1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Mar 22, 2015 6:51 AM by ShinyDawn999

    Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue

    ShinyDawn999 Level 1

      heyz! yesterday i changed my monitor profile from srgb to prophoto rgb while viewing some images in photoshop. they displayed the same colors after the change, but today i opened photoshop again and with the same images and all the colors were dissaturated. ive done some search and found the probable cause is a ”broken” monitor profile, or one that doesnt match its capabilities. i changed to adobe rgb, reopened photoshop and that image seems to look right, but i think still not how i remember it from yesterday. my question is: is this really the problem and is there a way i can find whats the largest color space my monitor can display without reading its tech book?( cos its long lost)

       

      thanks!

       

      ps: when changing the monitor profile to prophoto i also played with color settings in ps and set it to prophoto/adobe rgb, but that image has an embedded profile and i chose preserve embedded profile when opening it, so i dont think thats the problem.

        • 1. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
          JJMack Most Valuable Participant

          Your monitor profile is set into your system configuration not in Photoshop.  If you use a hardware calibrator ant its software.  When you calibrate you monitor the software will will configure you system to set the profile created in the process.

           

          In Photoshop the color setting you set are for the color space you will be editing your images in. That usually one of three RGB color spaces ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB or sRGB.  And how to handle mismatches Opening, Placing,and pasting.

           

          For example.

          Capture.jpg

          • 2. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            You're making a mess of everything. Stop right there and go back to defaults.

             

            If you have a specific problem with how Photoshop displays your files, it's better if you just tell us what the problem is. There's usually a simple solution.

             

            <EDITED>

            • 3. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
              ShinyDawn999 Level 1

              well i think its logical to start with the monitor profile. how do i know what the largest space it can handle is? i mean.. does it say anywhere in control panel or something like that?

              • 4. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                If there's a question here it's pretty vague. So, here's how it works, in general terms:

                 

                A monitor profile is a description of the monitor's native color space. And as such it also defines the gamut of your monitor. But the profile doesn't actually "handle" anything, it doesn't do anything - it's just a description.

                 

                Photoshop's color management system is where things are handled. Here, the document color profile is converted, on the fly, into the monitor profile, and these modified RGB values are sent to the monitor. That's all there is to it - a straight and perfectly normal profile conversion. RGB values are remapped to produce the same color.

                 

                Any profile can be converted into any other. But any colors in the source color space that would fall outside the target color space, are just clipped to the gamut limit, and they're effectively gone forever. If you have a ProPhoto file displayed on a standard monitor, it's reasonable to assume that a lot of gamut clipping has occurred before it hits the screen, because the monitor color space is a lot smaller.

                 

                A standard traditional monitor has a native color space that is very close to sRGB. That's why you can use sRGB as display profile, although of course a calibrator will make one that is much more accurate. This is also why sRGB is the standard for web, because it will display roughly right even without any color management.

                 

                Some monitors have a larger color space, and are close to Adobe RGB. These are relatively expensive and are known as wide gamut. If you have such a monitor, it can only be used with full end-to-end color management. In the absence of color management, sRGB material will not display correctly on these monitors, but considerably oversaturated. This is the implication you have to accept when you buy a wide gamut monitor.

                • 5. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                  ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                  So if i open a prophoto rgb image in photoshop and i choose preseve embedded profile with relative colorimetric, for example, a 255 blue from the original profile of the image is remapped to 255 blue in the profile of my monitor so i will see a less saturated blue than in the original image profile? i have to say my head is kind of exploding right now..sorry for the trouble.

                  • 6. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                    JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                    You monitor profile is used by your operating system the in your display adaptors device driver.   Photoshop will also use it when rendering your image on your display.   However you do not edit images for your display.  You edit them in a standard color space. If you do not have and devices the have a wide color space or plan to send out images file to be printed by a outfit the offers wide gamut printing you should edit in sRGB color space.  If you shoot RAW convert to 16Bit  sRGB. You will have a bit more latitude color tones should be smoother.   When you save as PSD to preserve you worn in 16bit color. Also save Web and print file.   Web supports PNG and Jpeg and Print providers mostly want Jpeg  files in sRGB color space jpeg file format doe not support transparency and only supports 8 bit color so when you save a jpeg from a 16 bit color document Photoshop save the jpeg file in 8 bit color depth.  When you print from Photoshop and have Photoshop handle the colors you provide you printer Paper&Ink profile.  Photoshop converts your image  colors from the color space is is edited in to your printers color space.  Just like Photoshop coverts your images colors to your displays profile when Photoshop displays you image on your display.   When you soft proof you image for printing three profiles are used.  The image's color space profile, You displays Profile and your Printer profile.  Photoshop tries render on you display an image the will look as close as it can on you display as it will looked printed on your printer.   Your display and printer have different color capabilities.

