37 Replies Latest reply on Feb 1, 2015 8:12 AM by Modesto Vega

    Lens profiles

    Modesto Vega Level 1

      I need some help with something. I have a Nikon D600 with an AF-S Nikkor 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 ED VR lens. When I Enable Profile Corrections LR5.7.1 correctly detects the lens but it does 2 things with the raw file:

       

      a) it shifts some histograms (not all) a little to the right , enough to ocassionally cause a highlight clipping warning when the RAW file is not clipped

       

      b) it crops the image, I cannot find a better word, it looses a bit to the right and to the left (I know this has something to do with distorsion)

       

      I can live with a) but b) has me fuming. Effectively, I have to accommodate for this crop if I frame something tightly. Any thoughts? Is this normal?

       

      P.S.: I know I can correct this by changing the distortion amount from the default 100. But it appears I have to set the distortion to 0 to recover the cropped bits.

        • 1. Re: Lens profiles
          Modesto Vega Level 1

          Just a screenshot to illustrate the histogram issue on the OP. Left histogram with Lens Profiles disabled and right with lens profiles enabled.

          Histogram change.jpg

          It is more difficult to illustrate the second point, I can if needed.

          • 2. Re: Lens profiles
            RikkFlohr Adobe Community Professional

            A. Vignetting correction brights the corners of the image to compensate for the lens' darkening of the corners. This shifts the histogram because the image is now brighter.

             

            B. Distortion correction creates a non-rectangular image. So, you have two choices: Leave dead space or crop back to maximum area rectangularly. Since Lightroom has no mechanism for adding in missing space, Cropping is default.  Go to the Manual tab in Lens Corrections panel  and slide the Scale slider lower to see what I mean and recrop from there if you like.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Lens profiles
              Modesto Vega Level 1

              Thanks Rikk, before I delve any further on this. Let's go back to basics. I have 2 questions:

               

              1) Is Enabling profile corrections recommended or not? Is it best practice or not? If the answer has to be 50% grey and not black or white, some guidance or where to find it would be more welcomed

               

              2) If it is recommended best practice why is the panel so far down

              • 4. Re: Lens profiles
                RikkFlohr Adobe Community Professional

                I certainly don't recommend it for every image. But, I do recommend it when necessary: e.g. If Vignetting is harming the image, If distortion is obvious and undesirable. Lens Correction has a very high processing cost in terms of CPU cycles. It is less-than-practical to use it on every image and not always necessary to meet the aesthetics of the creator.  A fair percentage of the images I work with get Lens Correction. Some don't. Some lenses needed it more than others. It is a gray area.  But then, those are my feelings. A different photographer with different subject matter (e.g. Architecture, Copy Stand) might disagree.

                 

                As for your second question: If every image needs sharpening, why is it so far down? Tone Curve is probably one my least used panels but it is right at the top. You shouldn't read a lot into the order of the various panels.  Every photographers needs are slightly different and not all panels were there when Lightroom was first released.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Lens profiles
                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                  Please let me delve on this a little bit.


                  I read your comments as saying decide if you need lens corrections after you have applied any other corrections unless there is something glaringly obvious with the photograph. But what triggered this thread, and the question about the panel order, is that Lens corrections are applied on top of other corrections and don't seem to take into consideration any other corrections; for example, if I correct the histogram on the left side of the screenshot above using the Basic panel on the development module and them I enable lens profiles to correct vignetting, the Vignetting correction does not seem to take into consideration any adjustments on the Basic panel. This forces me to 1 of 2 things: go back to the Basic panel and bring some adjustments down or use the Vignette slider to reduce the vignetting correction. It would be nice if the Lens corrections adjusted the values on the Basic panel instead of making a black box correction; but it might be asking too much.

                   

                  I do make quite a few creative decisions before I press the shutter; framing is one of them and I am still slightly puzzled by the fact that framing could be affected by a lens profile if I don't give myself enough room on the edges. I might need to take this into consideration in the future for 'tight' shots. It puzzles me because in the days of film I did not have to worry about this; effectively here I have a correction, which is not a perspective correction, that can have significant effect on framing and composition. Sorry I don't get that.

