1 2 Previous Next 72 Replies Latest reply on May 25, 2007 7:58 PM by Newsgroup_User

    BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR

    cratica Level 1
      First off let me say I'm VERY unimpressed with Microsoft. Many, many install issues.

      As far as Director is concerned, it does run but runs very slow. The app I'm creating has a lot of moving text sprites on the screen with a 3D window up above. Currently, in authoring or runtime, the game is not playable any longer. Far too slow. On XP I was getting 30+ fps, and now am getting 3-5fps. Even some of the 2d screen fades are slow.

      Furthermore, my 3D scene is garbled with lots of z-sorting errors. (polys fighting to be drawn regardless of their distance to the camera). It looks like a mess.

      My system. Dell Dimension 9100 with 2GB RAM, 3GHZ Intel dual core, Nvidia 7800GT video, etc...

      Most of this post is information but I do have a question. Any other people have this massive slow down with their director apps? Any one else have z-sorting errors in their 3D models that were not there before VIsta?

      Any thoughts on fixing these problems?

        • 1. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
          cratica Level 1
          I've unfortunately determined what the problem is. Director MX2004 with the latest update does not support hardware rendering because it doesn't support anything greater than DirectX 7.0 apparently. Windows Vista doesn't support DirectX 7.0. I tried to force the renderer to use DirectX 7.0 under Vista and it was not pretty. 1 fps and nothing drew properly.

          The only supported renderer right now is #software. That explains the z-sorting errors and the slow frame rate I was getting.

          So.... I'm in a world of hurt. I upgraded my development system to Vista only to find out that Director MX's 3D "engine" does not currently support Vista.

          Does anyone know when a patch will be released to make Director MX directX 9/Vista compatible?

          I'm in a bad situation now as I have a demo of our product due out next week and development has been ground to a halt because of this. Any help would be appreciated.
          • 2. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
            mockworld
            I figure we'll just have to wait until Adobe releases version 11 for the fix:

            http://www.adobe.com/products/director/special/crossproduct/faq.html

            Steve
            • 3. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
              cratica Level 1
              I hope Adobe provides us with a patch that lets us use directX capabilities on Vista.
              • 4. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                cratica Level 1
                Besides this also means that the shockwave 3D viewer also only supports software on Vista. There are hundreds of thousands of people this will effect.

                I'm looking at the Shockwave 3D viewer utility right now and it only let's me use a software renderer, so it's not just Director that needs patching.
                • 5. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                  tedalde2 Level 2
                  I'm just going to change my code to detect either #directx7_0 or #opengl. It's something that should be done in any project anyway. If neither is present, then shunt the user to a screen that says "Program won't run... here's probable reasons... Windows Vista... multiple monitors..." etc. "Go find a friend with XP or a Macintosh..."

                  Looks like that's all you can do.
                  • 6. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                    Level 7
                    Wow, this is staggeringly bad news...

                    I had no idea this might be the case (I'm still just running XP).

                    Can you tell us if director's 2D performance is affected under Vista please?

                    Thanks

                    Richard Smith
                    www.funpods.com


                    • 7. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                      cratica Level 1
                      Yes, this is incredibly bad news.

                      Unfortunately "Go find a friend with XP or a mac" is not sufficient in the professional world.

                      We need to get a fix for this ASAP Adobe.

                      Richard, Directdraw (2D) is also part of DirectX so everything is effected. 2D is not nearly as effected as 3D however.
                      • 8. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                        Level 7
                        Cheers for the update on the 2D, I had hoped shockwave used it's own sprite
                        engine that didn't rely on DirectX.

                        Director 11 is pencilled for second half of 07 according to Adobe's site.

                        Surely they wouldn't release a version of Director where the 3D Xtra can't
                        run on Vista? But even if they do fix it, that's an awful long wait where
                        anyone with a new PC can't play our games. :(

                        Thanks for alerting us.

                        Richard Smith


                        • 9. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                          shockland.com
                          Yes this is very very bad news....

                          In this link http://www.adobe.com/products/director/special/crossproduct/faq.html it says that next major release will assumed to be in second half of 2007 and there is nothing mentioning about 3d enhancements.