                     

                    If you choose to preserve an images color profile during open.  You will edit the image in the images color space not the default color space you set into your color settings..

                    .

                    • 7. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      ShinyDawn999 wrote:

                       

                      So if i open a prophoto rgb image in photoshop and i choose preseve embedded profile with relative colorimetric, for example, a 255 blue from the original profile of the image is remapped to 255 blue in the profile of my monitor so i will see a less saturated blue than in the original image profile? i have to say my head is kind of exploding right now..sorry for the trouble.

                      Bad example, because a 255 proPhoto blue is way, way beyond what can be reproduced on any monitor. So it gets brutally clipped.

                       

                      Here's a better example:

                       

                      displayCM.png

                       

                      Note that the RGB numbers are recalculated to produce the same color in the new color space. This is in fact th whole of color management summed up.

                      • 8. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                        ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                        so what if i set the working space in photoshop to prophoto for example, what role does that play?

                        • 9. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          The working space is just the default. If the file has an embedded profile that will normally override it.

                           

                          This is set under color management policies in color settings - but the only sensible setting here is "preserve embedded profiles". The other alternatives should not be touched, except under very special circumstances, and you really know what you're doing. If you don't you can quickly find yourself in a complete mess with no way out.

                          • 10. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                            ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                            My aim IS to really know, even tho right now...

                            • 11. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                              ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                              does the rendering intent in the color settings refer to how the conversion between color spaces behaves? so a pro photo viewed on srgb with perceptual is different than with absolute colorimetric?

                              • 12. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Monitor profiles use relative colorimetric, which means that out of gamut colors are hard clipped to nearest color on gamut boundary. You can't change that.

                                 

                                V4 monitor profiles also support other rendering intents, but v4 is not widely implemented yet, and should be avoided. They cause problems in many applications.

                                 

                                Other than that I'll have to read up on how rendering intents are supported/implemented in various scenarios, I'm not fully up to speed on that. Thanks for giving me the push

                                • 13. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                  ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                  let me ask this again if i may, how do i know what profile is best for my monitor? cos i can choose from a long list of profiles, including srgb, prophoto or adobe 1998. they all show in the dropdown list in the os advanced display settings.

                                  • 14. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    You don't choose a monitor profile as such. There's no "choice" but the right one.

                                     

                                    As I said above, the monitor profile is a description of the monitor's native color space. That description has to be accurate; or Photoshop will not display correctly. The conversion/remapping that Photoshop does will be wrong and produce the wrong numbers.

                                     

                                    This is why you use a calibrator. After it is finished with the basic adjustments, it creates this description, the profile, by measuring color patches on screen. So then you have an icc profile which is an accurate description of the monitor in its now calibrated state.

                                     

                                    The profile is set as default at system level, by the calibration software, and Photoshop finds it there and does the conversion automatically, as the image is displayed. Move a slider, and Photoshop converts again and shows the updated result on screen.

                                     

                                    If you don't have a calibrator, you need to use the profile which is closest to the monitor's actual behavior. For a standard, traditional monitor, this is sRGB IEC61966-2.1. This is the Windows default. It won't be entirely accurate, but often close enough.

                                     

                                    For wide gamut monitors, the closest is Adobe RGB.

                                     

                                    Monitor manufacturers often ship their own profiles which get installed with the CD, or through Windows Update. These are surprisingly often defective and should always be avoided. There's no benefit over sRGB (or Adobe RGB) anyway.

