21 Replies Latest reply on Mar 28, 2015 9:32 AM by trshaner

    Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?

    duglst Level 1

      I'm trying to decide if I can get a way with a monitor that is 99% sRGB or do I really need one that is AdobeRGB. I shoot, edit and print using ProRGB. I have been using a Dell U3011. If I get a new sRGB monitor will my prints look worse? Will the photos on the monitor look much worse?  I'm not concerned about color accuracy as much as out of gamut problems. I mostly print landscape and action shots, no portraits.

       

      A Dell U2515H is pulling at my heartstrings because it is fast enough for gaming and better for internet browsing but it is only sRGB. It's resolution is 2650 x 1440 which would be better for browsing and gaming. My other favorite option is the Dell UP2414Q. It's resolution is 4K and has a good AdobeRGB gamut. According to reviews it is temperamental and has quality issues. The 4K would be great for editing and but a curse for browsing and it is a little slow for gaming. So, if the sRGB monitor is good enough for an amateur that would be good news for me.

       

      Thanks for any input!

      Doug

        • 1. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I have read your message a couple of times during the day, and have hesitated answering because I'm not real computer savvy. Especially when it comes to discussing monitors and different color spaces. I'm only going to mention that my monitor is sRGB, and I get along wonderfully using Lightroom. I have no problems printing raw images directly from Lightroom, even though Lightroom uses the ProPhoto color space. When users come here and indicate they are having trouble with colors, those who are in the know usually recommend that they switch from using the monitor profile they are using to an sRGB monitor profile. And in many instances that switch results the problem. As I indicated, I cannot give you any technical information about making your monitor choice. But I think you will find that having a sRGB monitor is not going to cause any problems using Lightroom.

          • 2. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            You need to get your priorities straight. Are you really concerned about a good screen to print match? In that case - given your budget - I'd forget all about 4K and spend the money where it actually buys you something.

             

            A wide gamut monitor is useful in that regard, no denying that. Since it covers most print profiles completely (inkjet or offset), soft proofing is reliable and effective. A standard gamut monitor, OTOH, soft proofs everything you see on screen to sRGB-ish to begin with. So for this reason soft proofing is mostly a waste of time, and soft proofing to Adobe RGB (as per your title) is completely meaningless in any case.

             

            But much more important than gamut is to have good control of your calibration parameters. You need a white point that matches the paper (color and luminance), and a black point that matches the paper's contrast range. A glossy inkjet photo paper will normally be in the 250:1 - 300:1 range, while most monitors natively are around 1000:1. This means you're in for an unpleasant surprise when you see the printed result. The calibration target is the key to a good screen to print match; not monitor gamut (or to a much lesser degree).

             

            The Dells won't give you this kind of calibration control. For that you need Eizo ColorNavigator or NEC Spectraview.

             

            Eizo has a reputation for being expensive (unfounded) and in fact they have what is currently the best deal on the market, the ColorEdge CS240. At $826, this is big bang for the buck:

             

            http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N=11083422&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi

             

            If this is too expensive (it shouldn't be; given what you get), an alternative is the standard gamut CS230. You'll always be better off with a good standard gamut monitor than a mediocre wide gamut one.

            • 3. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
              duglst Level 1

              JimHess wrote:

               

              I have read your message a couple of times during the day, and have hesitated answering because I'm not real computer savvy. Especially when it comes to discussing monitors and different color spaces. I'm only going to mention that my monitor is sRGB, and I get along wonderfully using Lightroom. I have no problems printing raw images directly from Lightroom, even though Lightroom uses the ProPhoto color space. When users come here and indicate they are having trouble with colors, those who are in the know usually recommend that they switch from using the monitor profile they are using to an sRGB monitor profile. And in many instances that switch results the problem. As I indicated, I cannot give you any technical information about making your monitor choice. But I think you will find that having a sRGB monitor is not going to cause any problems using Lightroom.

              Thanks, Jim, for your input. I might be at your same level because I am usually happy with my prints, at least eventually. Usually brightness is a bigger challenge for me than color.

              • 4. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                duglst Level 1

                D Fosse wrote:

                 

                You need to get your priorities straight. Are you really concerned about a good screen to print match? In that case - given your budget - I'd forget all about 4K and spend the money where it actually buys you something.