                  • 6. Re: Lens profiles
                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    I have set all my lens profile default settings to Distortion = 0 and Vignetting = 50 for the very reasons you have just stated!

                     

                    Vignetting can look un-natural when it is completely eliminated using the 100 setting. In addition it will exacerbate lens corner sharpness fall-off and other lens aberrations (astigmatism, coma, etc.). This is most noticeable with wide-angle zoom lenses and less so with telephoto zoom and prime lenses. A setting of 50 is usually adequate and if you need to raise it higher on a specific shot the overall image exposure won't change near as much as with a 0 default setting.

                     

                    Distortion correction applies pincushion or barrel geometry correction to the image, which cause the image border to become barrel or pincushion shaped, respectively. The image will then be "automatically" cropped to restore straight borders. Wide angle lenses typically exhibit barrel distortion and when this is corrected it causes the image corners to become "stretched," which can actually look worse than no correction. The only time I use Lens Profile Distortion correction is when the picture has "obvious" straight-line distortion. The vast majority of my pictures simply do not need or benefit from distortion correction, and I use a couple of wide-angle zooms that have significant "measured distortion" (i.e. lab test results).

                     

                    Concerning cropping, if you think that a particular set of pictures may require distortion correction simply zoom out or back up slightly and leave additional area around the primary subject border that can be cropped out. We're talking typical 1% to 4% Distortion, which is a pretty small crop!

                    • 7. Re: Lens profiles
                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      In film days there wasn't anything easy you could do about the distortions except pay more for or avoid certain lenses, but with digital processing it's relatively easy to correct even significant distortion, so lens design and manufacturer can be cheaper easier and cheaper.


                      Mirrorless cameras and other cameras with electronic viewfinders can correct the lens distortion within the camera before the image shows up on the viewfinder, so framing can be done without worrying about the distortions, and LR replicates the in-camera corrections.  With a DLSR you're seeing the actual image that comes through the lens before it is recorded by the sensor, so framing choices may need to be less precise as you have found.  I usually shoot wider than necessary to give my self more freedom in cropping in post processing.  But I also don't have old film habits I'm trying to unlearn.


                      Here is an extreme example of lens distortion and the corrected result that is seen both in camera and in Adobe products.  In film days no one would buy such a camera except for specialized art, but now tens or hundreds of thousands are sold because no one sees the distortions unless you open the raw image in a raw converter that doesn't perform distortions.  This is a mirrorless camera so Adobe always applies these distortion corrections:

                      2014-07-03_143218.png2014-07-03_142934.png


                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: Lens profiles
                        Modesto Vega Level 1

                        Thanks for the reply, very informative.

                        trshaner wrote:

                         

                        I have set all my lens profile default settings to Distortion = 0 and Vignetting = 50 for the very reasons you have just stated!

                        I can now see why this would make sense.

                        trshaner wrote:

                         

                        Vignetting can look un-natural when it is completely eliminated using the 100 setting. In addition it will exacerbate lens corner sharpness fall-off and other lens aberrations (astigmatism, coma, etc.). This is most noticeable with wide-angle zoom lenses and less so with telephoto zoom and prime lenses. A setting of 50 is usually adequate and if you need to raise it higher on a specific shot the overall image exposure won't change near as much as with a 0 default setting.

                        If this is the case (and as I said above I can see now why this the case), I cannot understand why Adobe sets the Vignetting correction to 100 by default.  I first noticed this behaviour when I noticed a 'reverse vignetting' problem on a photograph that was vignetted on the top left and right corners before making any adjustments. With 'reverse vignetting' I mean the following, the raw file was vignetted (I wasn't too surprise about because it was quite a long exposure at f/3.5, 28mm, just after sunset), after enabling profile corrections, working on the overall tone of the photograph in the basic panel, and making some saturation adjustments, I ended up with a result I was happy about but had an unexpected problem: the top right corner which was vignetted in the unprocessed file was now too bright looking reverse vignetted.

