15 Replies Latest reply on Apr 26, 2015 10:16 AM by Lutzzz

    Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames

    Lutzzz Level 1

      I'm using Premiere Elements 12 and cutting MOV files in most cases.

      Now I detected that PE isn't rendering always correctly: In some cases the rendered file shows at the end of a clip 1 more frame than in it shows in the cutting window.

       

      Meaning: The original MOV clip contains 2 scenes. I import the MOV file into my PE12 project and put it into the cutting window.

      Then I'm moving the viewing bar of the cutting window exactly to the end of scene 1 and click "cut".

      When I separate both scenes in the cutting window, PE12 show exactly the result I want to get: scene 1 ends with the last frame of scene 1, scene 2 starts with the first frame of scene 2.

       

      Then I delete scene 2 and render scene 1 to a MP4 file.

      When viewing the result file in any player (e.g. Windows Medie Player, VLC, Quicktime), all these players show at the end of scene 1 the first frame of the original scene 2.

      Again: even if I couldn't see this first frame of scene 2 in the cutting window!

       

      So the cutting window doesn't show EXACTLY the result I will get!

      I already tries different ways of importing the original MOV files, different codecs and so on - nothing helped.

      In roughly 50% the cuts of the final file are like planned, the other 50% of cuts show one frame too much at the end of a scene.

       

      Problem: In a lot of cases the scenes are already very short, so I can't give always "one frame plus" before I cut: sometimes I really need every single frame.

      And I can't believe that a programm like Premiere Elements should not be able to cut exactly at the frame where it is supposed to!

       

      So does anyone have a clou what I'm doing wrong?

      Or this this a knows issue of PE?

       

      Thanks in advance!

        • 1. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          Lutzzz

           

          When you talk about the "cutting window" I am assuming that you are referring to the Preview Window which you bring up by double clicking the file's thumbnail in Project Assets? But that is where I lose you because you refer to clicking on "cut". There is no "cut" in the Preview Window, just Set In and Set Out points.

          The use of the Preview Window is described in the following

          ATR Premiere Elements Troubleshooting: PE11: Project Assets Organization for Scene and Highlight Grabs from Collection o…

          And, dragging the Preview Window segment to the Timeline should give you from the first and the last frame of the segment and nothing beyond that. Are you using the arrow keys to zero in on the last frame of one clip and the first frame of the next part so that your segment does not include the first frame of the next part?

           

          If all of the above is met, then there is one place where you might be getting into trouble on the Timeline with that extra frame.

          When you drag the Preview Window trim to the Timeline, the frames that were trimmed away are hidden not really cut away. So, if you take your mouse cursor, you can drag the trim out to recover the whole clip. Could you be dragging on the end of the clip to extend it a frame once it is on the Timeline?

           

          Trimming clips works just fine in Premiere Elements Preview Windows as well as cutting the Timeline file on the Timeline with the scissors tool in the stem of the Timeline Indicator.

           

          I think that we will have a better understanding of what is happening after you review the above and give more detail of what you are doing.

           

          Looking forward to your follow up.

           

          Thank you.

           

          ATR

          • 2. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
            Lutzzz Level 1

            Dear ATR,

             

            thanks one mor time

             

            I'm sorry, I didn't mean the preview window, I mean the timeline when I used the term "cutting window". It's hard to guess the right English terms because I'm using the German user interface of PE

             

            I'm using the arrow keys to position the cutting bar / viewing position bar and put the bar such way, that I see in the window above the first frame of scene 2 (because when I understand PE right, I see and hear the frame right of the positioning/cutting bar, right). Then I click "cut" and seperate the to scenes. Controlling them in the timeline, scene 1 end correctly with the last frame of scene 1 and scene 2 starts correctly with the first frame of scene 2.

             

            But when I render the project, in roughly 50% of all cuts the result is different: Where I'm using scene 1 e.g., the rendered result file shows sometimes the first frame of scene 2 at the end of scene 1. So the cut comes 1 frame too late. Even if everything looked right in the timeline.

             

            I'm guessing that this might occur because the import of a source file (MOV in most cases) is not transferred correctly to the data I'm seeing in the timeline. Or that some project settings might force the rendering process to take one frame too much while rendering scene 1. But I tried out rendering with progressive as well as interlaced and it didn't make any difference. That's why I'm wondering now if I do something wrong or maybe PE isn't able to cut exactly at the very frame I want to and if PE is using a method that doesn't guarantee an exact frame-by-frame cutting/rendering. But if PE should be able to do so, I would love to know how to do better

             

            Kind regards,

            Lutz

            • 3. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
              A.T. Romano Level 7

              Lutz

               

              Thanks for the additional information about your video splitting issue.

