25 Replies Latest reply on May 26, 2017 7:33 AM by trshaner

    How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?

    wif

      How can I invert pictures in Lightroom ? If I have a black&white negative scanned and imported to LR, there is no possibility to invert this to a "positive". This is possible in Photoshop, why not in LR ?

      WIF

        • 1. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
          john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Because Lightroom is designed for a digital workflow.

           

          To invert pictures, use the Tone Curve and drag its bottom left point to the top left, its top right point to the bottom right.

          • 2. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
            ThomasKaaeColding

            I love working with LR for my digital - but when I want to edit my film camera rolls... I have to go to another program like PS just to invert and save as tiff and THEN import in LR for editing.... expanding the work flow and multiplying the file count (raw AND tiff)

             

            I simply don't get why Adobe don't add an "invert negative" tick ...that inverts the photo but keeps the rest of the develop sliders as they were supposed to. This would enable me to keep the pipeline in LR.

             

            Is there anywhere I can put in a wish or something for the developers... I have many photographer friends that would love to have this option.

             

            Cheers

            • 3. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
              Bob Somrak Level 5

              You should be doing the inverting of the negative in your scanning software.  If your scanning software doesn't invert negatives you need better software.

              • 4. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                A number of others have requested this feature. Please add your vote and detailed opinion to this topic in the official Adobe feedback forum: Lightroom: Ability to invert B&W negative scans to positives.

                • 5. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                  ThomasKaaeColding Level 1

                  @ Bob Nope ... I dont scan... I photograph my negatives with my DSLR.

                  • 6. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                    ThomasKaaeColding Level 1

                    @Johnrellis ...Have done - thanx

                    • 7. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                      Keith_Reeder Level 4

                      ThomasKaaeColding wrote:

                       

                      I simply don't get why Adobe don't add an "invert negative" tick

                       

                      Because I imagine the vast majority of Lr users would have no use for it.

                      • 8. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                        ThomasKaaeColding Level 1

                        That doesn't make mine, and the vast minority's problems any less

                        • 9. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                          markalanthomas Level 1

                          I’ve thought for years that this would be a useful feature, arrogant forum spooks be damned.

                          • 10. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                            Keith_Reeder Level 4

                            So including you, that's - what? - half a dozen?

                             

                            There's nothing remotely arrogant about pointing out that a given "enhancement" is likely to be of minimal, niche interest to most Lr users. Call it managing expectations.

                             

                            It's also pretty intantile to try and characterise the opposing view as "agrrogant", too - do you always go into petulant name-calling mode if someone doesn't share your opinion?


                            Self-evidently the need for a "Negative" button is niche; or after all these years, we'd have heard a lot more about it, from a lot more people - wouldn't we?

                            • 11. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Keith_Reeder wrote:

                               

                              Self-evidently the need for a "Negative" button is niche; or after all these years, we'd have heard a lot more about it, from a lot more people - wouldn't we?

                              As explained already by there is no need for a "button" to invert the image data. Set the Tone Curve as explained at the below link and then save it as a Develop preset with just Tone Curve selected.

                               

                              How to invert colors in Lightroom ~ phototips.biz

                               

                              I do scannerless capture using a DSLR camera and use PS for initial processing with LR for final Toning and cataloging. The DSLR raw image file is NOT compatible with most dedicated scanner software due to differences in the scanner and DSLR profiles. While it is possible to process DSLR B&W negative and Color slide images using only LR the same is not true for color negatives. This is due to the "complexity" in removing the orange mask and correcting the individual RGB channel gamma, which is "unique" to each film type and emulsion batch variation.

                               

                              Mark Segal and I did an extensive study on how to process DSLR B&W negatives, Color negatives and slides using two different workflows.

                               

                              https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film -photographs/

                               

                              PDF with full details here:

                               

                              https://luminous-landscape.com/articleImages/CameraScanning.pdf

                               

                              Here's a full-size image of a 35mm Fuji Super G100 color negative (circa 1999) captured with a Canon 5D MKII and processed with PS and LR as detailed in the above article.

                               

                              Dropbox - IMG_6426_Fuji Super G100_PS Workflow Example-DSLR Film Copier.jpg

                              • 12. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                ThomasKaaeColding Level 1

                                I haven't had issues with color negatives (kodak portra 160) "scanned" with a DSLR... by using the flip curve mode... OTHER than all the sliders are reversed... I can still tweak the negatives to get a nice result. Its just that its reversed tools that are my issue.

                                 

                                Cheers

                                • 13. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                  markalanthomas Level 1

                                  You’re funny a dick.

                                  • 14. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    ThomasKaaeColding wrote:

                                     

                                    I can still tweak the negatives to get a nice result. Its just that its reversed tools that are my issue.

                                    That's the issue with processing color negatives using just LR. It lacks the tools available in PS to "automate" orange mask removal and correction of the individual RGB channel gamma. It would be helpful to have a simple 'Invert' button for processing B&W images so the Tone controls don't work backwards. But as

                                    I created a PS Action for processing color negative raw files captured with a DSLR (or other) camera. It uses adjustment layers for Inversion, Mask Removal, Color Balance, and Contrast correction. It is film type "independent" and most color negative images require very little "tweaking." The TIFF file can then be stacked with the original raw file for further editing and cataloging functions inside LR. The PS Action can be downloaded at the link I provided (at end of article). I suggest also downloading the PDF with full instructions on using the PS Action (Pages 16-30).

                                     

                                    Feel free to send me a PM with any questions.

                                    • 15. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                      JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      ThomasKaaeColding wrote:

                                       

                                      @ Bob Nope ... I dont scan... I photograph my negatives with my DSLR.