                 

                A wide gamut monitor is useful in that regard, no denying that. Since it covers most print profiles completely (inkjet or offset), soft proofing is reliable and effective. A standard gamut monitor, OTOH, soft proofs everything you see on screen to sRGB-ish to begin with. So for this reason soft proofing is mostly a waste of time, and soft proofing to Adobe RGB (as per your title) is completely meaningless in any case.

                 

                But much more important than gamut is to have good control of your calibration parameters. You need a white point that matches the paper (color and luminance), and a black point that matches the paper's contrast range. A glossy inkjet photo paper will normally be in the 250:1 - 300:1 range, while most monitors natively are around 1000:1. This means you're in for an unpleasant surprise when you see the printed result. The calibration target is the key to a good screen to print match; not monitor gamut (or to a much lesser degree).

                 

                The Dells won't give you this kind of calibration control. For that you need Eizo ColorNavigator or NEC Spectraview.

                 

                Eizo has a reputation for being expensive (unfounded) and in fact they have what is currently the best deal on the market, the ColorEdge CS240. At $826, this is big bang for the buck:

                 

                http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N=11083422&InitialSearch=yes&sts=pi

                 

                If this is too expensive (it shouldn't be; given what you get), an alternative is the standard gamut CS230. You'll always be better off with a good standard gamut monitor than a mediocre wide gamut one.

                I think I do have my priorities straight. I want a monitor that is ok for editing photos and is also ok for playing video games. Is that ok?     Since my Dell U3011 has been good enough for me but clearly isn't good enough for you, we seem to have different goals. I don't aspire to sell or even give away any of my photographs unless someone really wants one but I do print and display some of my pics. I'm new to printing  pics and maybe I am too easily pleased. My eyes have improved but frequently photographers in forums complain about things that I can't even see.

                 

                On the other hand, that Eizo seems like a great monitor and a good value! I read the specs of it and a couple of reviews of it and I am very impressed.  I suspect it would be overkill for my modest goals but I don't understand it well enough to really understand what I am missing. Along those lines, I have some questions about things you said.

                 

                * "...soft proofing to Adobe RGB (as per your title) is completely meaningless in any case."

                I should have said ProPHoto because I soft proof in LR.  Is it also meaningless? It seems to show me where my colors will be out of gamut on my monitor or printed based on my paper profile.

                 

                *You need a white point that matches the paper (color and luminance), and a black point that matches the paper's contrast range. A glossy inkjet photo paper will normally be in the 250:1 - 300:1 range, while most monitors natively are around 1000:1. This means you're in for an unpleasant surprise when you see the printed result. The calibration target is the key to a good screen to print match; not monitor gamut (or to a much lesser degree)."

                I use the color profile for the Canon paper I print on using my Canon printer. Doesn't that solve that problem? How is the monitor involved with the papers contrast range or white point? I haven't noticed a problem with white point as much as brightness but I've been getting better at that.

                 

                Thanks for your input. I am considering the Eizo and I have more research to do. I wish I could rent one and try it for a week along with the cheap compromise gaming/editing monitor I am considering.

                 

                Doug

                • 5. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                  Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  You can't go wrong with Eizo or NEC spectra view. That said, I am very happy with this thing: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/proart-pq279q-wide-gamut-review,3638.html . As always, your monitor is only as good as your calibration, so make sure you have a good calibrator whatever you do.

                  • 6. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Is that ok?

                    Absolutely. Sorry if I came across as, well, something I didn't intend to. I do this for a living, so I need to know with absolute confidence that what I see on screen is in fact what comes off the presses two days later. So for me, an Eizo is sort of a minimal requirement.

                     

                    But let's just look at this from a general perspective. The monitor is, in this context, just a proofing device. You want to see a preview of the final print - IOW the preview should match the printed output as closely as possible. So that's why you need to match the white and black points to the paper, and this is done by tuning the calibration parameters. This isn't color management; it's setting the environment for color management, so to speak. It's defining the framework for the color profiles. The correct calibration target is the one that produces a match to printed output.

                     

                    Soft proofing is only as useful as the monitor's gamut. Think about it - if you have a wide gamut monitor that covers Adobe RGB, what use is there in soft proofing to Adobe RGB? It's already soft proofed to Adobe RGB, because that's all the monitor can reproduce anyway. That's what you already see on screen.

