5 Replies Latest reply on May 30, 2015 1:27 PM by Randy Hagan

    Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option

    rsukhram@tgioa.com Level 1

      Good day,

       

      I am creating pages as separate documents (including a TOC).  I recently learned that ID can insert blank pages into a book if I want my linked pages to start on the left (like if they are an uneven number of pages).  This helps me for duplexed printed jobs.  What i did not realize is that it adds the blank pages to the linked documents permanently (or so it seems when I open those linked docs).

       

      I create a price book that I export to PDF for electronic needs (with a TOC that has bookmarks and hyperlinks).  I also create the same PDF for printing.  I only need the blank pages for the printable version and not the electronic version.  I would also like to make changes to 1 source link that both the electronic and printable PDF share so instead of editing 2 files I edit 1, sync and export or print.   Is there a better approach for this?

       

      thanks all,

      Lo

        • 1. Re: Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option
          Randy Hagan Adobe Community Professional

          Hello Lo.

           

          1) Is there a reason why you're creating single-page docs, rather than grouping them in some kind of logical (chapters, product line) organization or sequential (4-8-16 page signature) setup? Grouping multi-page documents would reduce potential positions where those random signature-filling blank pages are going. It won't magically fix the problem, but it will help make the problem a lot more manageable.

           

          2) I can't think of a way to make this happen entirely from one source link forking to two separate book files and automating the appropriate output. But with the right electronic-first production workflow, I'd think you could come close. ToCs created with paragraph style markers generate bookmarks as well as they generate data markers for generating page numbers. Hyperlinks are going to be dead on the printed page, so short of styling, it's a moot point.

           

          I would work to produce the electronic document first. Incorporate paragraph styles for generating ToC entries and, if you use them, standard Index entries built through your Index panel. Ideally this is the only version of the document you use for internal review/updating, but it doesn't have to be. After the electronic PDF version is created, use the Book panel to insert blank pages as appropriate. Then update the ToC and Index to account for the inserted blanks.

           

          Since we're only changing the page number, rather than the ToC/Index text entry, adjustments should be minimal -- if any are needed at all. You want to proof to make sure. If the document is less than 64 pages, I'd guesstimate it'll only take 10-15 minutes a pass to create a proofed print version based off the electronic PDF file. Maybe.

           

          I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, but I use this workflow all the time. It gets good, quick results. Hope this helps ...

          • 2. Re: Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option
            rsukhram@tgioa.com Level 1

            Randy thanks for the reply. 

             

            1) Is there a reason why you're creating single-page docs, rather than grouping them in some kind of logical (chapters, product line) organization or sequential (4-8-16 page signature) setup? Grouping multi-page documents would reduce potential positions where those random signature-filling blank pages are going. It won't magically fix the problem, but it will help make the problem a lot more manageable.

            • Sorry i wasn't very clear.  The linked docs are not single pages.  They very from 2-8 pages.  The grouping is by model name/series.  The reason for this is due to models being discontinued.   I also use the title of each model for my TOC.

             

             

            2) I can't think of a way to make this happen entirely from one source link forking to two separate book files and automating the appropriate output. But with the right electronic-first production workflow, I'd think you could come close. ToCs created with paragraph style markers generate bookmarks as well as they generate data markers for generating page numbers. Hyperlinks are going to be dead on the printed page, so short of styling, it's a moot point.

            • Yeah I have been struggling with this one also.  I am trying to avoid having to make 2 separate source files for the same model but I may have no other option.

             

             

            I would work to produce the electronic document first. Incorporate paragraph styles for generating ToC entries and, if you use them, standard Index entries built through your Index panel. Ideally this is the only version of the document you use for internal review/updating, but it doesn't have to be. After the electronic PDF version is created, use the Book panel to insert blank pages as appropriate. Then update the ToC and Index to account for the inserted blanks.

            • The only issue is that ID seems to write those blanks back into the original source files.  We commonly go back into these model pages to update pricing as needed.