               

              Please try the Timeline cuts including the following steps....

               

              1. Change the Timeline timecode to frames. To do that, do either of the following in the Expert workspace

              a. Hold down the Ctrl key of the computer main keyboard as you click on the timecode above the Timeline/below the monitor.

              or

              b. Go to Edit Menu/Project Settings/General and change the Display Format to Frames.

               

              2. When you are in the Expert workspace, expand the Timeline with the -+ slider above the Timeline so that you get the best possible view of the Timeline where you are going to cut. If you have a whole video clip that has parts A, B, and C and you want to cut out B, then....

               

              Watch the Expert workspace Edit area monitor and go by what you see there...

               

              a. With the right arrow key, move the Timeline Indicator to the first frame in B (the place where one less tap of the arrow key would display the last frame of A). Then click on the scissors tab on the stem of the Timeline Indicator (or use Ctrl+K) to make the cut there.

              and then

              b. With the right arrow key, move the Timeline Indicator to the last frame of B (the place where one more tap of the arrow key would display the first frame of C). Then click on the scissors tab on the stem of the Timeline Indicator (or use Ctrl+K) to make the cut there.

               

              Then export that segment selectively using both (you need both for this to work)

              a. setting the gray tabs of the Work Area Bar to span just the B portion

              and

              b. in the export settings, having a check mark next to "Share Work Area Bar Only".

               

              graytabs10.JPG

              The screenshot was done with a version earlier than 11, 12, or 13, but the principles of the gray tabs setting in Edit as well as the Share Work Area Bar in export are demonstrated. In this earlier version, Share would be comparable to your Publish+Share in your version 12.

               

              Please review and consider, and then let me know if you have done all of the above and still have the issue of the extra frame in the exports.

               

              Thank you.

               

              ATR

              • 4. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                Lutzzz Level 1

                Dear ATR,

                 

                I will try to edit the next project with the Timeline changed to frames instead of timecode - maybe this already helps. But it will take some days ... I'll come back to you

                 

                Isn't there a way to see timecode information even if I switched the Timeline to frame layout? In an additional tool window or something? Because the time information is very important for me: I would miss them heavily whil I'm just seeing frame numbers in the Timeline!

                 

                In fact, my projects are a little more complex in reality: Let's say you have a source video with 50 very short scenes like a movie trailer, then I'll pick out about 20 of those scenes, bring them into a new order and then render the result. That's why I don't need and don't have to try out the thing you described with just rendering the working space area ... 

                And why the result has to be exactly cut and rendered at the very same frame I see in the Timeline (meaning: on the Timeline monitor).

                 

                Again: I'll come back to you asap!

                 

                Kind regards,

                Lutz

                • 5. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                  Lutz

                   

                  Thanks for the replies.

                   

                  At this point, I just want to determine if it will make a difference in your results if you use the frame or timecode display format.

                  It should not make a difference. You should not be getting that extra frame with those cuts.

                   

                  If necessary, switching between the two display formats is as easy as Ctrl clicking the area where the frame count or timecode is displayed above the Timeline. The change there is also reflected in the Preview Window which is opened by double clicking a file's thumbnail in Project Assets.

                   

                  The main visual tool for success is in watching the display in the monitor as you move the Timeline Indicator across the Timeline with the arrow key as per the example given in post 3.

                   

                  ATR

                  • 6. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                    Lutzzz Level 1

                    Dear ATR,

                     

                    I now found some time to check this out.

                    Let me describe exactly what I'm doing:

                     

                    Source file is a MOV file full HD.

                    Drag & drop it onto the timeline.

                     

                    Set half frame option (is it called "field"?) to "reduce flickering" - because if I don't (default option: "none"), the rendered result is not that stable, meaning the picture is totterling a little. Is this normal? Could this setting cause the trouble with the last frame at cutting/rendering?

                     

                    Switched Timeline to frame display instead of timecode.

                    By the way: this CTRL + clicking the area above the Timeline doesn't work ...

                     

                    Moved the Timeline bar with the arrow keys to the position where I want to cut; the Monitor Window above the Timeline showed the first frame of scene 2. Doublechecked by moving the cursor with the arrow keys one frame forward and back again to really got the right position (twice). Clicked "cut" icon on Timeline.

                     

                    Repeated the same at the end of scene 2 - the Monitor showed the first frame of scene 3.