                        trshaner wrote:

                         

                        Concerning cropping, if you think that a particular set of pictures may require distortion correction simply zoom out or back up slightly and leave additional area around the primary subject border that can be cropped out. We're talking typical 1% to 4% Distortion, which is a pretty small crop!

                        I can deal with 1% to 4% distortion (you are right the crop is minimal), but again (if this is the set on the slider) why does Adobe set it to 100?

                         

                        LR is supposed to be a productivity tool but after this experience I can sense some doubts emerging.

                        • 9. Re: Lens profiles
                          RikkFlohr Adobe Community Professional

                          Modesto Vega wrote:

                           

                          I can deal with 1% to 4% distortion (you are right the crop is minimal), but again (if this is the set on the slider) why does Adobe set it to 100?

                           

                          LR is supposed to be a productivity tool but after this experience I can sense some doubts emerging.

                          You have two defaults - No Lens Correction (~0) or full mathematical profile correction (~100). If you want something in-between how is Adobe supposed to guess what your particular whim is?  Adobe sets it to 100 because it is proper and where most users need to start.  If you don't like that, set your own default and apply it on import, or set a custom profile application to apply when you want. Both are possible.

                           

                          Lightroom is a productivity tool.  I recommend more study on your part.

                          • 10. Re: Lens profiles
                            Modesto Vega Level 1

                            Thanks for the reply.

                            ssprengel wrote:

                             

                            In film days there wasn't anything easy you could do about the distortions except pay more for or avoid certain lenses, but with digital processing it's relatively easy to correct even significant distortion, so lens design and manufacturer can be cheaper easier and cheaper.

                            The point I am trying to make is that I do not necessarily find it easier, but it is just my point of view. I have not shot film since 2009 and I am hoping I don't have to throw away (unlearn) what I learnt when I was shooting film; if I do, I am going to start thinking that digital photography and DSLRs are just about making money by having people changing their cameras every 2 years.

                             

                            What I am finding challenging is that the workflow with a basic DSLR kit, a 6 megapixel camera and a cheap lens, is sometimes more straight forward that the workflow with a much more expensive camera and better kit, a full frame 24.3 megapixel camera and much more expensive lenses (please note that emphasis on sometimes). I am getting good results but the workflow feels sometimes like walking on eggs.

                            • 11. Re: Lens profiles
                              Modesto Vega Level 1

                              Rikk Flohr wrote:

                               

                               

                              Lightroom is a productivity tool.  I recommend more study on your part.

                              Rikk, I don't find the comment helpful, and you can do better because you write great posts. Learning and studying is what I am trying to do by posting and contributing to the forum, otherwise I would not bother.

                               

                              Unless I profile my lenses which I am not sure I have the time, money and equipment to do, I need to rely on Adobe default settings which are 100; Adobe has chosen 100 for a reason, it must be some short of benchmark, they certainly did not arrive at that number by accident. Let me be clear about one thing, I am now convinced after this thread that the 100 setting for my 2 main lenses, specially the wide angle, is not right and might need to revisit how certain photographs have been processed.

                               

                              My comment to ssprengel it is even more relevant than ever:

                               

                              What I am finding challenging is that the workflow with a basic DSLR kit, a 6 megapixel camera and a cheap lens, is sometimes more straight forward that the workflow with a much more expensive camera and better kit, a full frame 24.3 megapixel camera and much more expensive lenses (please note that emphasis on sometimes). I am getting good results but the workflow feels sometimes like walking on eggs.

                               

                              I also suspect I am not the only one as I can see anecdotal evidence on this forum of people using mid-range to top-range cameras, specially Nikons (like I do) posting a lot of frustrated questions/comments.

