection can handle 4K .  The 1.1 speed is actually about 8Gbits/sec, ( or, 1 GB per second BOTH WAYS). This means it MAY be possible to connect a high speed thunderbolt storage device to that port....I am NOT sure....but I think you CAN because the HDMI 1.4 port handles my 2560x1440p IPS monitor at full resolution...yours should ,too. However, the mini-display port  may be configured for video screens only without a "Thunderbolt" driver....I am not sure. Thunderbolt storage is expensive and not well developed yet.

                         

                        You may ALSO us the USB 3 external port to get a decent speed for external storage. What I do is use a cheap $30 USB3 dock, that has both 2.5" and 3.5" slots in it. THEN, you can plug SSDs,or,HDDs in to it....changing them like "cartridges"....you will get up to 220MB/sec using SSDs in that, and normal 100-120MB/sec with a 7200rpm HDD.Its great for putting previews, cache files on....those are all easily recreated by premiere if ever lost or erased.

                         

                        So, SPEED up your storage configuration and you should be greatly improved. I found an AWESOME 27" IPS monitor on sale for only $299 that has the WQHD 2560x1440p resolution that would be KILLER hooked up to your laptop, which would EASILY drive it. The pixel density is AMAZING......1440p videos look like 4k on it !!...that's ANOTHER option you have.

                        • 9. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                          Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Do you have Twixtor 6?  This latest version supports GPU acceleration with OpenCL 1.1.  I do not use Twixtor so I cannot comment on how much this might help.  But here is a GPU-Z screen grab from my GTX 765M showing that it may help out Twixtor processing.  You will have to find out if Twixtor can independently use OpenCL while Premiere is using CUDA

                          • 10. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                            j90x Level 1

                            Thanks Bill. I have checked my gpu information and this is what I found:

                             

                            prntscreen.jpg

                             

                             

                            Surprisingly, CUDA is not cheked in my GPU!! Does it means I´m not using CUDA on Premiere? I have edited gpu_supported_cards.txt and I then changed from Mercury Playback Engine to GPU and I thought I was using it. How Can I enable it?

                             

                            Thanks!!

                            • 11. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              You probably have the built-in Intel Graphics 4600 graphics on the CPU chip active.  I have seen when I have two GPU's in my desktop that GPU-Z has a problem showing both those GPU's correctly in those check boxes.  So do not worry about that CUDA check box, also you might disable that GPU.

                               

                              On a second  look I do not understand why the upper  Memory clock is reading 0  that is not correct!

                               

                              Look at your Device Manager, here what you should see for the Display adapters

                              Display-Device-GTX-765M.jpg

                              May be this should help solve your problem--I hope!

                              • 12. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                j90x Level 1

                                Thanks Bill this is what I see:

                                 

                                prtscreen2.jpg

                                 

                                 

                                So I don´t understand if something is wrong or not. Can I test if my GPU is functioning correctly? thanks!

                                • 13. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Click on that "Intel HD Graphics 4600" and disable it.

                                  • 14. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                    j90x Level 1

                                    Thanks Bill. When I disabled it, the screen went off and I had to reboot to see something again. I thought, ok I´m using GTX765M now. The strange thing was that when I ran Premiere, the setting for using Cuda only allowed to use Mercury Playback Engine. When I activated the Intel Graphics Card again, Premiere allowed me to use CUDA again. Strange thing!

                                    Thanks!

                                    • 15. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                      j90x Level 1

                                      Thanks JFPhoton! I didn´t see your answer this forum has a strange "reply-to" system! I have done some research and It seems I´m going to improve buying some SSDs. I finally decided to buy a 850 pro of 250 GB to start. The idea is to use it for work so I decided the extra cost it´s affordable. Maybe, I buy another M550 and make a RAID. What´s better, to have the SO, software and pagefile on the 850 pro and preview, original files etc... in the RAID system or  the SO, software and pagefile on the RAID and preview files and original files in the 850 pro?

                                       

                                      about RAM... Most of my videos are short (5-10 min) so maybe with 16 GB it´s enough? We will see.

                                       

                                      I have read about "mini-display port " and it seems it´s only compatible with Thunderbolt screens but not with Thunderbolt devices. Strange thing. 


                                      What´s the monitor you bought and where? I´m thinking about buying one.


                                      Thanks for all!! Truly!!

                                      • 16. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                        JFPhoton Level 3

                                        I had a similar problem with my GPU when I first got my laptop. It turned out to be my POWER SETTINGS !! You MUST make sure you are plugged in and that ALL your settings are for " maximum performance",or, even while plugged in, the laptop will " throttle "  the Nvidia card,or, it will FORCE the usage of the integrated graphics INSTEAD of the Nvidia GPU.

                                                 Running on the battery will also do this.....no matter WHAT your power settings are. You MUST be plugged in to edit,or, when heavy gaming. The laptop automatically switches between the onboard GPU for the lightest loads, then goes to the Nvidia for heavier duty. I had massive problems until I corrected the power settings.

                                               The new monitor I bought was an Acer which had a great technical review. I have not seen it on sale again.....27 inch, IPS,    WQHD 2560x1440p.

                                            Good luck using your new SSDs.....you must use two to see any benefit......better to match them.

                                        Iwould put OS, programs and pagefile ONLY, to start with, on the 850 pro. Then, all else on a large mSATA....unlless you have TWO mSATA slots. In which case I would RAID 0 two matching mSATA Crucial M550s together for those files.  Then, test your machine at PPBM 7 website!!

                                        • 17. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                          j90x Level 1

                                          Thank you very much!!! Sure I´ll do PPBM test. Only one question before giving up this thread: It is possible to make RAID between mSATA M550 and SATA M550? The two disks are supposed to be identical but they have different connection...

                                          Thanks!!!

                                          • 18. Re: Real time video editing, is possible?
                                            muzflowers Level 1

                                            You will never get realtime Twixtor on current hardware. It is too CPU and GPU bound. May be you will get near realtime in 24p or 720, but not in 1080/60p near future. Wait about 5-10 years.