13 Replies Latest reply on Jan 4, 2017 1:07 AM by john beardsworth

    How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?

    DarkClown

      Since at least Version 3 of LR users urgently request to to be able to turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords. Is it still impossible to turn this unwanted sorting of? Agencies request a custom order in the keywords which is constantly destroyed by LR. It would be a simple checkbox to turn this stupid "feature" of. But maybe I haven't found the "disable" switch yet ... has somebody got some experience with this topic?

       

      Thanks for your answers

        • 1. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
          john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          That's how LR works - there's no switch. Alphabetical sorting means one can easily review an image's keywords, while manually-ordered keywording is just the business practice of Alamy and some other agencies - not an IPTC standard which LR would certainly observe.

          • 2. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
            DarkClown Level 1

            I do understand why alphabetical sorting of keywords might be an additional and nice feature. But many people have requested turning this feature of for a long time. And since Adobe programmers had to add additional subroutines to supply this feature it would be an absolut no-brainer (I do write software myself) NOT supporting this additional effort and INDUSTRIE AND CUSTOMERS DEMAND IT. I'm appaled to see that Adobe ignores basic (and absolout easy to implement) features ... or, to describe it more appropriate: why they (you) implement features that prevent basic needs! It's definately a "nice to have" ... but it completely ruins my (and many other peoples) workflow! I'm a professional photographer (as many other customers are as well) and I don't care if this feature is against anyones "policies" and "standards" because my standarts are set by the agencies I work with and not by Adobe! I can't belive how ignorant a company can be towards professional customers, when it comes to EXCLUDING a feature that is so simple to exclude. Are you aware that LR ruins the order of keywords even with files that have not even been imported to LR? I export a file from LR to PS, save it with keywords in my order as TIFF and seconds later the new TIFF File has a changed keyword order (of the new and not even imported file) and PS wants to reload it because it was already changed by LR! The only soloution is to close LR before saving the TIFF file and starting LR again to work with the next file ... That's a nightmare! And I'm very disappointed that it even does not work with LR6!

            • 3. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
              john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              It's a niche requirement, and not needed by all LR's professional users - just a minority of that group. Most agencies don't require it, while those that want it all have slightly different requirements. If an agency uses such order-based weighting in their algorithms, it would be in their own self interest to create their own LR plugin that meets their specific requirements - which are their own business practices and not industry standards like the IPTC's.

              • 4. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                Please add your vote and opinion to this feature request in the official Adobe feedback forum: Lightroom: Custom sort order of keywords (instead of alphabetic).

                • 5. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                  DarkClown Level 1

                  John, with all respekt, it's not a niche requirement ... it is the normal untouched situation of keywords to be saved in the same manner as entered. This is the de-facto standard! If Adobe brings it to the next level by adding an additional feature. This may really nice (for those who need it and can appreciate it).
                  Talking about standards: I spend the effort and checking the official IPTC standards. There is no such thing as an alphabetical order of keyword in the IPTC Standard (based on IPTC Photo Metadata: Core 1.2 Extension 1.2 (Oct 2014) - Doc. Rev. 13)! You may check it out yourself here: IPTC Standard - IPTC (page 16 if this is of help) - this wannabe "Industrie Standard" was just made up by you to support your weak arguments. Honestly spoken I don't know any other metadata programm that sorts keywords automatical in an alphabetical order! They all leave them untouched (so much for "standard") ... and again, it is not Adobe to tell me what requirements I shoud have ... it's up to the agencies that pay me to define what they need! And considering that it would completely satisfy my needs when Adobe had the keywords untouched I don't think it is asked to much to implement a checkbox alowing me NOT to use a destructive feature. And tell me one reason why companies should develop a plug-in that restaurates a state of keywords that has always been there until Adobe gets involved? This is completely ridiculous! And I'm not even sure if this automatically initiated process of destroying the keyword order could even be overwritten by a plugin sind it's done without explicit initiation (LR just does it when it accesses a file).

                   

                  But to get back to my original question: Is there a way to prevent LR from reloading and including a file that has not even been officially imported into LR? I export my CR2 file from LR, change it in PS and save it as TIFF. THIS new file now is automatically included in the LR hierachy AND keywordwise destroyed. Is there a way to prevent LR from including this newly generated file. This way the keyword order from PS (that thankfully and wisely has not implemented this sorting "standard" to the metadata) would remain untouched!

                  • 6. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                    john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    To avoid automatic import, don't use Edit With to edit the CR2 in PS. Instead export as a TIFF, and in the Export dialog's post processing steps put Photoshop as a shortcut, and ensure you don't choose Add to Catalog. It takes the same time to get the file to Photoshop.

                     

                    For the vast majority of LR's professional users the keyword order doesn't matter, the agencies that do use keyword order algorithms are a minority of the stock industry, and each has subtly different requirements that get in the way of generic solutions such as Adobe would offer. Alamy are one of the biggest that does use keyword order, and the Alamy plugin apparently does facilitate it.

                     

                    I am not at all surprised you can't find a stipulation for alphabetical keywords in the standard. That's why did not say that there is one, though there is support for agencies to add their own xmp fields to support whatever manually-ordered keyword data they need. What I have said is that if there was an IPTC standard that supported those agencies' practices of manual ordering, you would be right to expect Adobe to follow it. There isn't, so they don't.