                              • 12. Re: Lens profiles
                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                I am saying that correcting lens distortions is easier for our tools (i.e. our SOFTWARE) to do, now, so our tools do the corrections.  How did you correct for lens distortion in film days?  Theoretically it would be possible to correct for distortions during print making, somehow, with some specially designed reverse-distortion projection lenses but I suspect optical design was controlled in the camera lenses to minimize distortion rather than correct for it after the fact.  With digital processing of digital photographic data, mathematics can be used to correct for lens distortions, so this is what our software does. 

                                 

                                The Adobe defaults are to correct all the distortion.  The 100 stands for 100% of the correction.  You can turn it down to 0 (0% correction) if you want.  You are in control and can set the defaults or use presets for various situations.

                                 

                                Your subjects may not have straight lines or you prefer the familiarity of the distortions from film days, so the geometric distortion corrections with the corresponding shrinking of the field-of-view may not be what you want, but others would want them for their photography. 

                                 

                                I’m surprised we’re still talking about this, beyond Rikk’s information about what was occurring that caused the changes you were seeing, and Todd’s sharing what his settings are and the reasons for them.

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: Lens profiles
                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Modesto Vega wrote:

                                   

                                  Unless I profile my lenses which I am not sure I have the time, money and equipment to do, I need to rely on Adobe default settings which are 100; Adobe has chosen 100 for a reason, it must be some short of benchmark, they certainly did not arrive at that number by accident.

                                  A couple of points to help put this back into perspective. Adobe uses one (1) lens sample to create a specific lens profile and the test images are shot at a "finite" relatively close distance. Lens manufacturers establish"working tolerances" concerning how far from the "target model" lens components and assembly errors can be. Obviously for a cheaper kit lens these tolerances will be larger, which is the one of the reasons they are less expensive

                                   

                                  Some lens manufacturers will occasionally make "unannounced"  design changes to a lens to improve manufacturing tolerances and lens performance. The lens may then exhibit slightly different vigenetting and distortion amounts. In the case of some cameras (Fujifilm) this data is calculated by the manufacturer (not Adobe!) and embedded in the raw file in-camera during shooting. LR and ACR simply read this data and apply it to the image using the Lens Profile tool.

                                   

                                  In addition, some lenses exhibit slightly different vignetting and lens distortion when focused at infinity compared to closer focus settings. It's very possible one or more of your lenses exhibits this behavior, but the errors should be relatively small (±.33 EV Vignetting, ±1% Distortion).

                                   

                                  The vignetting and distortion "corrections" may be much larger with certain zoom lenses when used at the extreme ends of their focal range. You can check this at Digital Review, which has test results for most Canon and Nikon lenses. Look just below the title here:

                                   

                                  Nikon 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5G AF-S VR Nikkor Lens Review

                                  • 14. Re: Lens profiles
                                    Modesto Vega Level 1

                                    Thanks for trying to bring this back into perspective. I found your 2 posts, Rikk's 1st post, and ssprengel post very useful but I also find some of the language slightly misleading, perhaps not so much for me but for other readers with a less technical background.

                                     

                                    Lens profiles do not eliminate a 100% distortion of an image, actually LR does not detect if the image is distorted or not. LR actually applies an ideal correction which might or most likely might not be suited for each photograph.

                                     

                                    Do you know if Adobe profiles lenses more or less as described in the Adobe Lens Profile Creator user guide http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/lensprofile_creato r_userguide.pdf?

                                     

                                    trshaner wrote:

                                     

                                    In addition, some lenses exhibit slightly different vignetting and lens distortion when focused at infinity compared to closer focus settings. It's very possible one or more of your lenses exhibits this behavior, but the errors should be relatively small (±.33 EV Vignetting, ±1% Distortion).

                                     

                                    The vignetting and distortion "corrections" may be much larger with certain zoom lenses when used at the extreme ends of their focal range. You can check this at Digital Review, which has test results for most Canon and Nikon lenses. Look just below the title here:

                                     

                                    My findings for this lens is that 25% vignetting is sufficient which is line with the figure you supplied. Distortion is a little trickier because I would need to find something with straight lines shot parallel to the camera and both the camera and the object levelled. The lens definitely vignettes at 28mm, f/3.5 and, in particular, with long exposures, using the default 100% correction with other adjustments results on what I called 'reverse vignetting'.

