16 Replies Latest reply on Apr 3, 2015 7:54 AM by Kals

    Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides

    Kals Level 1

      Hi fellow InDesigners

       

      I'm using InDesign CS6. I'm working with long documents that were originally created in previous versions (CS4 and possibly earlier). My standard workflow for these jobs is to do the bulk of the text formatting in a newly created, bare-bones, single column document. First, I load the paragraph and character styles from the template, and when I'm done I copy and paste the formatted text back into the template for final layout and typesetting. This used to work fine in CS4, but in CS6, all my paragraphs show the plus sign in the Paragraph Styles panel, indicating that they have been overridden. They should be identical, since I imported the styles from one file to the other. The overrides include drop cap alignment, and even more obscure things like 'IdeoSpaceBehavior' and 'Diacritic Positioning'.

       

      It seems likely to me that this problem is due to Adobe having changed the definition of the mysteriously ubiquitous '[No Paragraph Style]' style between versions. The template file has carried over the definition from CS4, but the newly created working files have the new definition, and since [No Paragraph Style] is not included when importing styles from one document to another, the inconsistency remains. Copying and pasting text with no overrides in one document, shows overrides in the other.

       

      So the simplest solution I can think of, would be to change the [No Paragraph Style] in the template to match the definition of new CS6 documents. Is this even possible? My Googling thus far suggests that [No Paragraph Style] is pretty much untouchable.

       

      Is there nothing for it but to create the template files again as new documents in CS6?

        • 1. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
          Michael Witherell Adobe Community Professional

          Some rules for blissful workflow:

           

          Always use paragraph styles for controlling the appearance of your flowing text. However, never use No Paragraph Style, since it isn't a style. Also, never use Basic Paragraph Style, nor base any other styles on it, since copy n pasting text with Basic Paragraph Style controlling it leads to confusingly redefining the ID document's Basic Paragraph Style. In MS Word, never use Normal nor base any Paragraph Styles in Word on Normal.

           

          Don't use Paragraph Styles in ID that arrived imported with the Word doc. Take the time to look at Show Import Options when you are placing text, so that you can map Word styles to properly made ID styles.

           

          Allow bits of italic text and bold text and the like to be dressed with Character Styles. This way, you will seldom ever see an evil plus sign indicating manually appled attribute overrides.

          • 2. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
            Kals Level 1

            Forgive me Michael, but your reply seems like a copy and paste, rather than specific to my question? I am using paragraph and character styles throughout, and none of the paragraph styles are based on [Basic Paragraph].

             

            As for never using [No Paragraph Style] if you can show me a way to create a paragraph style that is not based on this I'll have learnt something new! Even [Basic Paragraph] is based on [No Paragraph Style].

            • 3. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              I see this a lot, myself. Generally I just remove the overrides and move on. Think about exporting the template files from CS4 to .inx (if you still have CS4), then open that and save as a new .indt in CS6. You can clear overrides en masse with Find/Change by searching for a style and replacing with itself.

              • 4. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                Kals Level 1

                Ah, so INX strips the [No Paragraph Style] definition whereas IDML doesn't? In any case, CS4 isn't installed anymore.

                 

                As for removing overrides and moving on, yes, I've been doing the same thing, but it's aggravating my OCD no end. Also, I tend to have a few intentional overrides in there—not many, but maybe a few keep options, and restarted list numbering.

                 

                Is there any advantage to using Find/Change over the 'Clear Overrides' command?

                • 5. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Couldn't say about stripping the definition (and I suspect it doesn't). I just have always found .inx was more reliable at cleaning a file than .idml

                   

                  You should have NO overrides in a template. Make additional styles if you need them, based on the ones you have.

                   

                  The only advantage to find/change is you can "change all" in one click.

                  • 6. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                    Kals Level 1

                    At a rough count I already have over 50 paragraph styles in this thing, and you're telling me I can't throw in a few keep options here and there? ;-) When my web developer cap is on, I can apply more than one CSS style to the same object, thereby keeping the number of styles down. Can't do that with InDesign!

                     

                    You can 'Select All' and hit 'Clear Overrides' in one click too—whole document done. It would take me much longer to Find/Change each of my 50+ styles, unless I'm not understanding you correctly.

                    • 7. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                      TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      The occasional override is fine, in my opinion, precisely for the reason

                      you state: too many paragraph styles are unwieldy.

                       

                      You may find our Search in Styles add-on useful, and there's a 30-day

                      fully functional demo:

                       

                      http://www.id-extras.com/products/search-in-styles

                      • 8. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        You have only a single story, and still need 50 styles?

