1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Mar 31, 2015 12:19 AM by Willi Adelberger

    Glitches in line justification

    kiravae

      I'm having a problem with a few glitches where line justification isn't working properly. I'm using Indesign CS3 to lay out a long book, paragraphs are justified with custom hyphenation, word spacing and letter spacing, and using "Adobe Paragraph Editor". There are a few places where Indesign puts only a few words, widely spaced,  on the last line. There are no breaks there, no weird formatting on the text boxes, and no junk code in the text, as far as I can tell, that could be causing this. I can work around the problem by manually applying different tracking and kerning or by adding nonbreaking spaces between a bunch of words, but it ends up looking sort of weird. Any idea what could be causing this?

        • 1. Re: Glitches in line justification
          vladan saveljic Level 4

          can we see screen shot with one of these paragraph?

          can we see the hyphenation settings?


          for example:


          Schermata 2015-03-24 alle 10.19.18.png

          • 2. Re: Glitches in line justification
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            This sounds to me like the paragraph is set to full justify all lines rather than leaving the last line aligned left. In the Alignment dialog you would want to choose Left Justify.

            • 3. Re: Glitches in line justification
              kiravae Level 1

              I didn't word my question correctly - the weird spacing is happening on the last line of a page, rather than the last line of a paragraph - the paragraph continues onto the next page. I'll post a screenshot.

              • 4. Re: Glitches in line justification
                kiravae Level 1

                Here is an image of the problem, notice that the last line of page 277 has room to pull up a few more words but refuses to (hidden characters are revealed - there aren't any hidden breaks or anything causing the problem). I can get around the spacing problem by changing the kerning from metrics to optical, but it then looks a little different from the surrounding text. The problem recurs a few pages later and strangely, changing the kerning doesn't it solve it there, so I'm back to trying to figure out what is causing it.

                 

                 

                screenshot1.png

                 

                 

                Here are my settings:

                 

                screenshot2.png

                 

                screenshot3.png

                • 5. Re: Glitches in line justification
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  I would try changing the last space on page 277 (after the word written) to a non-breaking space and see what that does. Judging by the highlights, ID is having difficulty composing the paragraphs using the settings you specified, and I suspect the columns may be a little bit narrow for the size of the type.

                  • 6. Re: Glitches in line justification
                    vladan saveljic Level 4

                    I would change, "hyphenate across column". Now the last line on each page are not hyphenated for this reason.

                    I would change also "hyphen limit". Now is 1 and it means that not allows hyphenation of two consecutive lines

                    • 7. Re: Glitches in line justification
                      vladan saveljic Level 4

                      however, it seems to me to see on your screenshot a hidden character before the word "for" at the begenning of page 288.

                      Can you delate it?

                      • 8. Re: Glitches in line justification
                        kiravae Level 1

                        The hidden character at the next page is a "#", it appears at the beginning of every left-hand page of a spread, I'm not sure why Indesign puts it there (it appears automatically), but it doesn't take up any space or normally cause a problem.

                         

                        Letting the paragraph hyphenate across columns actually fixes the problem, though I'm not a big fan of splitting words between pages, I just don't like how it looks. (Obviously, at a certain point I'll have to choose whatever works because it certainly looks better hyphenated across the column than left how it is now.)

                         

                        Putting nonbreaking spaces between the last few words actually pulls them onto the next page, even though they should fit easily where they were, which makes me still think there is something pretty strange going on here:

                         

                        screenshot4.png

                        • 9. Re: Glitches in line justification
                          kiravae Level 1

                          I've figured out what seems to be the problem - Indesign Paragraph Composer isn't working on the pages where I have this problem. I know this because switching between the Paragraph and Line Composers leads to no difference at all - the layout is exactly the same. (If I try this on a normal paragraph, it looks decidedly better with the Paragraph Composer. So it is working on most of the document). Now I just need to figure out what is blocking it from working on certain paragraphs.

                          • 10. Re: Glitches in line justification
                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                            Your problem is, that you have used a lot of non breaking spaces. You can see it in the first line of your page 278. Change the fixed spaces with normal spaces and the text will reflow as you want it. I would recommend to search for non breaking spaces and replace it with spaces in the whole document, keep only those where you need them.

                            The # character comes from your master. You did set up your document with primary text frame, but only on the left master it is found. When you placed the text, you did something wrong, maybei holding shift key or something (which is useful without primary text frames), that added another text frame above your primary text frame.

                            Either connect your text frames on the master together as primary text frames or work without any text frame on the master, if you don't know how to work with primary text frames.

                            • 11. Re: Glitches in line justification
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              I suggested using ONE non-breaking space, designed to keep only those two words together to see if it would suck up the next word (which apparently it didn't).

                               

                              Narrow columns, and at about 50 characters per line yours are verging on being narrow, generally require more hyphenation to get good spacing, simply because there is less space in the line to distribute the adjustments.