                                     

                                    To figure out how the get vignetting corrected for this lens and how LR addresses vignette correction it has taken me over a week, with some good help from the forum but also some frustrating posts. I am not sure I call this productivity but it was a good learning experience.

                                     

                                    I would also like to add that understanding the mathematics behind lens profiles corrections is not for 'mere mortals', a technical background is needed.

                                     

                                    P.S.: ssprengel - Ansel Adams has a wonderful story about correcting distortion (vertical and horizontal) during the print days in one of his books; I wish there was a software method to do this as simple as what he explained.

                                    • 15. Re: Lens profiles
                                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Modesto Vega wrote:

                                      Lens profiles do not eliminate a 100% distortion of an image, actually LR does not detect if the image is distorted or not. LR actually applies an ideal correction which might or most likely might not be suited for each photograph.

                                      The above statement indicates a misunderstanding of what the LR/ACR Lens Profile corrects in the image. The link to the Adobe Profile Creator is essentially what Adobe uses to create the lens profiles, but their setup is probably more extensive. The lens profile corrects actual measured lens rectilinear distortion, which is a deviation from straight-line projection. The lens profile also uses vignetting measurements taken at all apertures and a sampling of zoom focal lengths. This is the actual measured lens light falloff and distortion, which does not vary in each photograph.


                                      I downloaded a NEF file shot with your camera and lens. The LR 100 Distortion and 100 Vignetting setting perfectly corrects the image! I suspect you are confusing rectilinear distortion with perspective distortion. If you feel this is not the case please post a NEF file exhibiting the "unsuitable" 100 Distortion Lens Profile correction to a download site such as Dropbox. Please also describe what looks wrong in the picture (Example: window frame looks bowed with 100 Distortion setting).

                                      • 16. Re: Lens profiles
                                        Modesto Vega Level 1

                                        trshaner wrote:

                                         

                                        Modesto Vega wrote:

                                        Lens profiles do not eliminate a 100% distortion of an image, actually LR does not detect if the image is distorted or not. LR actually applies an ideal correction which might or most likely might not be suited for each photograph.

                                        The above statement indicates a misunderstanding of what the LR/ACR Lens Profile corrects in the image. The link to the Adobe Profile Creator is essentially what Adobe uses to create the lens profiles, but their setup is probably more extensive. The lens profile corrects actual measured lens rectilinear distortion, which is a deviation from straight-line projection. The lens profile also uses vignetting measurements taken at all apertures and a sampling of zoom focal lengths. This is the actual measured lens light falloff and distortion, which does not vary in each photograph.


                                        I downloaded a NEF file shot with your camera and lens. The LR 100 Distortion and 100 Vignetting setting perfectly corrects the image! I suspect you are confusing rectilinear distortion with perspective distortion. If you feel this is not the case please post a NEF file exhibiting the "unsuitable" 100 Distortion Lens Profile correction to a download site such as Dropbox. Please also describe what looks wrong in the picture (Example: window frame looks bowed with 100 Distortion setting).

                                        I just tried the NEF file and LR 100 Distortion and 100 Vignetting does perfectly correct that Image. You are right about it! I will find and upload suitable image tomorrow and upload it to Dropbox. How do I share the link with you and/or the forum?

                                         

                                        I am sure I am not confusing perspective correction with rectilinear distortion. But my main interest right now is vignetting, light falloff and understanding why the combination of camera, lens and hood does what it does under certain parameters. I also found this link - Nikon Lens: Zooms - Nikon 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5G ED VR AF-S Nikkor (Tested) - SLRgear.com! - the graphs for the D7000 and D800 are quite different.

                                         

                                        P.S.: In my opinion moving the new perspective correction to a separate panel would make the LR interface easier.

                                        • 17. Re: Lens profiles
                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Modesto Vega wrote:

                                          I will find and upload suitable image tomorrow and upload it to Dropbox. How do I share the link with you and/or the forum?