                     

                    So you can imagine that soft proofing on a standard gamut monitor, that only covers sRGB, is mostly useless. SRGB is about the smallest profile there is; most print profiles extend well beyond. But you won't see that.

                    • 7. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      duglst wrote:

                       

                      I'm trying to decide if I can get a way with a monitor that is 99% sRGB or do I really need one that is AdobeRGB. I shoot, edit and print using ProRGB. I have been using a Dell U3011. If I get a new sRGB monitor will my prints look worse?

                      Having read your initial post and replies I'm confused what you're actual objective is in replacing your current Dell U3011.  You say:

                      duglst wrote:

                      A Dell U2515H is pulling at my heartstrings because it is fast enough for gaming and better for internet browsing but it is only sRGB. It's resolution is 2650 x 1440 which would be better for browsing and gaming. My other favorite option is the Dell UP2414Q. It's resolution is 4K and has a good AdobeRGB gamut. According to reviews it is temperamental and has quality issues. The 4K would be great for editing and but a curse for browsing and it is a little slow for gaming.

                      Twice you mention "gaming" as important and appears to be the primary reason you're looking for a new monitor. The best monitor type for gaming is TN, which is also the worst choice for photo editing. Do you have room to use two monitors? If so I suggest buying a good standard gamut TN monitor for your gaming applications and setup your system for dual-display. It will also be useful for Web browsing (sRGB).

                       

                      More importantly are you calibrating your current photo editing monitor? Are you using a hardware calibration device such as a Spyder, i1 Display puck? What settings are you using (Luminace, Gamma, White Point)?

                      • 8. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        So you can imagine that soft proofing on a standard gamut monitor, that only covers sRGB, is mostly useless. SRGB is about the smallest profile there is; most print profiles extend well beyond. But you won't see that.

                        And sRGB is much wider than every printer out there too for certain colors too. Deep blues, reds and green are generally not well reproduced on any printer even when they are inside sRGB. A simple comparison between sRGB and a typical printer profile will show that even the very best printers and best papers cannot reproduce sRGB but are indeed wider than sRGB but in other places (typically the darker cyans). This is simply due to the different color model of reflective media such as ink on paper instead of the RGb model in displays. Soft proofing on a sRGB gamut monitor is certainly very useful and has been the standard for many years until adobeRGB monitors became available widely. Consider that most images do not really go out of sRGB (it's the web and TV standard for a reason). Any image on the web is in sRGB and certainly soft proofing those is useful if you want to print them.  Also soft proofing is not only about out-of-gamut colors (although that is a large part of it) but about changes in contrast and color shifts that occur when converting to a printer profile. It's also about simulating the effect of paper color and lowering of contrast owing to the paper appearance which a good soft proofing system such as the ones in Photoshop or Lightroom definitely do take care of for you.

                         

                        Soft proofing to a printer profile on a adobeRGB monitor is certainly better than a sRGB monitor. It's not orders of magnitude better though but only a bit better and only for images that actually have color far outside of sRGB. My images often have a lot of color outside of sRGB which is why I use an adobeRGB monitor but I do not think this is generally true for the majority of photographers. Most nowadays target the web and not print and in that case, you are probably better off with a good sRGB monitor.

                        • 9. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                          duglst Level 1

                          D Fosse wrote:

                           

                          Is that ok?

                          Absolutely. Sorry if I came across as, well, something I didn't intend to. I do this for a living, so I need to know with absolute confidence that what I see on screen is in fact what comes off the presses two days later. So for me, an Eizo is sort of a minimal requirement.

                           

                          But let's just look at this from a general perspective. The monitor is, in this context, just a proofing device. You want to see a preview of the final print - IOW the preview should match the printed output as closely as possible. So that's why you need to match the white and black points to the paper, and this is done by tuning the calibration parameters. This isn't color management; it's setting the environment for color management, so to speak. It's defining the framework for the color profiles. The correct calibration target is the one that produces a match to printed output.

                           

                          Soft proofing is only as useful as the monitor's gamut. Think about it - if you have a wide gamut monitor that covers Adobe RGB, what use is there in soft proofing to Adobe RGB? It's already soft proofed to Adobe RGB, because that's all the monitor can reproduce anyway. That's what you already see on screen.