                                    • 15. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                      JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                      You either use the profile the display manufacturer provides or you calibrate you display with a hardware calibrator and its software.  The software will user the hardware puck to measure your displays colors.  Using that information the software will write a color profile for your display. It will the set your systems configuration to use that coror profile for your display.   The Display device driver will use that profile to load its LUT (look up table) for your display.  When Photoshop need to use your displays color Profile it will look at your system configuration to know which should be used for your display.  You make no setting in Photoshop for your display other then the one in your Photoshop preferences fou Display Resolution.  For all the system has is the number of Pixels are on the display like 1600x1200..  There is information as to what size  your display is.  My desktop 20" displays its 1600x1200 ate 100DPI. My Laptop 15" displays it 1600x1200 pixels at 133 DPI My Surface Pro 3 displays 2160x1440 pixels are 216 DPI it has a 3:2 Aspect Ratio where my other displays have a 4:3 Aspect Ratio,  I Also have a 23" 16:9 Aspect Ratio it displays 1920x1080 Pixels at 100 DPI.  There are many display resolution.   Most Desktop Displays are around 100DPI.   The new 24"  4K displays are the exception the display 3840x2160 pixels at 180DPI

                                      • 16. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Just to be clear, the calibration LUT that is loaded into the video card is not part of the color management chain and is as such irrelevant here. That's just a basic, global adjustment to the monitor itself, and valid everywhere whether color managed or not.

                                         

                                        What we're discussing here is the icc monitor profile, which is a description of the monitor in its current state, whether calibrated or not. You can have an icc profile for an uncalibrated monitor for that matter.

                                         

                                        The difference is that the profile is 3-dimensional and uses many more parameters. The calibration is a simple 1-dimensional correction. So the profile adds another level with much higher precision.

                                        • 17. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                          JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                          Yes the LUT is load when the system is booted but that information is stored into the Monitor Profiles. The one is set into the device driver's color management is the profile that the LUT will be loaded from.

                                          • 18. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                            ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                            ok, i think by now i pretty much understand what the monitor profile is. all i can say about my monitor is its a LG lcd. so.. srgb or adobe rgb?( granted i wont by buying a colorimeter any time soon)

                                            • 19. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                              ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                              hope i didnt upset anyone..

                                              • 20. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                guys.. i need to go ahead and ask some more questions. one is: under color settings in photoshop the description for the preserve embedded profile policy sais when u import colors into a cmyk document, color numbers take precedence over the color appearance. i dont understand why, but thats ok, i just dont understand what if u import colors from a rgb document that are already outside any cmyk space, what happens to these colors when pasted in the cmyk document, do they disappear, will they appear white or..? the other thing is: how can i really understand the Lab color space? i know its device independent, but... how? how do u work with it and why isnt it the only one used if its the same for all devices, furthermore, u will never see its entire gamut, cos its larger than any monitor space?

                                                 

                                                thanks for bearing with me!

                                                • 21. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                  Benjamin Root MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                  RGB images will be converted to the CMYK (printer) colors. As far as LAB color I'd recommend you not try to understand it. A good number of pros who use it don't even understand it.

                                                   

                                                  Benjamin

                                                  • 22. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                    ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                    yes, but if the numbers are preserved, then how will a color outside cmyk gamut( something like 200 255 100 maybe) be represented in cmyk space?

                                                    • 23. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                      Benjamin Root MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                      The green 200 255 100 will be represented as approximately 201 220 94 in CMYK. Here is an example:

                                                      4.jpg

                                                       

                                                      Benjamin

                                                      • 24. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                        ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                        so it finds the closest possible color. then again, that doesnt seem like preserving the numbers..

                                                        • 25. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          ShinyDawn999 wrote:

                                                           

                                                          import colors into a cmyk document, color numbers take precedence over the color appearance.

                                                          Actually you're in different territory here. Obviously you can't preserve RGB numbers in a CMYK file - then it wouldn't be CMYK. It doesn't apply there.

                                                           

                                                          What it applies to is CMYK to CMYK. Here the numbers will be preserved, and there's a very good reason for this: In CMYK you frequently have 100K (K-only) elements that will be printed on the black plate only, like text or other graphic elements. In a CMYK to CMYK conversion this tends to get lost, to be replaced with some four-color value. And in offset printing, this can be a minor disaster for a whole lot of reasons, and you definitely want to avoid it. Even if you may have to readjust colors in the new color space.

                                                           

                                                          Incidentally, "preserve numbers" is the same thing as Edit > Assign profile. "Don't preserve numbers" is the same thing as Edit > Convert to profile. To better understand the difference, the best thing is to see for yourself what happens as you do one or the other on a test file. Keep the histogram open so you can see when numbers are actually changed - you'll see the histogram change shape.

                                                          • 26. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                            ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                            thank you, this answers a lot. so preserve embedded profile only refers to the document u are opening. i think the description is vague, when u read just ”when importing colors into a cmyk document” u think these colors might be both rgb or cmyk. i am left with this question: what really happens when pasting rgb into cmyk?(or cmyk into rgb) from what i understand the rgb space is converted or mapped into the cmyk, but whats the rule that controls this, is it the rendering intent u choose under color settings?