                    Moved scene 2 to another position on the Timeline with the mouse (drag & drop).

                    Checked cuts on the timeline: scene 2 showed the first and last frame as it should.

                     

                    Repeated all this with 10 scenes from the original MOV file, brought all of them into a new position and thus order.

                     

                    Deleted the rest of the original MOV file from the timeline.

                    Put the 10 scenes together, placed them at the left side of the Timeline.

                     

                    Rendered the result.

                    Settings: AVCHD - MP4

                    PAL, 1920 x 1080 px, 30 fps, Widescreen 16:9, Profile: High, Level: 5.0

                    rendern with max depth: "no"

                    VBR, 2-path

                    target: 15 mbps

                    max: 25 mbps

                     

                    Audio; AAC, stereo, 48 Khz, Quality: high, 160 kbps

                    Priority: Bitrate

                     

                    The result file showes on 4 of 10 scenes that one frame too much at the end of the cut scene.

                    And it always happens at the same scenes, not randomly!

                    So it does not depend if I'm viewing frames or timecode in the Timeline. Surprise!

                     

                    But what I detected: When I'm using a "new project", this issue does not occur!!!

                     

                    So I looked at the project settings: The "new project" I let the default settings be, because it I should import a file and drag this to the Timeline, the software would give me a message if the project settings should not match.

                     

                    Default settings are: NTSC-ADCHD-AVCHD 1080p60.

                     

                    But what I normally do is using a template file with all my intro, outro, audio, logo and so on, copy that *.prel file where I want to edit it, rename it and then open this copied prel file. Here I the project settings show:

                     

                    HD 1080i, 25 fps, 1920 x 1080 (I guess I once selected this under PAL because there is no PAL 1080p25 oder 30, just 1080p50). And I'm from Germany, so I chose PAL instead of NTSC ...

                     

                    So I guess this makes a difference - even if I do not have a clue, why.

                     

                    Big question now: How can I chance my project settings in my template file without making it anew?

                    Because I cannot copy all the objects from one project to another, right? At least I never managed to do so...

                     

                    To built the template anew would take about 6 hours, and on this basic template are based 6 more templates for special formats. So makeing all templates anew would cost me up to 2-3 days!!!

                     

                    So I really hope for a better solution

                     

                    Kind regards,

                    Lutz

                    • 7. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                      Lutzzz Level 1

                      Dear ATR

                       

                      here's an addendum, maybe you can tell me what the best project settings would be.

                       

                      Most of my source files come as MOV, 1080p30 or 1080p60

                      The others are from my video camera: MTS, 1080i25

                       

                      For both I do not have any choice: the files come as they are and the camera offers just 1080i25 or 1080i50.

                       

                      Output as said above: 1080p30

                       

                      So please let me know what project I should chose and how to chance them on the existing template files.

                      Or how to import all the objects of the existing template files to the new template files.

                       

                      Thanks again in advance!

                       

                      Kind regards,

                      Lutz

                      • 8. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                        Lutzzz

                         

                        This post is in reply to your post numbered 6.

                         

                        1. Unless you have a "flicker" problem (typically associated with interlaced video) do not apply any Field Options (accessed right click of clip, selection of Field Options/Flicker Removal from pop up). If you do need to address a flicker problem, look at instead selection of Timeline clip and then Anti-Flicker Filter accessed Applied Effects Tab/Applied Effects Palette/Motion Panel expanded (at bottom).

                         

                        2. You wrote

                        Switched Timeline to frame display instead of timecode.

                        By the way: this CTRL + clicking the area above the Timeline doesn't work ...

                        Thanks for looking at that consideration. When you held down the Ctrl key of the computer main keyboard did you click the timecode below the Edit area monitor/above the Timeline?

                        ctrlclick.jpg

                         

                        3. Regarding the issue of the extra frame seen after video cut. You wrote

                        But what I detected: When I'm using a "new project", this issue does not occur!!!

                        Before we follow up on the new, back to the old for a moment. When you are observing this extra frame, do you have a video transition between the two frames between which you are transitioning? There could be many reasons for why you do not have a problem with this extra frame in a new project, reason other than project settings. We need to rule in or out the factor of a video transition.

                         

                        4. About changing project settings without having to start a new project.....According to Adobe history, you cannot change project settings once they have been established. You have to start a new project. But, I have shown how to do this. I can do this up to and including Premiere Elements 12/12.1. I cannot for Premiere Elements 13/13.1.