                           

                          So you can imagine that soft proofing on a standard gamut monitor, that only covers sRGB, is mostly useless. SRGB is about the smallest profile there is; most print profiles extend well beyond. But you won't see that.

                          Thanks for getting back to me. Maybe this is beyond my ability to understand. I still have questions but I think they are the same question. Please feel free to give up at any time.

                           

                          This is how I have been managing (mismanaging) my printing process and it is based on these assumptions:

                          1. When my SpyderPro 3 calibrates my monitor, it measures the contrast of the monitor and sets the brightness in the middle with some allowance for ambient light.

                          2. When I "Destination softproof" using LR, it shows which areas are out of gamut based on my printer and the profile of the paper I use. I adjust the out of gamut areas until LR indicates they ok.

                          3. If colors are out of gamut on my monitor but not out of gamut for my inks and paper, the print will look more colorful than they did on my monitor but as long as I set the white point accurately and don't abuse the saturation and vibrance sliders, the print should look ok.

                          4. Because LR and the printer know the paper profile they make the best of the papers contrast limitations.

                          5. In Destination Softproof, LR grays out areas that are out of gamut for my ink and paper. I think this would be the same on an sRGB monitor.

                           

                          Please feel free to point out any insanity in any of these assumptions.

                           

                          Thanks,

                          Doug

                          • 10. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Jao vdL wrote:

                             

                            Well, yes, you're right, I was simplifying. Let's just say gamuts are different because the primaries are rotated 60 degrees.

                             

                            The point I was trying to make is that people soft proof on small gamut monitors and expect what they see to be a reliable preview. It isn't, because they're not taking monitor gamut into consideration. A wide gamut monitor is much better suited for this.

                             

                            For offset print it matters where you are. The US standard web coated SWOP is very much smaller than the European standard ISO Coated eci, and large parts of the deep blues you mention will be clipped in web coated but not ISO coated. Of course Lightroom doesn't do CMYK, just mentioning it for context.

                             

                            All of which really amplifies my original main point: Gamut isn't nearly as important as getting the calibration parameters right. That's what really makes a difference. Out of gamut will always be something you have to consider and deal with one way or another. That said, a standard profile conversion will usually handle clipping well, and it's not always necessary to do anything special about it.

                            • 11. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              duglst wrote:

                               

                              This is how I have been managing (mismanaging) my printing process and it is based on these assumptions:

                              1. When my SpyderPro 3 calibrates my monitor, it measures the contrast of the monitor and sets the brightness in the middle with some allowance for ambient light.

                              I'm not familiar with the Spyder 3 Pro software settings, but it sounds like there's no provision to set a calibrated Luminance level (i.e. 100 to 120 cd/M2). You need to be able to set a Luminance level that best matches your print viewing conditions. Lacking that your prints will typically be darker than what you are seeing on screen.

                               

                              The problem with LR's (and PS's) Out of Gamut indicator is that there's no indication concerning the "amount" it is out of gamut. If an area is just a tiny bit out of gamut it turns bright Red. If an area is waaaay out of gamut is also turns the same bright Red.

                               

                              To see a typical color printer gamut vs sRGB and Adobe RGB you can use the Interactive Gamut viewer at Dry Creek: Interactive Color Space Gamut Models

                               

                              You may need to install a VRML plugin using the link provided. Here's the Epson 4000 Glossy Paper gamut. On the website you can rotate the 3D model to see all areas. The Epson printer exceeds both sRGB and Adobe RGB gamuts in the Yellow spectrum:

                               

                              Gray Wire = sRGB, Red Wire = Adobe RGB, Solid = Epson 4000 Glossy PhotoPaper

                              Printer Gamut.jpg

                              • 12. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                duglst Level 1

                                trshaner wrote:

                                 

                                duglst wrote:

                                 

                                I'm trying to decide if I can get a way with a monitor that is 99% sRGB or do I really need one that is AdobeRGB. I shoot, edit and print using ProRGB. I have been using a Dell U3011. If I get a new sRGB monitor will my prints look worse?