                                           

                                          Simply Copy and Paste the Dropbox 'Share' link into your reply.

                                           

                                          Modesto Vega wrote:

                                          I also found this link - Nikon Lens: Zooms - Nikon 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5G ED VR AF-S Nikkor (Tested) - SLRgear.com! - the graphs for the D7000 and D800 are quite different.

                                           

                                          Your Nikon D600 is a full-frame (24mm x 36mm) FX camera body. The D7000 is a DX format 1.5 Crop Factor camera body. When the Nikkor 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 ED VR FX lens is used on a DX format body only the central area of the lens (i.e. sweet-spot) is used. You can see the DX sensor area at the Digital review link I provided as a smaller white frame that appears in the center of the Distortion and Vignetting charts. When a full-frame lens is used on a crop-factor body the Vignetting and Distortion is significantly reduced.

                                           

                                          The LR/ACR Lens Profile tool automatically applies the correct area of correction when using a full-frame Lens profile (FX) with a crop factor (DX) camera body. Because of this is not necessary for Adobe to create separate FX body profiles for DX lenses.

                                          • 18. Re: Lens profiles
                                            Modesto Vega Level 1

                                            The file is on Dropbox, the link is Dropbox - DSC_3519.NEF. There is some vignetting on the top right corner. The output after all the corrections is below. Please note the top right corner above the moon crescent, it look weird.

                                             

                                            Warning: This is is not just down to Lens Profiles, there is a graduated filter involved which is causing the problem. It is somehow interfering with the Lens profile correction. The instructions to reproduce the behaviour that has triggered this post are below.

                                             

                                            DSC_3519.jpg

                                            Adjustments made to the NEF in this order:

                                             

                                            1) Enable Lens Profile Corrections with default settings both 100% [This causes a lose of tonality on the sky, the sky goes too bright]

                                            2) Enable Chromatic Aberrations [This lens does has notice purple fringing around things like the leaves tree branches]

                                            3) Increase exposure by +0.25

                                            4) Not happy with the brightness of the sky, after the vignetting correction at 100% the sky went too bright. So I added a graduated filter as follow. Watch what happens on right top corner and please tell me if you think this is normal/expected behaviour.

                                            Graduated Filter.jpg

                                            Other corrections I made after that which don't matter too much:

                                             

                                            5) Exposure up to +.5

                                            6) Shadow +30

                                            7) Black clipping +30

                                            8) Clarity +20

                                            9) Vibrance +5

                                            10) Saturation +10

                                             

                                            Really looking forward to your thoughts and those of any other contributors.

                                            • 19. Re: Lens profiles
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              OK, I downloaded DSC_3519.NEF and can confirm there is something wrong with the LR Vignetting Lens Profile for the Nikkor 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 ED VR lens. There is visible banding in the upper right-hand corner of this image with Lens Profile Vignetting = 100 and Distortion = 100 or 0. If I apply an equal amount of Manual Lens Vignetting there is no banding, which pretty much rules out flare or other lens/filter defects as the cause.

                                               

                                              LR Settings for both images:

                                              Exposure -.50, Contrast +50, Highlights -60, Adobe Standard, WB As Shot

                                               

                                              LEFT: Lens Profile Vignetting = 100     RIGHT: Lens Profile = Off, Manual> Lens Vignetting Amount = 80 Midpoint = 50

                                               

                                              (Click on image to see full-size.)

                                              DSC_3519.NEF Vignetting Correction Banding.jpg

                                              • 20. Re: Lens profiles
                                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I agree something is messed up with the vignetting correction at the upper-rigthhand corner.

                                                 

                                                Modesto can I share you raw file with Adobe?   Or better yet, do you have one that has sky in both two corners to verify the banding is on both sides?

                                                • 21. Re: Lens profiles
                                                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                  trshaner & ssprengel - Thanks for your help, it is really much appreciated.

                                                   

                                                  You can share the file with Adobe. I will also check if I can find with the problem on both sides.