                        See ATR Premiere Elements Troubleshooting: PE11: Changing Project Settings Without Starting A New Project

                        I do this by editing the Notepad document for the saved project file (.prel).

                        Sometimes it is easier to start a new project. But, you need to weigh the factors for what is in your best interests.

                         

                        The post to follow will address the project settings asked about in your post numbered 7.

                         

                        Thanks for the follow ups and additional information.

                         

                        ATR

                        • 9. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          Lutzzz

                           

                          Regarding your post numbered 7.....also refer to my post numbered 8.

                           

                          1080p30 Export Settings

                           

                          Publish+Share

                          Computer

                          AVCHD

                          with Presets = MP4 H.264 1920 x 1080p30

                          under the Advanced Button/Button of the preset.....set for....

                          projectsettings.JPG

                          I would go with the Pixel Aspect Ratio = Square Pixels rather than Widescreen 16:9.

                           

                          If your major sources are 1080p30 and 1080p60, I would manually set the project preset for

                          NTSC

                          DSLR

                          1080p

                          DSLR 1080p30@29.97

                          Do that using

                          File Menu/New/Project and Change Settings

                          In Change Settings, set project preset to DLSR settings given above. OK out of there.

                          In the New Project that opens, rename the project and put a check mark next to Force Selected Project Setting on This Project. OK out of there.

                          Back in the Expert workspace, import your files into the project.

                           

                          Now the matter of the 1080i25 or 1080i50 that you have incorporated into this project. Is this where you are seeing the flicker in the Timeline playback before export and/or in the export? More on that next.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                            Lutzzz Level 1

                            Dear ATR,

                             

                            thanks once more four your very quick reply!

                             

                            #1: I won't do that anymore, thanks!

                             

                            #2: Switching to frame number display mode: I clicked in the section above the Timeline, but not exacly on the numbers, no I got it: works! Thanks!

                             

                            #3: What do you mean with "video transition"? Do you mean any effect? Then the answer is no: I just have the several pieces ("scenes"), cut together, all one after each other, side by side, in the same row/track of the Timeline ("Video 1"). "cheek to cheek"

                            Otherwise please let me know what a "video transition" is

                             

                            #4: In case I guessed right in #3 and I have no "video transitions",  I would prefer to edit the *.prel files A MILLION TIMES than putting all together anew what would take several days!!!

                             

                            So please let me know what I have to change (old - new codes): I already had a look with NotePad into one of these files: that's pretty much code! Not easy to find a special piece for project settings (e.g. to change PAL to NTSC or 1080i to 1080p what I guess are two of the reasons why I got the trouble with that 1 frame too much).

                             

                            #5 (new): By the way: You wrote that I should choose 1080p30@29.97 in the project settings - I always wondered why this 29.97 fps exist at all and why it's not just 30. So I always took 30 fps wherever I had the choice to. But now that you explicitly mentioned the 29.97 fps I'm wondering the more   Maybe you can help me out and explain this to me so that I know for all times when I have to choose 30 fps and where 29.97 fps is the right setting?

                             

                            Thanks again in advance!

                             

                            Kind regards,

                            Lutz

                            • 11. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                              Lutzzz Level 1

                              Sorry, I forgot one answer:

                               

                              You asked, if the problems with the flicker occur on the 1080i25 (*.mts) source files only.

                              No, I have/had that issue with all sources, meaning also with the 1080p30 or 1080p60 (*.mov) files I meantioned.

                               

                              The flicker occurs in the Timeline playback monitor - but that's always the case I already checked from the very beginning. That's not disturbing me very much - but if there's a way to avoid that, I would prefer no flickering in that preview

                               

                              No, the issue occurs in the rendered files, too (as told before: MP4 - H.264 - 1080p30), but with PAL instead of NTSC and 30 fps instead of 29.97. Can the flicker have anything to do with these two divergences?

                               

                              Kind regards,

                              Lutz

                              • 12. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                Lutzzz

                                 

                                Part 1. Restatement....

                                 

                                Regarding the cutting of the clips and the extra frame matter....we have looked at timecode vs frame settings for the Display format. I have gone into Premiere Elements 12/12.1 and done some exploration and experimentation. The following such eliminate the matter independent of whether the Display format is timecode or frame.

                                 

                                What you see in the Edit area monitor is going to be your what is important.

                                If you have a whole video clip that has 3 scenes and you want to cut the whole video into the 3 scenes....A, B, C

                                1. Move the Timeline Indicator to the right until you see the first frame of B in the monitor. Cut.

                                2. Move the Timeline Indicator to the further right until you see the first frame of C in the monitor. Cut.

                                Does each of those 3 clips start and end where you want them to?