                          I was 27 years old when we first start to write our wishes about shockwave3d engine in this forum and now I'm 33 .

                          Adobe please do something about this old 3D engine....

                          Ege Karaosmanoğgu
                          www.shockland.com
                          • 10. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                            Grampa Gar
                            Yes, this initially seems like a very bad thing indeed, but there could be a silver lining here. Perhaps this will be the impetus Adobe needs to make Shockwave DirectX 9.x compatible. We may finally get some vertex and pixel shaders and if the Z-sorting errors cratica writes of are endemic to the Shockwave/Vista environment, then maybe Adobe will give Shockwave a decent Z-buffer as well and solve some of the transparency and decal issues. HELLO ADOBE...!!! ARE YOU LISTENING??!!
                            • 11. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                              cratica Level 1

                              I'm far less concerned with asking for additional features and enhancements as I am with getting this thing to work with Vista.

                              HELP ADOBE HELP
                              • 12. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                Nickname_is_none
                                Thanks to Cratica for raising this issue.

                                Is this problem inherent in .exe's, as I distribute all of my content (2d and 3d) on CD's.
                                • 13. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                  tedalde2 Level 2
                                  It appears the problem would show with any Director 3D using the #directx7_0 renderer playing on Vista. It would show in all runtime environments, Authoring, Projector, or Shockwave.

                                  I don't have Vista and can't test/see this yet. Can someone verify that OpenGL rendering still works with Vista? When testing for OpenGL, be sure you only have one display monitor enabled as Director will not show #opengl as an option otherwise.
                                  • 14. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                    Level 7
                                    "tedalde2" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                    news:erccpf$9fq$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                    > Can someone verify that OpenGL
                                    > rendering still works with Vista?

                                    Doesn't look like it.

                                    Dell Dimension 9200
                                    Vista Business
                                    ATI X1300
                                    One monitor

                                    put getRendererServices().rendererDeviceList
                                    -- [#software]


                                    • 15. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                      tedalde2 Level 2
                                      Yikes. A bad situation is worse. No openGL, no directx.

                                      What about it, Adobe?
                                      • 16. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                        cratica Level 1
                                        the only option available is software when using "putrenderingservices()renderedeviceList" on my system as well.

                                        I can force it to directx7 from within the movie property panel but as I posted earlier, the system comes to it's knees AND strange things happen to the polys. Some objects do not draw at all while others don't draw with textures, stretched polys, pretty much a mess. A mess at about 1/2 frame per second.
                                        • 17. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                          raschko
                                          There are several reason why our video games and the like will not run on vista considering the "TRUST" issue, and it running (trying to) on x10.

                                          Graphic cards out now aren't flying off the shelves with 10 just yet (only assuming).
                                          And the "TRUST" issue will block any port, program,protocol, that is not endorsed by Microsoft.
                                          Unless you have some type of extention like an adaptor;
                                          Lets say for a hi def monitor. Yup...it'll block that too!!

                                          It even prevents audio recording and other captured media.
                                          Which halts making sound effects and the like.

                                          Then again its only the first release so thing might change.
                                          As for Adobe shifting gears for our 3d engine, lets hope so!!
                                          *good thoughts all around*
                                          • 18. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                            Level 7
                                            I don't know if this is a DRM issue. It just looks like Shockwave 3D has
                                            serious compatibility issues with Vista.

                                            Another strange thing happens with getRendererServices().getHardwareInfo().
                                            Director reports "unknown" for vendor, model, and version. This is with an
                                            ATI card.

                                            "raschko" <kookiedough30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
                                            news:ercq0k$pc6$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                            > There are several reason why our video games and the like will not run on
                                            > vista
                                            > considering the "TRUST" issue, and it running (trying to) on x10.
                                            >
                                            > Graphic cards out now aren't flying off the shelves with 10 just yet (only
                                            > assuming).
                                            > And the "TRUST" issue will block any port, program,protocol, that is not
                                            > endorsed by Microsoft.
                                            > Unless you have some type of extention like an adaptor;
                                            > Lets say for a hi def monitor. Yup...it'll block that too!!
                                            >
                                            > It even prevents audio recording and other captured media.
                                            > Which suck for making sound effects and the like.
                                            >
                                            > Then again its only the first release so thing might change.
                                            > As for Adobe shifting gears for our 3d engine, lets hope so!!
                                            > *good thoughts all around*
                                            >


                                            • 19. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                              Level 7
                                              Hmm. Yeah, I can force the browser plugin to use DirectX7, but I'm not
                                              seeing any performance problem.