                                Having read your initial post and replies I'm confused what you're actual objective is in replacing your current Dell U3011.  You say:

                                duglst wrote:

                                A Dell U2515H is pulling at my heartstrings because it is fast enough for gaming and better for internet browsing but it is only sRGB. It's resolution is 2650 x 1440 which would be better for browsing and gaming. My other favorite option is the Dell UP2414Q. It's resolution is 4K and has a good AdobeRGB gamut. According to reviews it is temperamental and has quality issues. The 4K would be great for editing and but a curse for browsing and it is a little slow for gaming.

                                Twice you mention "gaming" as important and appears to be the primary reason you're looking for a new monitor. The best monitor type for gaming is TN, which is also the worst choice for photo editing. Do you have room to use two monitors? If so I suggest buying a good standard gamut TN monitor for your gaming applications and setup your system for dual-display. It will also be useful for Web browsing (sRGB).

                                 

                                More importantly are you calibrating your current photo editing monitor? Are you using a hardware calibration device such as a Spyder, i1 Display puck? What settings are you using (Luminace, Gamma, White Point)?

                                 

                                Thanks, trshaner.

                                 

                                Good questions and suggestions. I have two houses and want to have a monitor in both of them. I'll keep my older Dell AdobeRGB monitor in one and I'm trying to decide what monitor to get for the other. It doesn't have two monitors. Since I'm not a hard core gamer or a hard core printer I'm hoping I can find a good enough "tweener" monitor. My new monitor will pivot so if I ever consolidate to one house, I'd like the monitor that pivots to be ok for editing. Maybe I'll have to give up my quest for a tweener but the Dell U2515H seems like a good candidate because they people that have them love them according to the solid 5 star rating at Amazon and it got a great comprehensive performance review here: Dell U2515H Review - TFT Central

                                 

                                I do always calibrate with a Spyder Pro 3 and final check edits before printing. When I calibrate I have the Spyder calibrate everything. I don't know what that includes.

                                • 13. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                  duglst Level 1

                                  My Spyder does correct luminosity but it is hard for me to control the ambient light. Sometimes I have to print twice but I've improved substantially.

                                   

                                  I understand that LR's out of gamut warning is On or Off. When I see there is an out of gamut section, I usually adjust the Hue, Saturation and Luminosity sliders and see which has the biggest affect on getting the color back into gamut. Is there a better solution to the On or Off LR gamut warning problem?

                                   

                                  Thanks for the picture of the comparison of the different gamuts. I still think that it will almost always be acceptable to me if my prints have a wider gamut than my monitor portrays. A little more colorful range? Why not? Theoretically the print should look more realistic if it shows more of the gamut my camera captured. If I was concerned about skin tones it might be different but I just print pics of wildlife and landscapes. But, I've only printed about thirty photos that are keepers and I am open to suggestion (I like to think.)

                                   

                                  Prints with Out of Gamut sections are relatively unacceptable but I don't see how a better monitor helps solve that problem.

                                  • 14. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    duglst wrote:

                                     

                                    Good questions and suggestions. I have two houses and want to have a monitor in both of them. I'll keep my older Dell AdobeRGB monitor in one and I'm trying to decide what monitor to get for the other.

                                    OK, that makes more sense now. You're using a 30" monitor now and may want to consider a 27" monitor with the same 2560 horizontal resolution for the other system.

                                     

                                    duglst wrote:

                                    I do always calibrate with a Spyder Pro 3 and final check edits before printing. When I calibrate I have the Spyder calibrate everything. I don't know what that includes.

                                    The Spyder 3 Pro only includes "visual" Luminosity calibration. There is a Spyder3Elite 4.0 upgrade package that allows entering an absolute Luminance value, which will help with setting proper Luminance for better print correlation. some good info here: https://luminous-landscape.com/why-are-my-prints-too-dark/

                                    • 15. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      It seems to me you attach far too much importance to gamut, whether monitor or print. Yes, it's a valid concern, but the primary consideration should be to get a good basic match from screen to print. Once you have that, you can start worrying about areas of out of gamut colors. Look at the whole before you start looking at details.

                                      My Spyder does correct luminosity

                                      That's just my point. There's no "correct" white point luminance as such. The right value is the one that gives you a visual match to paper white - that's the reference. You should "see" paper white on screen. But the particular value depends on a lot of things, not least the ambient light and your general working environment, which will affect your perception.