                                                            • 28. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                              Benjamin Root MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                              Anything that is out of gamut is converted to the closest in-gamut color.

                                                               

                                                              Benjamin

                                                              • 29. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                                i have a new question, i sampled a color from a rgb image, the color picker sais its not out of gamut for printing. however, when i use proof colors simulating a cmyk profile, the color changes. how can i ensure this wont happen when printing the image? also, if i make an object with the cmyk numbers shown next to the rgb numbers describing that same color, it appears differently.

                                                                • 30. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                  Level 5

                                                                  ShinyDawn999 wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  i have a new question…

                                                                   

                                                                  By all means start a new thread.

                                                                  • 31. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                    Level 5

                                                                    The color IS SUPPOSED TO CHANGE when you soft proof!  That is the whole idea.

                                                                     

                                                                    It's so you can compensate for the expected changes with adjustment layers as needed.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                      ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                                      i didnt start a new thread because i think its very much related to everything else that was discussed here. so its possible my color will print accurately, even tho the soft proof says otherwise?

                                                                      • 33. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        If any particular color changes when you soft proof (to the actual profile that will be used in printing) - then that color is out of print gamut and there's nothing you can do about it. The purpose of soft proofing is to tell you in advance which colors are unprintable, so that you can decide whether to try to compensate some other way.

                                                                         

                                                                        If you see a general color change in soft proof, your procedure is wrong. That's not supposed to happen - the colors that are in gamut should not change.

                                                                         

                                                                        Don't trust the color picker out-of-gamut warning - it may not relate to the actual CMYK profile you're proofing to, but rather the Photoshop default US web coated (SWOP), which is an extremely narrow CMYK profile. At the very least it should use your working space, but in fact the documentation makes no reference other than "CMYK model", whatever they believe that is.

                                                                         

                                                                        ...

                                                                         

                                                                        Oh, BTW, the usefulness of soft proofing depends very much on your monitor. Unless you have a wide gamut monitor, the monitor gamut is mostly the limiting one. What you see on screen is already soft proofed to sRGB, so to speak - but a lot of stuff may happen outside what your monitor can reproduce, and many perfectly printable colors will never be seen on screen. A wide gamut monitor, however, will cover most CMYK profiles completely, and so soft proofing is much more reliable.

                                                                        • 34. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                          ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                                          my working cmyk space is coated gracol 2006(iso...) and i know the out of gamut warning is always related to the working cmyk space. as i said, i dont get any warning for this color and my proof setup is set to working cmyk. all this considered and what u said above, the color shouldnt change when soft proofing, yet it does. a little, but enough to make it not ok.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                            ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                                            Oh, BTW, the usefulness of soft proofing depends very much on your monitor. Unless you have a wide gamut monitor, the monitor gamut is mostly the limiting one. What you see on screen is already soft proofed to sRGB, so to speak - but a lot of stuff may happen outside what your monitor can reproduce, and many perfectly printable colors will never be seen on screen. A wide gamut monitor, however, will cover most CMYK profiles completely, and so soft proofing is much more reliable.

                                                                             

                                                                            this takes me back to when i first started the discussion. how do i know what color space to set for my monitor? is it srgb or maybe it can display even adobe rgb, or bigger? how to know?

                                                                            • 36. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              Just as a test to see if this is indeed real, convert a copy to GRACol2006 and compare, and you can also check the histogram for clipping (you can disregard the K channel).

                                                                               

                                                                              If the clipping is real, that's just how it is and you have to live with it. That particular color cannot be reproduced in GRACol2006. But there may be ways to compensate - that's up to you.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                If you don't know whether your monitor is wide gamut or not, it probably isn't. That fact is usually well advertised.

                                                                                 

                                                                                They also tend to be somewhat expensive. The least expensive wide gamut monitor on the market is the Dell U2413 at around $450-ish, but the really good ones are at least twice that.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                                  ShinyDawn999 Level 1

                                                                                  is it mentioned anywhere in windows so i can find out?

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Monitor/Photoshop/Color profile issue
                                                                                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                    No. Check the specs for the unit (google it if you don't have them).

                                                                                     

                                                                                    But again, if you don't know it probably isn't. About 99% of the world's monitors are standard gamut models.

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