                     

                    At least they don't in Lightroom. When I last looked, Bridge also leaves your keywords in manual order, but that's because the keyword text strings are written in real time to the image. With LR, the keywords' database IDs are recorded against the photos, which means that unlike Bridge you can subsequently change a keyword's spelling (synonyms, export status etc) and it is applied to all the photos tagged with it. Last time I looked I didn't find any record in the LR database of the order in which keywords had been typed, so I just don't think it's just a simple matter of turning off the alphabetical re-ordering.

                    • 7. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                      DarkClown Level 1

                      John, thank you for that hint - this was helpful as a workaround!! At least it prevents closing and starting LR allover again and again. And deleting all generated TIFF files afterwars is just a few clicks. Would "Edit with" do the same job if I do not select PSD but TIFF as file format? Would it make a difference if I use the second Editor with TIFF format? Or is the EXPORT command required for LR to leave the resulting file untouched?

                       

                      PS and Bridge interestingly do not sort keywords automatically - same developer, different policy. (But I have to be careful with this statement since PS6 was mal last PS Version. I will not by any CC products so I can't comment on CC Versions). This is all inconsitent and makes me wonder about adobe internal policies!
                      If there is NO standard that defines keyword order - why does Adobe feel entitled to set one - and, even worse - why do they ONLY accept their OWN standard (which is probably nice to have for some people) but just not compatibel with every customer needs? And if they feel like they aggressively want to set a "standard" by themselves against customer requirements, why don't they consequently do it with all their products but only with LR? This all makes no sense to me ... but by the looks of it I will have to live with it and find a workflow excluding LR


                      • 8. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                        john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Export is needed because I was addressing your "Is there a way to prevent LR from including this newly generated file?"  In fact, there is a quick way to avoid re-importing if you use Edit With - in PS duplicate the new image, close the first image without saving, work on the duplicate and save it. TIF or PSD doesn't matter - I only mentioned TIF because you had, and because there's rarely any need to use the proprietary PSD format.

                         

                        Alphabetisation happens whenever you Export, Edit With, or Save Metadata to File. If the TIF with your "corrected" keyword order is imported back into LR, and no metadata is then written to it by LR, the keywords in the file itself will be as you changed them, whatever may be displayed in LR's Keywording panel. You can re-open it in PS by using Show in Explorer/Finder (Ctrl R/ Cmd R) and then double clicking it. Or on Mac, you can drag the file from LR's grid and drop on Photoshop in the dock. But alphabetising always happens with Export, Edit With, or Save Metadata to File.

                         

                        The fundamental reason for the "same developer, different policy" is what I described above, though I'd say "behaviour" rather than "policy". PS/Br is writing the keyword text string to the image in real time, while LR is storing each photo's keywords in a database table which holds the photo's ID and the keyword's ID. In PS/Br there was probably no reason to alphabetise keywords, and I doubt its manual keyword ordering was ever a conscious design feature that LR developers might have copied. In any case LR was deliberately a ground up design.

                        • 9. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                          DarkClown Level 1

                          Thanks again John. I could even include this into one of my standard "actions" to ensure the right format for my agency. Might be an acceptable workaround ...

                          • 10. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                            ABFoxEF

                            If you don't care about the keywords in lightroom (say you're doing it only for Alamy) how about just entering all your keywords (in lightroom) without the comma separator. Use just a space and from what I've seen Lightroom will see them as one long keyword. This will prevent reordering.

                             

                            ETA...I haven't actually tested this with Alamy, but plan to on my next upload.

                            • 11. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                              shashinjin Level 2

                              "It's a niche requirement" - are you kidding?

                               

                              When Adobe Stock its very self requires you to submit keywords in order of importance (heck it even has a tooltip that detects you are submitting from LR if they're all alphabetical) then it's time for Adobe to act on this.

                               

                              Thousands of customers who pay them have asked for a simple on/off option for alphabetical keywording. It's not hard to implement and if they now require you to submit keywords in a particular way, their products should enable it.

                              • 12. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                                johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                                This is a user-to-user forum in which Adobe product developers rarely participate. Please add your me-too vote and detailed feedback to this topic in the official Adobe feedback forum: Lightroom: Custom sort order of keywords (instead of alphabetic). | Photoshop Family Customer Community . Product developers do read every post there, and they sometimes reply.  So far, 23 people have me-tooed that feature request.

                                • 13. Re: How do I turn of the automatic alphabetical sorting of keywords in LR6?
                                  john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  shashinjin wrote:

                                   

                                  "It's a niche requirement" - are you kidding?

                                   

                                  Not at all, and as I pointed out, most pros don't need it, most stock agencies don't require it, and the few agencies that do so have individual requirements - first 5 keywords, first 3, or all of them etc. I doubt Lightroom itself will change - custom keyword order is a business practice and not an IPTC standard - so I suggest your best route is to see if the Adobe Stock plugin could be modified. So apart from following John Ellis's advice, look for the Adobe Stock forum or other ways of contacting that team. It'll be a bigger deal for them.