                                       

                                      You need to set that value yourself, the Spyder won't do it for you. It just uses a default if you don't tell it otherwise. You need to experiment a little. The usual recommendation is around 120 cd/m² for "average" viewing conditions, but it could turn out to be as low as 80 or as high as 160, depending.

                                       

                                      Obviously, the lighting you view the prints in is the other end of that equation. You can be very specific about this with a controlled viewing booth right next to your display, but for most general purposes you just aim for good, average light. The general principle is the same regardless: screen white = paper white.

                                       

                                      Do the same for white point color. It should again match paper white. This is often referred to simply as white point temperature (on the blue/yellow Kelvin scale), but the green/magenta balance may be equally important. Again, there is a generally recommended starting point, which is 6500 Kelvin, or D65 standard illuminant.

                                       

                                      Ideally you should also be able to set a black point or contrast range. This is important and often underrated, but many calibrators won't let you set this. I don't know if the Spyder does. The thing is that most monitors have a very high contrast range natively, around 1000:1 or more. But there's not a paper in the world that will give you those deep blacks. Even the very best glossy papers rarely exceed 300:1 - which means the printed result will always look disappointing, unless you've set a corresponding screen black point.

                                       

                                      Once you have all this established - it's not as complicated as it sounds; it just requires a little trial and error - you'll have a basic workable screen to print match. But until then, worrying about gamut issues is rather futile.

                                      • 16. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        duglst wrote:

                                        I understand that LR's out of gamut warning is On or Off. When I see there is an out of gamut section, I usually adjust the Hue, Saturation and Luminosity sliders and see which has the biggest affect on getting the color back into gamut. Is there a better solution to the On or Off LR gamut warning problem?

                                        That's my point. Since there's no indication of how far out of gamut an area is the initial assumption is "I need to fix it!" As D Fosse pointed out when the image is converted to the destination printer profile most gamut clipping does not cause any issues. Gamut clipping needs attention when it obscures fine detail in the out of gamut areas. If you are outputting to a wide-gamut printer this is when a wide gamut monitor can help. If you're not doing any Soft Proof out of gamut corrections then an sRGB monitor is fine, as you've pointed out. Here's an example of Red Hibiscus flower that will not even display properly on an sRGB monitor, so no sense trying to make out of gamut corrections.

                                         

                                        NEC PA272w Adobe RGB monitor versus sRGB Soft Proof in LR

                                        Adobe RGB to sRGB Compare.jpg

                                        Left-click on the picture and then right-click and select 'Save Image as' and then open it in LR or PS. If you have a wide-gamut monitor you will be able to see the difference.

                                        • 17. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                          duglst Level 1

                                          This is my interpretation of what you said:

                                          If I use an sRGB monitor and don't even bother to softproof, usually most out of gamut areas will print ok.

                                          If I get an AdobeRGB monitor and softproof, I'm more likely to try to fix out of gamut areas that would have been fine if I would have just left them alone and printed anyway.

                                          AdobeRGB monitors are better for editing than sRGB but fixing my luminance problems will probably make a bigger difference.

                                           

                                          .

                                          Right now I am at house 2 with only an old sRGB LCD. I downloaded the Hibiscus photo anyway and opened it in LR. In Softproof both halves had large sections that are out of gamut.

                                           

                                          Thanks to all the input here I have learned a lot about printing. Now I understand why luminosity is the most important aspect to calibrate. The "Why Are My Prints Too Dark" article is very helpful. There is so much that I can do to improve screen/print color matching!

                                          *Mostly I need to work in more consistent light.  From now on I will not work during daylight because too much variable light gets in through a nearby window.

                                          *I need to set the monitor luminosity to match my prints.

                                          *I need to find a way to illuminate the room with less light hitting the screen directly.

                                          *Set the monitor contrast to match that of paper.

                                          Now I see the value of having a "Customs settings option in a monitor. It would be nice to be able to quickly switch to editing specific settings.

                                          I think I can do a better job of calibrating my U3011 by going deeper into the settings. Hopefully I will be able to turn the AdobeRGB preset into a kind of a custom setting for editing for print.

                                          Later I'll work on the white point.

                                          • 18. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            duglst wrote:

                                             

                                            *Mostly I need to work in more consistent light.  From now on I will not work during daylight because too much variable light gets in through a nearby window.

