14 Replies Latest reply on Nov 5, 2017 4:14 PM by johnrellis

    Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge

    Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

      I am new to Lightroom but have used Bridge for a long time.

      My Bridge keywords have evolved over time and various hierarchies and parent keywords have been changed many times to reflect my needs.

      I find that when I import older images into Lightroom, older parent keywords, long deleted from Bridge, reappear in the Lightroom workspace.

      When I update metadata in Lightroom and write the data back to the original files, the old hierarchies and parent keywords reappear in Bridge and in the file's keyword list.

      I cannot find a way around this problem.

        • 1. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          What file type(s) are having this issue? Are you sure the files with keywords deleted in LR are in the same folder in Bridge where you still see the deleted keywords?

          • 2. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
            Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

            It occurs with any file type in particular I am using dng and jpg regularly.

             

             

             

            By experimentation Lightroom seems to show the long deleted parent keyword which once contained a particular keyword. The parent keywords were EXCLUDED in Bridge when they were added to an image but they show in Lightroom.

             

             

             

            A strange but related issue is that sometimes Lightroom displays a keyword which was altered and is no longer seen in Bridge.

             

            e.g. I changed the keyword “Howgills” to “Howgill Fells” about 5 years ago in about 50 images.

             

            So now Bridge displays “Howgill Fells” only, as I would expect, whereas Lightroom displays BOTH “Howgills” and “Howgill Fells”

             

            I’m baffled as to where Lightroom is finding this information – somehow it appears to be hidden within the images’ EXIF data but is not visible in Bridge.

             

             

             

            Regards,

             

            Peter

            • 3. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
              DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

              Quote "

              A strange but related issue is that sometimes Lightroom displays a keyword which was altered and is no longer seen in Bridge.

               

              e.g. I changed the keyword “Howgills” to “Howgill Fells” about 5 years ago in about 50 images.

               

              So now Bridge displays “Howgill Fells” only, as I would expect, whereas Lightroom displays BOTH “Howgills” and “Howgill Fells”

               

              Just some thoughts, so you are aware;

              a. Lightroom by default stores the info in the Catalog file and reads and writes from the catalog. Lightroom can also write info to the .xmp file if you choose to do so, this allows ACR/Bridge to access the work done in Lightroom.

              b. Bridge stores the info in the file header, since it cannot read or write to the Lightroom catalog.

              c. Lightroom when importing files will read info from the file header.

              d. Lightroom does not update the info in the catalog automatically if you subsequently make changes outside of Lightroom.

              • 4. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Erik Bloodaxe wrote:

                 

                It occurs with any file type in particular I am using dng and jpg regularly.

                 

                By experimentation Lightroom seems to show the long deleted parent keyword which once contained a particular keyword. The parent keywords were EXCLUDED in Bridge when they were added to an image but they show in Lightroom.

                 

                Open one of the DNG or JPEG files in PS and check File> File Info> Description tab> Keywords using PS's XMP reader. If the excluded keywords are showing here they will also show inside LR.

                 

                As DdeGannes mentioned to see Bridge metadata changes inside LR you'll need to select the files inside LR and apply menu item Metadata> 'Read Metadata from File.' Conversely, if you select Metadata> 'Save Metadata to File' (CTRL + S) LR will "overwrite" the Bridge metadata with the keywords visible in LR. It's important to keep the Bridge and LR metadata "synchronized:"

                 

                1) Update LR with any changes made inside Bridge using Metadata> Read Metadata from File from the LR menu for ALL changed files. You should do this BEFORE making ANY keyword changes to a file inside LR.

                 

                2) After making keyword change inside LR apply Metadata> 'Save Metadata to File' immediately so that the changes are written to the file(s), making them visible inside Bridge.

                 

                I'm guessing that somewhere in time keywords were edited in LR and Bridge without following the above "synchronization" steps. If PS's XMP reader shows keywords "excluded" in Bridge then that's probably what happened. If the excluded keywords are NOT showing in XMP (but still visible inside LR) then further investigation is required.

                • 5. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  You can also search and post this issue in the Adobe Bridge forum.

                  • 6. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                    Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

                    I have read all comments with interest, but:

                     

                     

                     

                    ·         No, I have never edited ANYTHING in Lightroom – as I mentioned, I am very new to Lightroom.  All I have done is import images.

                     

                    ·         The problem (displaying keyword parents or resurrecting altered keywords) only occurs with older images which had keywords added in Bridge from a long abandoned keyword hierarchical list.

                     

                    ·         There appears to be no issue with images which have had keywords added in Bridge from my CURRENT keyword hierarchical list.

                    • 7. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                      john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      When you keyword an image in Bridge, it applies the keywords and any related hierarchy that exists at that moment. If you subsequently change the hierarchical list in Bridge, that change wouldn't trickle back down to folders and individual images.

                       

                      To prove this and identify a way forward, choose one of the problem images in Lightroom, and then find it in Explorer/Finder. On what date/time was it modified? Long ago? Before whenever you changed the Bridge hierarchy? Next find it in Bridge and apply some metadata just to tickle Bridge into writing to the DNG/JPG (eg assign a colour label). I think that should cause the keyword/hierarchy to be updated too. Then back in LR, select the image and use Metadata > Read Metadata from File. Are its keywords now correct?