                                              I tested one of my benchmark shockwave files, and the frame rate increased
                                              from 108 fps (using the software renderer) to 760 fps.

                                              I do get a warning message, though, about the dangers of changing the 3D
                                              Renderer setting from Obey Content Settings. Whatever.


                                              "cratica" <cratica@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
                                              news:ercofp$nnh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                              > the only option available is software when using
                                              > "putrenderingservices()renderedeviceList" on my system as well.
                                              >
                                              > I can force it to directx7 from within the movie property panel but as I
                                              > posted earlier, the system comes to it's knees AND strange things happen
                                              > to the
                                              > polys. Some objects do not draw at all while others don't draw with
                                              > textures,
                                              > stretched polys, pretty much a mess. A mess at about 1/2 frame per
                                              > second.
                                              >
                                              > This stinks, we have to have a solution ADOBE!!
                                              >
                                              > I still have not heard back from support on this issue. Will keep
                                              > everyone
                                              > posted.
                                              >


                                              • 20. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                a¿ex Level 1
                                                quote:

                                                Originally posted by: cratica
                                                the only option available is software when using "putrenderingservices()renderedeviceList" on my system as well.



                                                it surprises, that you get anything other than a script error from that line.
                                                :-P

                                                quote:

                                                Originally posted by: cratica
                                                I can force it to directx7 from within the movie property panel but as I posted earlier, the system comes to it's knees AND strange things happen to the polys. Some objects do not draw at all while others don't draw with textures, stretched polys, pretty much a mess. A mess at about 1/2 frame per second.

                                                This stinks, we have to have a solution ADOBE!!

                                                I still have not heard back from support on this issue. Will keep everyone posted.


                                                just out of interest have you tried the newest version of shockwave ?
                                                they just released version 10.1.4.020 some days ago.

                                                does that change anything to the better ?


                                                • 21. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                  Level 7
                                                  Oh, and running that same benchmark file using the OpenGL renderer, not so
                                                  good: ~190 fps. Same results in IE and Firefox.

                                                  "shandar" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                                  news:erd84t$cqd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                  > Hmm. Yeah, I can force the browser plugin to use DirectX7, but I'm not
                                                  > seeing any performance problem.
                                                  >
                                                  > I tested one of my benchmark shockwave files, and the frame rate increased
                                                  > from 108 fps (using the software renderer) to 760 fps.
                                                  >
                                                  > I do get a warning message, though, about the dangers of changing the 3D
                                                  > Renderer setting from Obey Content Settings. Whatever.
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  • 22. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                    Level 7

                                                    "a?ex" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                                    news:erd868$cvk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                    > just out of interest have you tried the newest version of shockwave ?
                                                    > they just released version 10.1.4.020 some days ago.

                                                    Yes

                                                    > does that change anything to the better ?

                                                    No


                                                    • 23. BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                      cratica Level 1

                                                      No response from Adobe support yet.
                                                      • 24. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                        Level 7

                                                        "cratica" <cratica@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
                                                        news:ergd1h$llm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                        > It's been 2 1/2 days since my inquiry to customer service/support and I
                                                        > have
                                                        > heard ZERO from them. They state on their website when you fill the form
                                                        > out
                                                        > that I would be contacted within 24 hours.
                                                        >
                                                        > So I guess once you pay them $1200 big ones for their software, they turn
                                                        > a
                                                        > deaf ear? Where is ADOBE support at? Should it take 2 1/2 days to
                                                        > provide an
                                                        > answer?

                                                        Hmmm that's not good enough is it?

                                                        I am trying to see if my contacts at shockwave.com can get an answer from
                                                        them any quicker. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.