                                                  • 22. Re: Lens profiles
                                                    Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                    I found one with the problem on both top corners. The dropbox link is Dropbox - DSC_3530.NEF. Same settings as per Todd's reply but to ensure the problem affects both corners I set exposure to -2.

                                                     

                                                    Could you please delete it from Dropbox once you got it or let me know you got it (whatever is best for you)?

                                                    • 23. Re: Lens profiles
                                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      I have both your NEFs, now, so you can take them down if need be.

                                                       

                                                      From a share link, other users only have the option to download or copy the file to our own Dropbox:

                                                      • 24. Re: Lens profiles
                                                        Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                        Thanks (and thanks again for your help and Todd's; I thought I was going barking mad ). I will remove them just to keep the dropbox tidy. If you or Adobe need anything else either reply to this thread or send my a private message/e-mail.

                                                        • 25. Re: Lens profiles
                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          I see the same banding in both images. I checked my Canon 16-35mm F4L IS at various focal lengths and apertures from wide open (F4) to F8. and don't see any banding with Vignetting = 100. When I first tested this lens I settled on a Vignetting setting of 75, which seems to work well. I'm going to run some tests to check the actual "uniformity" of the Lens Profile Vignetting correction with the Canon 16-35mm F4L IS.

                                                           

                                                          In checking the two posted NEFs a Vignetting setting of 50 looks good and the banding does not appear with "normal" Tone settings. You'll have to check other focal lengths and apertures, but it's probably adequate for most images....at least for now!

                                                          • 26. Re: Lens profiles
                                                            Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                            I am going through my catalog trying to find an example of a narrow aperture and vignetting, so far I haven't found anything, above f/5.6 it appears to fine. The vignetting does not concern as much as getting different results by Enabling Profiles or correcting the Vignetting manually; this is really the issue.

                                                             

                                                            I don't have the same problem with the wide angle, a Nikon AF Nikkor 20mm 1:2:8D. LR corrects vignetting fine both ways.

                                                            • 27. Re: Lens profiles
                                                              photodougbarefoot

                                                              Thanks for a very helpfull discussion! How do i set the default in lightroom and how do i make an import preset that will automatically apply lens corrections?

                                                              • 28. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                Change the Lens Profile settings in the Lens Corrections panel to the new settings and next to setup select 'Save new lens profile defaults."

                                                                 

                                                                If you want lens profiles to be applied "automatically" on Import a preset is not needed. Change your Develop Default Settings to include Lens Profiles. Select a raw image file and in the Develop module hit the Reset button at the bottom of the right panel. In the Lens Corrections panel select "Enable Lens Corrections." I also suggest selecting "Remove Chromatic Aberration," which can do no harm! Next hold down the ALT key and click on the same Reset button, which should now show as 'Set Default...".

                                                                • 29. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                                  Could not say it better.

                                                                   

                                                                  A word of warning, to @photodougbarefoot, I have Develop Preset for this lens that I apply/applied on import when I expect purple fringing problems, like the 2 examples I sent to trshaner and ssprengel. It has taken me almost 3 days to figure out what caused the problem with those photographs. If I had not apply that preset, it would have been more straightforward. The morale of the story for me is: don't be so lazy, don't rely so much on automation.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    I ran tests to check the actual "uniformity" of the Lens Profile Vignetting correction with my Canon 16-35mm F4L IS lens. I checked 16mm, 24mm and 35mm focal lengths at F4, 5.6 and 8. The Vignetting = 100 setting produced a uniformity of correction over the entire image within ±0.1 EV, which is excellent! The only deviation from this was in the extreme corners of the 16mm F4 image, which was at +0.2 EV with respect to the center. This is excellent result and shows that Adobe can do a good job creating the lens profiles.

                                                                     

                                                                    Obviously, the Nikon 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 ED VR lens profile has an issue.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                      photodougbarefoot Level 1

                                                                      Great, thanks trshaner. do i have to do that with each lens? camera? or is that a universal import default? I am using the Sony AR7 and even with a zeiss lens, the correction is better in every case. I also use a canon 5d and a bunch of lenses with that.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        LR Defaults are normally specific to camera so you'd want to set your LR Defaults once for each camera, but not once for each lens, unless LR's lens-matching was coming up with the wrong thing.