                              • 12. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                In the second screen shot I see non breaking spaces with the specific non printing character ^.

                                • 13. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Definitely. And that is the cause for the bad spacing on the previous line at that point, but that's not what was suggested earlier, so I have no way of knowing what one n/b space would have done.

                                   

                                  Ultimately I think it comes down to the restrictive hyphenation settings and the column width.

                                  • 14. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    The hidden character at the next page is a "#", it appears at the beginning of every left-hand page of a spread, I'm not sure why Indesign puts it there (it appears automatically), but it doesn't take up any space or normally cause a problem.

                                     

                                    It's an end of story marker, so you must have empty text boxes on the page behind the textflow. Maybe coming from the master page? Probably not the problem but you might want to delete them.

                                     

                                    Also, check if there are any No Breaks applied to the text—they wouldn't show as an invisible. Select all of the text and check the Character Panel's flyout. This indicates there are no breaks applied somewhere in the selected text:

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2015-03-26 at 9.07.49 AM.png

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2015-03-26 at 9.20.46 AM.png

                                    • 15. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                      kiravae Level 1

                                      The nonbreaking spaces were added just to show the nature of the problem, they aren't causing the problem - it already existed. While my hyphenation settings might not be ideal for even text flow, I don't believe they're causing this specific problem on the last line of a page - it only occurs 3 times in a 400 page book. What is different about the paragraphs with the problem is that the Paragraph Composer doesn't seem to be functioning, instead rolling back to Line Composer even though I have "Paragraph Composer" selected. (I noticed this because changing between Line and Paragraph composers doesn't change the layout on these paragraphs, whereas it will look different with a "normal" paragraph.) An internet search suggests that an inline object in a paragraph might cause Indesign to roll back to Line Composer without telling you, but I can't find any inline objects hiding in there.

                                      • 16. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                        kiravae Level 1

                                        You're right, I do seem to have a text box sitting on top of a master text frame. An example of me being self-taught with Indesign and thinking I did it right because it seems to look right, until something goes wonky.

                                         

                                        screenshot5.png

                                        • 17. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Did you try the select all text and look at the Character panel No Break? Again you can't see no breaks via invisibles—they are different than no break spaces.

                                          • 18. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                            kiravae Level 1

                                            I checked, there aren't any "No Breaks". The problem is being caused by the Paragraph Composer not functioning, unless that is just another symptom.

                                             

                                            I also noticed that Indesign CS3 is giving me the pink/purple "Master Text Frame" on new documents regardless of whether I have that option checked (on older documents, I would just get the dotted line showing where the margins are, which is how I want it). I actually considered that perhaps my program is corrupted, so I de-installed and did a clean re-install, but the same problems are present. I'm getting kind of frustrated because now I have two problems and still don't know what is causing them.

                                            • 19. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              can you share the file?

                                              • 20. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                And what you are describing in CS3 is just the margin guides...

                                                • 21. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  also did you delete your prefs when you reinstalled? Uninstalling and reinstalling wouldn't necessarily clear the prefs.

                                                  • 22. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                    kiravae Level 1

                                                    Oops, you're correct. The purple should be there. But I was getting Master boxes that I could select by Ctrl+Shift+click, regardless of whether I wanted them.

                                                    • 23. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                      kiravae Level 1

                                                      Thank you for the tip - I let it delete the Prefs and then rebuild them and the Master text box problem went away, now it doesn't put Master text boxes unless I ask.

                                                       

                                                      The document is long so here's just a problematic paragraph (it's a doozy - Balzac is on a tear):

                                                       

                                                      Shared Files - Acrobat.com

                                                       

                                                      I know I could easily fix the problematic line (bottom of 2nd page) by changing the hyphenation, but because this happens multiple times I really want to understand why the Paragraph Composer isn't working.

                                                      • 24. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                        I can certainly see a change when I switch between the paragraph and single line composers, though it's happening after the area you are concerned about. I also added that non-breaking space I suggested earlier, and it did indeed suck several words back up into that last line, and switching composers became more obvious as a line or two in the same page would change.

                                                         

                                                        I also tied changing the justification settings to allow a minimum of 90% word spacing. It didn't eliminate the problem completely, but I think it improved the look.

                                                         

                                                        Bottom line, though, I stand behind my assertion that your columns are too narrow for your hyphenation settings. Also, it's pretty much inevitable that you'll have some lines in justified text that need manual attention.

                                                        • 25. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          I don't have your version of Palatino, but the bad breaks are showing. There is something odd about the text, so I tried saving an IDML out of CC2014 and opening that and the problems went away. So you could try exporting an Interchange .inx out of CS3 and opening that and see if the corruption goes away.

                                                          • 26. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            Peter try saving an IDML and see if you get a change. Can't be sure because of the missing fonts but it fixes it here:

                                                             

                                                            Screen Shot 2015-03-27 at 7.39.46 PM.png

                                                             

                                                            Screen Shot 2015-03-27 at 7.39.34 PM.png

                                                            • 27. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                              I just tried .inx as you suggested, and it made no difference in the composition at all. IDML makes some minor reflows, but does not "Fix" anything -- still have bad lines sprinkled thoughout.