                                                        Richard Smith



                                                        • 25. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                          ensamblador Level 1

                                                          My partner evaluates a copy of the new release of discreet 3dsmax9. Guess what, doesn't have a w3d exporter, from one version (8) to the next one (9) they removed the exporter plugin. Further explanations from discreet point to an incompatibility issue, "that will be solved in the next service pack (3dsmax)".

                                                          I don´t understand something, who provides the APIS, compression algorithms, formats, data model for the exporter works?. The exporter used since 3dsmax6 to 8 was the same, what about now?. About this topic and other issues related to this, i think there is two possibilities:

                                                          1)People from adobe are working in a new plugin, obviously more powerful and according to the new capabilities of the new sw3d engine (which we don´t know nothing). This plugin will allow us to export more rich 3d content (pixel shaders, rt shadows, bump, procedural textures, etc. And this 3d content will be scriptable with new 3d lingo (maybe 2.0?) and finally this content will be rendered with DX3D10 in WV.

                                                          2)People from adobe are sleeping.

                                                          • 26. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                            Level 7
                                                            Hi again,

                                                            Would the people who gave feedback about shockwave3D on Vista be kind enough
                                                            to indicate whether they are using the 32Bit or 64Bit versions of both Vista
                                                            and IE. (from what I've read you can use a 32bit IE on 64bit Vista to avoid
                                                            plugin issues, can anyone confirm????)

                                                            Especially Shadar, as the only member so far who has no performance hit.

                                                            This may help to show up any patterns. Thanks!

                                                            Richard Smith


                                                            • 27. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                              Level 7

                                                              "Richard" <donotuse@funpods.com> wrote
                                                              > Would the people who gave feedback about shockwave3D on Vista be kind
                                                              > enough to indicate whether they are using the 32Bit or 64Bit versions of
                                                              > both Vista and IE. (from what I've read you can use a 32bit IE on 64bit
                                                              > Vista to avoid plugin issues, can anyone confirm????)

                                                              32 bit version of Vista.

                                                              I just installed the latest ATI Catalyst driver, released yesterday (2/21).
                                                              OpenGL performance is much better - frame rates are around 85% of DirectX7
                                                              frame rates. Director is still only detecting the software renderer, though.


                                                              • 28. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                cratica Level 1
                                                                32 bit version here as well. I'm sticking with 32-bit since my understanding is that there are even more issues with the 64 bit version.

                                                                Shadar does have a performance hit, so it does effect everyone. He indicated that his computer as well only supports software shader. Sure, if someone is moving one sprite across the screen and they are getting 100fps, it wouldn['t matter if they run software or hardware. For those of us using a lof of 3D or even a lot of 2d sprite movement, the hit is HUGE. Plus, software rendering will not render many things properly as there is no z-buffer.

                                                                ADOBE???????
                                                                • 29. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                  Level 7

                                                                  > Shadar does have a performance hit, so it does effect everyone. He
                                                                  > indicated
                                                                  > that his computer as well only supports software shader. Sure, if someone
                                                                  > is
                                                                  > moving one sprite across the screen and they are getting 100fps, it
                                                                  > wouldn['t
                                                                  > matter if they run software or hardware. For those of us using a lof of
                                                                  > 3D or
                                                                  > even a lot of 2d sprite movement, the hit is HUGE. Plus, software
                                                                  > rendering
                                                                  > will not render many things properly as there is no z-buffer.

                                                                  Yep, don't worry, I realize nobody has it working properly on Vista, I
                                                                  passed all that on via shockwave.com. So 64bit is definitely not the causal
                                                                  factor anyway.

                                                                  By the way, appologies for the typo with Shandar's user name.

                                                                  Richard Smith


                                                                  • 30. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                    Ritesh_Banglani
                                                                    Hi,

                                                                    I am the product manager for Director and Shockwave at Adobe. We are very much aware of this issue, and have a two-step plan to address the performance issue on Vista.

                                                                    1. In the very short term, we will release a Vista-compliant version of the Shockwave player, which will force the movie to use DirectX 7. While the performance is still likely to be poorer than on XP, it will be better than what you see today (with software rendering).

                                                                    2. With the next release of Director, we plan to move to DirectX 9.x.

                                                                    I appreciate the problems developers are facing, and assure you that the team is working very hard to fix these performance issues.