                                      Actually, there is a way to do this with a single "tick". Invert the tone curve as has been explained. Then, create a preset that just includes the tone curve. From that point on, all you will have to do is tick that preset. If you photograph and import a number of these images at once, you could even apply that preset during import and it would all be taken care of.

                                      • 16. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Yeah, but the OP also wants the toning sliders to be inverted while the tone-curve is inverted so moving the exposure brighter makes the image brighter.  If just the tone curve is inverted, then moving the exposure slider up, darkens the on screen image. 

                                         

                                        I think the inversion of the toning sliders is never going to happen, and as you say the creating of an inverted tone-curve preset is easy enough to do.

                                        • 17. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                          johnrellis Most Valuable Participant
                                          the OP also wants the toning sliders to be inverted while the tone-curve is inverted so moving the exposure brighter makes the image brighter.

                                          People scanning black-and-white with DSLRs can speed their workflow by using a develop preset to invert the tone curve and an export preset that exports the pic back into the LR catalog as a 16-bit TIFF stacked on top of the original: Lightroom: Ability to invert B&W negative scans to positives. The sliders will work as expected on the TIFF positive. Not as convenient as an option in Develop, but it only takes a few clicks to process a batch of photos.

                                          • 18. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            In this case the OP is dealing with raw files of photographed negatives not scans so they'd rather work with the raw photos than have to export as TIF and reimport just to have the sliders work normally.  When the scans are TIFs to start with then the method you describe is fine.

                                            • 19. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                              johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                              The workflow downsides of export/reimport are modest: a little extra time (amortized when working on a batch), a little extra disk space while you're working on the photo.  With respect to scans of B&W negatives, is there a practical impact on how LR Develop responds with 16-bit TIFFs compared to raw?  Impacts on image quality?

                                              • 20. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                johnrellis wrote:

                                                 

                                                The workflow downsides of export/reimport are modest: a little extra time (amortized when working on a batch), a little extra disk space while you're working on the photo.

                                                If you change the TIFF in PS to Grayscale mode the file size will be 1/3 and closer to the raw file. Unfortunately there's no way to do this from inside LR.

                                                 

                                                johnrellis wrote:

                                                 

                                                With respect to scans of B&W negatives, is there a practical impact on how LR Develop responds with 16-bit TIFFs compared to raw?  Impacts on image quality?

                                                B&W (and Color) negatives have a pretty low dynamic range compared to normal camera images. As long as the image is properly exposed and shot at a low-noise ISO (100) then exporting with LR's default settings works well. Adjusting the Exposure slider in LR to eliminate highlight or shadow clipping by centering the histogram is helpful.

                                                • 21. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                  johnrellis Most Valuable Participant
                                                  As long as the image is properly exposed and shot at a low-noise ISO (100) then exporting with LR's default settings works well.

                                                  What would happen to a DSLR scan of a B&W ISO 400 negative improperly exposed, exported as a 16-bit TIFF?  Would there be any practical loss of quality in the TIFF as compared to the raw?

                                                  • 22. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    If the raw image shows highlight or shadow clipping in the Histogram those pixels will be unrecoverable in the TIFF file. LR's PV2012 image adaptive controls aren't the best choice for processing camera raw film images, but as long as there is no clipping in the Histogram highlights or shadows indicators then the TIFF file will contain the full dynamic range of the raw image data. LR's image adaptive controls make it impossible to determine the actual raw data values so I use RawDigger to determine my flash manual exposure setting. Highlight clipping in the raw data should be avoided so you're better off slightly under-exposing if unsure of the proper exposure. I also manually set my flash White Balance in LR using the White Balance Selector tool on a test shot with no film.

                                                     

                                                    Much more detailed information here: https://luminous-landscape.com/articleImages/CameraScanning.pdf

                                                     

                                                    The below camera raw color negative film image is about 1.0 EV underexposed and shows blue channel clipping shadow clipping. Raising the Exposure by +1.0 EV removes the clipping and centers the histogram data. From my experience this provides a very usable TIFF Export and B&W images should be adjusted the same way.

                                                     

                                                    Negative Processing - Exposure Adjustment.jpg

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                                                    • 23. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                      johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                                      To cycle back to the motivating question, then: Would image quality or the ability to make adjustments in Develop be seriously affected by a workflow for DSLR B&W negative scans that applied a tone-curve inverting preset followed by exporting and reimporting as a 16-bit ProPhoto TIFF?

                                                      • 24. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        That's a good question. Here's the same color negative with LR Exposure +1.0 EV applied in LR and then inverted in PS as a TIFF, and the raw file inverted in LR. The differences are caused by LR's PV2012 image adaptive controls, which process the midtones, shadows, and highlights non-linearly.

                                                         

                                                        It's probably not a deal-breaker, but certainly less than ideal since the Tone controls are being applied bass-ackwards. So yes, there probably is a loss in quality when using the Tone Curve Invert function with a negative film image.

                                                         

                                                        What is needed to make this work properly is a LR function (i.e. button) that inverts the demosaiced linear image data before the camera profile, WB, and Toning is applied.

                                                         

                                                        Negative Processing - Invert in PS verus Invert in LR.jpg

                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                        • 25. Re: How to invert pictures in Lightroom ?
                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Peter Krogh just published a new eBook titled 'Digitizing Your Photos With Your Camera and Lightroom.' He covers both B&W and Color negatives, and print scans. He has also created Develop presets for both B&W and Color Negatives. The LR controls still work backwards, but videos are provided with detailed LR workflow instructions. Results using his color negative workflow (DYP) are impressive and very close to the results using my LR/PS Color Negative Action.

                                                           

                                                          https://www.damuseful.com/collections/all-products/products/digitizing-your-photographs-pd f