                                                              • 28. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                The other weird thing I'm seeing is if I change the height of the text frame with the bad break by a hundredth of an inch it fixes the break:

                                                                 

                                                                Screen Shot 2015-03-27 at 8.50.03 PM.png

                                                                Screen Shot 2015-03-27 at 8.50.19 PM.png

                                                                • 29. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                  kiravae Level 1

                                                                  No matter what I do to the text, I don't see a difference on this paragraph when I toggle between composers. I almost wish I had another computer to try it on.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                    kiravae Level 1

                                                                    Saving and then opening an .inx didn't make any difference.

                                                                     

                                                                    Separating the paragraph into multiple paragraphs (alas, not something I have the option of doing, as I didn't write it) causes the Paragraph Composer to apparently start working again (the text will reflow when I toggle between composers). Is it possible this paragraph is just too damn long for the Paragraph Composer to handle?

                                                                    • 31. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                      No, that should never be a problem, as longer paragraphs have even a better spacing than shorter ones.

                                                                      What happens if you delete the used paragraph style and build it up from the scratch? Maybe some hidden setting is causing it. Sometimes things like these happen when text was imported from another application like Word and the imported style is used and only adapted. A reason why I never use any imported style.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        To Willi's point, there are imported Paragraph Styles (styles with the disk icon) in your sample—Normal and Body Text Indent 2. The style used by your big paragraph is an ID style but it's based on Body Text Indent 2, which is based on (MS Word's?) Normal, so  the problem may have been imported from Word.

                                                                         

                                                                        Try basing your Noumena Body Text on [No Paragraph Style] and get rid of the Word styles—that fixes the breaks for me. Also you might try removing the style override (+) on the paragraph.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                          kiravae Level 1

                                                                          The text was originally in LibreOffice but saved as a .doc, so my first thought was that there was some sort of corruption. I tried several times to remove any formatting before I posted the question - I tried pasting the problematic paragraphs in a notepad and then reinserting them, and I tried to paste them back in LibreOffice and then paste them back in Indesign as "unformatted text". Neither removed the problem. For some reason changing the basis of my text style to "No Paragraph Style" didn't work for me either.

                                                                           

                                                                          The only thing I got to work was chopping the paragraph into sections. I don't understand what the reason is, but I went ahead and put a few paragraph breaks in the long paragraph, changed the appropriate sections to "full justify" so it wouldn't show, and now "Paragraph Composer" functions in those areas and it looks good.

                                                                           

                                                                          I've been chewing on this problem past the point where the person I'm trying to help suggested to stick a bandaid on it and move on, so I'm glad to find a solution that looks right. I want to thank everyone for being so patient trying to help me with this.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            Removing all local overrides will resolve your problem. Why are you not doing that? Manual overrides to text styles have to be avoided anyway, if you would have avoided them, you would have got a clean problem.

                                                                             

                                                                            I don't understant, when people are importing styles from text processing or are working with manual overrides. I think here it was a combination of both. As the maual override was caused by an imported property which cannot be reflected in any InDesign style property.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                              Another problem I see with your m-dash. You did not use a normal m-dash but something similar. If you change this odd dash to the normal m-dash you will get a much better text reflow.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                                kiravae Level 1

                                                                                The only override is for the paragraph leading - removing it doesn't change the problem.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                                  kiravae Level 1

                                                                                  You have a really careful eye - you're right, it isn't an m-dash, it's a horizontal bar. The person I'm working with replaced the m-dashes with horizontal bars because he preferred how they looked in this font. Indesign doesn't like them in that if one hits the end of a line, it will change its appearance to look like a hyphen. I will do a character search later to fix this. However, it isn't causing the spacing problem - there are horizontal bars in the whole book but only a few long paragraphs where the Paragraph composer isn't working.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                                    Michael Witherell Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                    I opened your file to experiment. As soon as I changed ANYTHING in the paragraph style, the problem went away. My suggestions: Edit your paragraph style:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Style Based on No Paragraph Style to be independent

                                                                                    Kerning Method set to Optical

                                                                                    Hyphenation: 9, 3, 4, 1, 1p6, and the 3 switches off

                                                                                    Justification:

                                                                                    Word Spacing: 80, 100, 120

                                                                                    Letter Spacing: -5%, 0%, 5%

                                                                                    Glyph Scaling: 95, 100, 105

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I also notice you are not using an italic character style to make the occasional italics. You should not be using any directly-applied local formatting. Use proper character styles instead.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Glitches in line justification
                                                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                      Make NO overrides and edit your paragraph style. Overrides are never good. No formatting should be done without a style.

                                                                                      It looks like if you have imported and infected with some styling illness from another application. Heal it with editing the paragraph style.

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