                                                                    -Ritesh
                                                                    • 31. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                      Level 7
                                                                      Thanks Ritesh for sharing that information directly with us.

                                                                      Could you indicate when the next version of Director is due (rather than the
                                                                      vague second half of 2007 on the website) as we really need to know when the
                                                                      performance issue will be fixed on Vista to satisfy client expectations.

                                                                      Can you say if the DirectX9.x based 3D engine will be a straight port of the
                                                                      existing feature set, or will it add functionality like hardware T&L or
                                                                      pixel shaders?

                                                                      Also will it fix the various z buffer issues with alpha mapped polys or
                                                                      allow the .w3D format to retain multiple UV maps for pain free light
                                                                      mapping?

                                                                      Thank you for your time

                                                                      Richard Smith


                                                                      • 32. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                        Level 7
                                                                        Careful there, Richard. You might scare him off. 8)

                                                                        Well, I just installed Win XP on my Vista machine - too many compatibility
                                                                        problems with Vista. In an earlier post, I listed frame rates for a
                                                                        benchmark shockwave 3d file. With Vista, I was getting 780 fps under DX7.
                                                                        With XP, I'm getting 800 fps. The ATI driver is the same version.


                                                                        • 33. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                          Level 7
                                                                          > Careful there, Richard. You might scare him off. 8)

                                                                          Worth a try though eh? ;)

                                                                          Richard


                                                                          • 34. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                            Level 7
                                                                            > Worth a try though eh? ;)

                                                                            Ooh, he's gone.

                                                                            It was rather exciting while it lasted, though. Like seeing Halley's Comet,
                                                                            or watching one of those flowers that blooms once every 97 years.


                                                                            • 35. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                              Level 7
                                                                              Damn, it was that question about alpha maps wasn't it? I feel so responsible
                                                                              for ruining our one single point of contact, like a message from another
                                                                              planet, and I just jogged the receiver dish.

                                                                              > It was rather exciting while it lasted, though. Like seeing Halley's
                                                                              > Comet, or watching one of those flowers that blooms once every 97 years.

                                                                              At least we can say 'we were there'. Maybe I should get some T-shirts
                                                                              printed.

                                                                              Cheers ;)

                                                                              Richard


                                                                              • 36. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                                Ritesh_Banglani Level 1
                                                                                Still here, guys. I cannot give an exact release date for the next version, but it will likely be towards the end of the year rather than the middle. The Shockwave Vista release (with DirectX 7) will be out sooner - in 6 weeks or so.

                                                                                We will NOT upgrade the 3D feature set in the forthcoming Director release. Requirements like new platform support, performance and text engine enhancements are very urgent, and we don't want to delay this release beyond 2007. However, we are committed to maintaining Shockwave as the leading 3D format on the web, and you WILL see 3D enhancements in a subsequent release. The move to DirectX 9 is a signal of our long term commitment to Shockwave 3D.

                                                                                I know this is not the answer many of you are looking for. I appreciate your patience, and hope to keep the channels of communications open!

                                                                                -Ritesh
                                                                                ritesh.banglani@adobe.com
                                                                                • 37. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                                  Level 7
                                                                                  Hi Ritesh,

                                                                                  Wow, thanks for the further info! That is genuinely useful in terms of
                                                                                  managing client expectations, and the first concrete info I've seen about
                                                                                  new 3D features, even if they are two versions away. The fact that the
                                                                                  engine is being updated at all is superb news.

                                                                                  Thanks for taking the time to communicate with us from Planet Adobe.

                                                                                  Looks like the dish is still working, even after I kicked it.

                                                                                  Cheers

                                                                                  Richard Smith


                                                                                  • 38. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                                    Level 7
                                                                                    Look at Ritesh, going all chatty on us! :)

                                                                                    So what do you think of Director?


                                                                                    • 39. Re: BAD NEWS WITH VISTA/DIRECTOR
                                                                                      Level 7

                                                                                      "Richard" wrote in message
                                                                                      > I feel so responsible for ruining our one single point of contact, like a
                                                                                      > message from another planet, and I just jogged the receiver dish.

                                                                                      <lol>

                                                                                      I like that. Very Arthur Dent-ish.


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