                                                                         

                                                                        Specifically, on the Lens Corrections - Basic tab you check Enable Profile Corrections and Remote Chromatic Aberration, and on the Profile tab you set the Setup to Default, then save those as your new LR Defaults for the camera.

                                                                         

                                                                        This is what I have as my LR Defaults for each camera:

                                                                        • 33. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                          photodougbarefoot Level 1

                                                                          Thank you Modesto. I'm not Lazy, i promise. I shoot live festivals, sometimes thirty bands a day with 3 cameras and a dozen lenses over the course of the day (5000 images). Each night i have to upload (color corrected, cropped, captioned, etc.) about 100 images to   http://www.gettyimages.com   (search "Douglas Mason" in EDITORIAL for pix). I'm usually editing from the end of the show till 5 am. Anything to get the process more automated to start would really help. Do you think your problem was the preset for that particular lens or was it the fact that it was applied by default/automatically? if i check an example of each lens, do you think that would eliminate the problem that you had? Does everyone get to see this post? or is it just you and me? i guess i should post to the "reply to original discussion" instead of "Reply". I'm new at the discussion group thing, you can let me know what is best.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            Most lens profiles are fine.  I know of two, including the one discussed, here, that have anomalies near the edges.

                                                                             

                                                                            This is a public forum and everyone gets to see each of our posts.

                                                                             

                                                                            Reply to original just replies to the initial post instead of one of the replies further down, so it depends on which post you’re replying to, the initial one, or a later reply.

                                                                             

                                                                            You can have private discussions with someone if need be, by clicking on the poster’s name/profile and then clicking Send Message over on their profile page, but if what asking or answering is relevant to the current thread then leave it in the public forum so others can benefit who might read the discussion, later.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                              Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                                              Doug, not saying you are lazy, or I am. My point is that if I had the problem I have had with a looming deadline, like you do, I would have missed it; it took me 2 days and some very valuable help from the forum to figure out what went wrong, how to correct it and establish I had not gone mad. As a result, I am looking at any automation I apply very carefully; the automation did not help. Be very careful with automation, automation is great when all goes well and a real problem when it stops working.

                                                                               

                                                                              The problem is that the profile supplied by Adobe for that lens has a fault which is only obvious when the lens is wide open (f/3.5 to f/5.6) above f/5.6 there are no problems. Most lens profiles are fine, but one of mine is not, curiously the newest one. It is not a prime lens but it is not cheap neither and it is offered as the standard lens for Nikon D600, Nikon D610, Nikon D800 and Nikon D810, which are not cheap cameras neither. I cannot fault Adobe, they cannot test every single lens profile at every setting, it is just no realistic, but I would be a much happier customer when they fix the profile.

                                                                               

                                                                              Because you photopgraph concerts with a lot of black backgrounds you might never get issues with vignetting (some nice shots by the way).

                                                                              • 36. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                                photodougbarefoot Level 1

                                                                                It's true, complex backgrounds lend themselves to darker edges, i often add a little vignetting if i have time.

                                                                                I appreciate every ones input, thanks very much.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Lens profiles
                                                                                  Modesto Vega Level 1

                                                                                  Ok, if you look at that photograph in Capture NX-D it does not show any vignetting whatsoever, furthermore it does not show any fringing neither (Lr shows fringing). I am confused, very confused. Is Capture NX-D correcting vignetting and fringing automatically? If so, why Lr cannot do the same?

                                                                                   

                                                                                  P.S.: Up until now I had taken the view that a poor ignorant amateur should not give credit to all the discussions about Lr having trouble with rendering of NEF files. I don't think I subscribe to that view any more. I am definitely struggling to get Lr to render my photos the way I take them and look in camera (in camera = inspecting the histograms and clipping on the camera display and using Nikon's proprietary software).