                                 

                                Back in post 3 I wrote

                                Watch the Expert workspace Edit area monitor and go by what you see there...

                                 

                                a. With the right arrow key, move the Timeline Indicator to the first frame in B (the place where one less tap of the arrow key would display the last frame of A). Then click on the scissors tab on the stem of the Timeline Indicator (or use Ctrl+K) to make the cut there.

                                and then

                                b. With the right arrow key, move the Timeline Indicator to the last frame of B (the place where one more tap of the arrow key would display the first frame of C). Then click on the scissors tab on the stem of the Timeline Indicator (or use Ctrl+K) to make the cut there.

                                Ignore that. The section b should have read...

                                b. With the right arrow key, move the Timeline Indicator to the first frame of C (the place where one less tap of the arrow key would display the last frame of B). Then click on the scissors tab on the stem of the Timeline Indicator (or use Ctrl+K) to make the cut there.

                                 

                                That should have your cuts without one extra frame.

                                 

                                Part 2. Flicker with progressive video....

                                 

                                a. For Premiere Elements, are you using a computer monitor or a TV monitor? I have seen reports that of Canon 60D progressive video with flicker in TV monitor but not computer monitor. Is the flicker seen at playback of the progressive or interlaced video seen at time of greater motion in the video content being played back? Please remind me if, at this time, the flicker is only present in the previewing before export and not in the export.

                                 

                                Thanks.

                                 

                                ATR

                                • 13. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                                  Lutzzz Level 1

                                  Dear ATR,

                                   

                                  thanks once more for your reply!

                                   

                                  I used the weekend to try Premiere Pro once more and now made the effort to go through dozens of tutorial textt and videos ... I now got at least the big image of Pro and how it works

                                   

                                  First: On the very same computer, there's no flicker in the preview monitor, using the same source files like in Elements. So I guess Pro is using the GPU for the preview, too - and Elements doesn't. I guess that's why I see flicker with Elements but not with Pro.

                                   

                                  Second: Rendering with the correct project settings, the cut are correct - in Elements as well as in Pro. I guess the reason is some trouble between PAL and 1080i settings in the project options and the NTSC and 1080p rendering options. But this doesn't matter anymore because ...

                                   

                                  There are several advantages of the Pro version I really learned to like ... so I guess I will change to the Pro version!

                                   

                                  So I guess I have to built anew all my templates, right? Because when I import prel files, I just get one track, not every signle object of the timeline. Or how can I make Pro import correctly all objekt and effect pro Elements?

                                   

                                  BUT: I'm really missing some features of the Elements version! I can't believe that there really should be things in Elements, the Pro version doesn't support!

                                   

                                  E.g.: In Elements I could righ click on a video or audio track in the Timeline and then pick the option "transitions": Audio Fade-in, Audio Fade-Out, Video Fade-in, Video Fade-Out. This made it very quick to get a transision von 0 to 100 or other way round. Do I really have to get manually to the Effects Option tab and set the keyframes manually to 0 and 100? Why isn't this option in the right click window in Pro? Or where do I find this feature in Pro?

                                   

                                  And I found it impossible to set the option "Export segment" in "Export - Media" to "all" as default - it always jumps back to "workspace" instead of keeping the last chosen option. Or where can I change this setting?

                                   

                                  Can you help me with these questions, too?

                                   

                                  Kind regards,

                                  Lutz

                                  • 14. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                                    Lutzzz

                                     

                                    Thanks for the follow up.

                                     

                                    I do not work with Premiere Pro, so I have not investigated its workflows as I have for Premiere Elements versions. Please explore the Adobe Premiere Pro Forum for best advise on matters Premiere Pro.

                                    Premiere Pro CC

                                     

                                    From what I have read, I cannot find Fade shortcuts in Premiere Pro descriptions. The Fades seems to target Effects Control and Opacity there.

                                     

                                    As for the selective export of a Timeline segment when you are using Premiere Pro, I found the following link online giving a suggested how to

                                    Exporting Sections of a Sequence

                                     

                                    Best wishes as you move forward with your video projects. If you revisit Premiere Elements, we will look forward to sharing Premiere Elements comments and troubleshooting with you.

                                     

                                    ATR

                                    • 15. Re: Premiere Elements 12: Rendering not on the exact frames
                                      Lutzzz Level 1

                                      Dear ATR,

                                       

                                      great, thanks!

                                       

                                      Kind regards,

                                      Lutz