                                            *I need to set the monitor luminosity to match my prints.

                                            *I need to find a way to illuminate the room with less light hitting the screen directly.

                                            *Set the monitor contrast to match that of paper.

                                             

                                            Later I'll work on the white point.

                                            Yep, you got all those right. Windows are always a potential problem, so you should try to find ways to minimize their impact. Although working in a dark cave is not necessary, the ambient lighting should be as consistent and unobtrusive as possible.

                                             

                                            duglst wrote:

                                             

                                            Now I see the value of having a "Customs settings option in a monitor. It would be nice to be able to quickly switch to editing specific settings.

                                            Precisely. And this is why I specifically mentioned Eizo ColorNavigator and NEC Spectraview. These are high-end calibration systems that are fully integrated with the monitor, and will give you a level of control other calibrator/monitor combinations aren't even close to. And yes, you can switch targets with a click, to accommodate different scenarios. Like this:

                                             

                                            colornav_targets.png

                                             

                                            (BTW I've later added a target with the black point as high as 0.7. It doesn't look impressive on screen, but it matches offset print well).

                                            • 19. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              duglst wrote:

                                              This is my interpretation of what you said:

                                              If I use an sRGB monitor and don't even bother to softproof, usually most out of gamut areas will print ok.

                                              If I get an AdobeRGB monitor and softproof, I'm more likely to try to fix out of gamut areas that would have been fine....

                                              Not exactly. The issue is how much difference is there between your monitor's and printer's gamut, and in what color areas. Upload your monitor profile and your most used printer paper profile here: ICCView - Upload and then compare them here: ICCView - 3D

                                               

                                              This is an Epson 4000 paper profile compared to a 4-year old standard gamut monitor calibration profile with a very aged CCFL backlight:

                                              Epson 4000 Paper vs Std Gamut Monitor.jpg

                                              This is the same Epson 4000 paper profile compared to a my new NEC PA272w wide gamut monitor profile:

                                              Epson 4000 Paper vs Wide Gamut Monitor.jpg

                                              You can see that even with the wide gamut monitor (~99% Adobe RGB) some of the printer's gamut falls outside the monitor's gamut, but a lot less! I can see Reds are now contained and will be accurate onscreen, but not the Blue to Green spectrum (turquoise). The need to "fix" out of gamut areas (as I explained previously) can be better determined onscreen when the printer gamut has a good fit inside the monitor's gamut. Of course this is all for naught if your monitor's Luminance setting doesn't match your printers output. It will still look wrong on paper regardless of how much you "fix" out of gamut areas.

                                              duglst wrote:

                                              *Mostly I need to work in more consistent light.  From now on I will not work during daylight because too much variable light gets in through a nearby window.

                                              Consider purchasing a monitor hood: http://www.photodon.com/c/Dell-hoods.html or make one out of heavy poster board and spray it with ultra flat black paint. Also consider drapes or blinds if the windows are on the South side of the house. Enjoy!

                                              • 20. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I have somewhat mixed feelings about hoods. If the room light is directly above or to the side a hood is very effective, but it does feel a bit claustrophobic. It tends to visually isolate the screen from the surroundings, which has the undesirable and slightly paradoxical side effect that it becomes more difficult to judge brightness. I can't explain it any better...

                                                 

                                                I do use hoods on both my monitors. The CG246 at work came with hood included; the CX240 I use at home didn't - so I made this one from heavy black cardboard:

                                                 

                                                cal_2.jpg

                                                 

                                                The thing with stray light on the panel is that it reduces contrast. This in itself is not always a bad thing if you're running the unit at native contrast, since that's almost always too high to begin with. The problem of course is that you can't control it. But if you're working without a hood you may have to make a small allowance for stray light in setting the black point.

                                                 

                                                Luckily I stopped using dual monitors a long time ago and no longer miss it. A hood will inevitably cut into the view of the other screen unless they're pretty far apart, so I don't think that would work very well.

                                                • 21. Re: Question about sRGB monitor and soft proofing AdobeRGB?
                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  I agree about hoods being a bit confining. When my system was setup on the South side of the house I used a simple cardboard hood on the left and top sides of the monitor only. It did the job of blocking window light, but kept the display more open. I'm now on the North side of the house with no direct sunlight and no hood is required.