                      • 8. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                        Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

                        Many thanks for your suggestions.

                         

                        I have now discovered that the entire problem disappears if, after importing images into Lightroom, I go to the Metadata Tab and select “Read Metadata from Files”

                         

                        Not sure why I need to do this but I won’t knock it as it works!

                         

                        Problem appears to be solved.

                        • 9. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                          john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          It may be that in attempting to resolve this, you have triggered Bridge's mechanism to write the metadata back to the files. The files had the old metadata when they were first registered or "imported" in LR's catalogue, and that metadata is being updated now you read the metadata again.

                          • 10. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            You can use LR's Library Filter to determine if changes have been made to the metadata that haven't been updated in LR's catalog. Here's an example of filter items. To change an item click on the column title in the Filter bar.

                             

                            • 11. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                              Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

                              I discovered after much wrangling and frustration that Lightroom is writing keywords to a different EXIF location compared to Bridge.  Bridge is not seeing the Lightroom keywords yet Lightroom sees both sets!  Hence Lightroom finds old keywords no longer visible in Bridge.  My solution was to use Phil Harvey's EXIF tool to blank out Hierachical Subject data.  Problem immediately cured!

                              • 12. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                                johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                Lightroom is writing keywords to a different EXIF location compared to Bridge.  Bridge is not seeing the Lightroom keywords yet Lightroom sees both sets! 

                                This is incorrect: By default, both Bridge and LR read and write keywords to the metadata fields XMP:Subject, XMP:HierarchicalSubject, and IPTC:Keywords.  (See below for an extended demonstration.)

                                 

                                One thing that confuses many people is that, once a file is imported into LR, LR will not re-read updated metadata from the file until you  do Metadata > Read Metadata From File. And by default, LR will not write changed metadata back to the file until you do Metadata > Save Metadata To File (unless you have checked the option Catalog Settings > Metadata > Automatically Write Changes Into XMP).

                                 

                                ----------------------------

                                Here's an extended demonstration showing that Bridge and LR use the same three metadata fields for storing keywords.

                                 

                                Start with a photo 1.jpg with no keywords:

                                Import the photo into LR and verify LR shows no keywords:

                                In Bridge, verify that no keywords are assigned to the photo:

                                In Bridge, assign the keywords A, A1, B, B1:

                                Verify that Bridge has written the keywords to XMP:Subject, XMP:HierarchicalSubject, and IPTC:Keywords:

                                In LR, select 1.jpg, do Metadata > Read From File, and verify the keywords A > A1 and B > B1 are assigned to the photo:

                                In Bridge, unassign B and B1 from 1.jpg:

                                Verify that change has been written to the file:

                                In LR, select 1. jpg, do Metadata > Read Metadata From File, and verify that the photo only has A > A1 assigned:

                                In LR, add the keyword C > C1 to the photo and do Metadata > Save Metadata To File:

                                Verify that the keyword C > C1 has been written to the file:

                                In Bridge, verify that it sees the new keyword C > C1:

                                • 13. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                                  Erik Bloodaxe Level 1

                                  John,

                                   

                                  Many thanks for taking an interest in this issue and the effort you have put in.  Apologies if I have made some false allegations.

                                  Perhaps I didn't make things fully clear, but I will try again.

                                   

                                  By examining EXIF data of many photos, I can see that, in the problem cases, there is different data in the "Keywords" and "Subject" fields compared to "Hierarchical Subject". When any of these photos are imported into Lightroom, I find that all of these fields are read and if the metadata is written from Lightroom, all the fields are written.

                                  How has the different data arisen?

                                  I have always used Bridge to keyword my photos.  I have a hierarchical keyword list which I frequently alter for one reason or another.  Currently, in Bridge Preferences, I have neither "Write Hierarchical Keywords" nor "Read Hierarchical Keywords" checked and "Hierarchical Subject" is not present in the EXIF data created. However, in the past, I have experimented with both the read and write features and I suspect that this is from where the problem has emanated.

                                  It would appear that, if I now change keywords on an older photo (which I frequently do) originally keyworded when "Read" and "Write" were checked, only "Keywords" and "Subject" are updated and "Hierarchical Subject" remains the same as when originally created.  Hence "Hierarchical Subject" contains out of date information which, unfortunately for me, Lightroom was reading.

                                  As I explained earlier, I found that the only cure was to strip "Hierarchical Subject" using the EXIF tool which then gave me a clean slate so to speak.  Everything is now fine with Bridge and Lightroom seeing precisely the same keywords on all photos.

                                  I hope that this explanation is comprehensible and that I now have things correct.  At the very least I have things working as I would like.

                                   

                                  Peter

                                  • 14. Re: Keywords conflict between Lightroom & Bridge
                                    johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                    Your detailed description sounds right to me.  I think LR gives precedence to XMP:HierarchicalSubject over the other two fields because it contains the full hierarchical information about the keywords, which is missing from the other two fields.

                                     

                                    Understanding how any one program uses photo metadata is complicated, and understanding the interaction between different programs is even more complicated!  Because these threads live on "forever" and because the industry has made such a mess of metadata, it's important to make sure we've got accurate information posted.