                        • 10. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                          Kals Level 1

                          What can I say, it's a good story! ;-)

                           

                          We've been doing this series of books for a long time (over 30 publications) and the number of styles has grown over the years. There's the basic paragraph style, then variations for less hyphens, better spacing, etc. There are headings of course, quotes, references, paragraphs with inline headings, bulleted and numbered lists (each three deep), table and figure titles, styles within tables and figures, footnotes, prelims, contents, form styles… So short answer, yes.

                          • 11. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                            Michael Witherell Adobe Community Professional

                            Sorry to be generalized in my reply, but I probably don't understand the problem clearly enough! I vaguely remember at one upgrade version that No Paragraph Style moved from the panel to the panel menu button and became Break Link to Style. Am I remembering that correctly? Maybe that occurred after CS4? Anyway, since No Paragraph Style is not a style, but rather an absence of any style, then I don't see how you could ever edit it.

                             

                            Also, I don't understand the extra steps you are making of piping in the styles, flowing and tagging the text, then pasting it back to the other document. Can you explain why the extra steps? Seems unnecessary to me, but maybe I don't understand.

                             

                            And are you sure you have examined all the styles to ensure that no style inherits from another style, especially being careful that no style inherits from Basic Paragraph Style?

                            • 12. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                              Kals Level 1

                              No worries Michael. Yes, I vaguely remember the change too.

                               

                              My understanding is, [No Paragraph Style] is very much a style—a paradoxically named style to be sure, but a style nonetheless. Check out the [Basic Paragraph] style definition by double clicking on it in the Paragraph Styles panel. It's style definition is: '[No Paragraph Style] + next: [Same style]'. That's it. Minion Pro 12 point, with auto leading—and every other conceivable paragraph attribute—all handled by [No Paragraph Style]. Adobe needed some defaults, and that's what [No Paragraph Style] is—just a default style. You can never escape it either, since every style, no matter what it's based on, has [No Paragraph Style] as its most senior ancestor.

                               

                              So that's essentially my problem. Adobe has, in their wisdom, changed the [No Paragraph Style] style between versions, so that a document originally created in an earlier version and a document created in CS6 have different [No Paragraph Style] settings. I'm pretty confident this is the cause of my problems.

                               

                              Lots of my paragraph styles inherit from other styles. Why would I not want that? My custom 'Paragraph' style has lots of other styles based on it—from typesetting variations, to quotes, lists, etc. But the 'Paragraph' style itself is based on [No Paragraph Style]. As I said, you can't really escape [No Paragraph Style].

                              • 13. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                                Kals Level 1

                                Oh, while I think to mention it, the 'Select All’, 'Clear Overrides' combo has one major drawback, even when you only have one story… It doesn’t select text within tables or footnotes. But I found this great little script called ‘Clear All Overrides.jsx’ that gets it right: http://www.id-extras.com/clear-overrides-throughout-document

                                 

                                Well, it almost got it right. I had to modify one line to get it to work, but looks like the author has now fixed it.

                                • 14. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                                  Kals Level 1

                                  In the absence of any ideas on how to change [No Paragraph Style], I just decided to recreate the template. Took me over an hour, but problem solved. Text now copies across without any unintended overrides.

                                   

                                  Thanks for all your comments everyone.

                                  • 15. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    The root [No Paragraph Style] has changed in different versions, which isn't surprising since there are style attributes that have been added (like GREP styles). In CS3 the root font was Times and now it's Minion Pro, which is a required font with the ID install—Times is ubiquitous but not necessarily present on every system. If you try and change the root [No Paragraph Style] via scripting you'll get an error, but you can get a list of its properties.

                                     

                                    Sounds like it's too late but I wonder if an easier solution would have been to redefine the styles via the Paragraph Style panel's flyout menu rather than go through every paragraph and remove the overrides?

                                    • 16. Re: Changes to [No Paragraph Style] causing unwanted style overrides
                                      Kals Level 1

                                      Thanks Rob. When upgrading the old CS4 files to CS6, I’d assume any new style attributes would adopt the new defaults, so that shouldn’t logically cause the problems we’re seeing. I don’t even know what 'IdeoSpaceBehavior' and 'Diacritic Positioning' are, but they’re the troublemakers.

                                       

                                      Yeah I had considered redefining all the styles after copying and pasting the text back in, thinking that if I then made a new template based on that, it may stop the problems from reoccurring next time. I actually started doing this, but it felt messy and I wasn’t even sure it would work. In the end I thought just recreating the template as a new file in CS6 would be a cleaner way, ensuring in future that all files are using the CS6 default [No Paragraph Style]. Indeed that did the trick.

                                       

                                      As for removing overrides, this was indeed what I was trying to avoid (since I’d lose some intentional overrides in the process)… but I was never doing this one paragraph at a time. As I said to P Spier, I was doing a 'Select All’ and 'Clear Overrides’. And then I found the ‘Clear All Overrides.jsx’ script which makes it even easier, since it includes tables and footnotes.