             

             

            Since we're only changing the page number, rather than the ToC/Index text entry, adjustments should be minimal -- if any are needed at all. You want to proof to make sure. If the document is less than 64 pages, I'd guesstimate it'll only take 10-15 minutes a pass to create a proofed print version based off the electronic PDF file. Maybe.

             

            I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, but I use this workflow all the time. It gets good, quick results. Hope this helps ...

            • Sorry but I am not following the workflow.  Is there a way you can outline what you have been doing?  Again I appreciate you taking time to discuss.
            • 3. Re: Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option
              Randy Hagan Adobe Community Professional

              Hi there.

               

              Sorry I didn't get back with you earlier; I headed out of town for US Memorial Day weekend.

               

              I have a couple of digital catalog products I produce with the following workflow. I'll use the largest one for an example:

               

              10 sections are produced on roughly an annual basis. Catalog pages created in InDesign. If the section will be larger than 40 pages, we either dividethe catalog pages into two sections or 40-page increments -- whichever results in smaller files. Paragraph styles are targeted to identify folio lines/categories and turn them into ToC fodder. ToC entries will be turned into PDF bookmarks when the ToC is generated. Design as normal, with the exception of releasing the folio label and tooling line on every page. Some interactivity -- color choice buttons tied to multi-state objects illustrating button choices. Originally done for styling/spacing reasons, it also serves to make it easy to apply a non-targeted paragraph style for redundant category pages. Index entry tags are applied to product descriptions, and an index for each section will be generated at the end of the production cycle with the ToC.

               

              Initial production of the catalog sections is done for the digital PDF product. We initially generated them ourselves for distribution, but the client has since started working with a third-party vendor for final production and distribution. It's also given us some additional opportunities when building interactivity into the catalog sections. We produce digital-first, building the pages and cover, assembling them and the index pages into a InDesign Book (.indb) link. Save the file(s) and save the book as "digital" file set. Then we generate the PDF bookmarks/ToC and the index for each section. Take a quick screen proof through the book/run a printed proof to ensure everything is set up right. Save the book and file(s) again. Generate the Interactive PDF with appropriate resolution for onscreen use. Pre-built PDF profiles make this a snap. Save the file(s) and save the book.

               

              Now we Save As the catalog pages as the "print file(s)." We add the blank pages as needed to build page signatures -- we used to print 4-up, but digital color presses and online finishing is so cheap that we now run pages straight up -- vendors prefer to let the output devices build printer spreads on the fly. We have three positions where we can add blanks if they're needed -- after the ToC, as well as before and/or after the index pages. Running digital, we only need to sometimes place one sheet in one of those three positions.

               

              Repaginate through the Book panel, then re-generate the ToC and index if the blank page(s) affect page numbering in the document. Take a quick screen proof through the book/run a printed proof to ensure everything is set up right. Save the book and file(s) again. Generate the Print PDF with appropriate resolution for Print reproduction. Again, pre-built PDF profiles make this easy. Save the file(s) and save the book. Ship the PDFs and prepare for the next production cycle.

               

              While you do end up with two sets of source files, not one, with the right preparation the process goes quickly. It takes a lot longer to document the process in this forum than it takes to do the deeds. For me, it's less than 15 minutes for a richly-illustrated 140-page catalog section. It's a quick, mechanical process that ensures the right files go to the right places.

               

              If this answers your questions, please mark this as answered so other folks searching for this solution can find it more easily.

               

              Hope this helps,

               

              Randy

              • 4. Re: Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I recently learned that ID can insert blank pages into a book if I want my linked pages to start on the left (like if they are an uneven number of pages).

                 

                Sorry if I'm missing something, but if you handle the book pagination right you shouldn't need blank pages, the book documents automatically shuffle left or right depending on the last page of the previous document.

                 

                So, if I start the book with a 5 page document, with the Book Page Numbering Options set like this:

                 

                Screen Shot 2015-05-30 at 1.08.32 PM.png

                 

                The next doc added automatically shuffles the first page to the left. If the page numbering is wrong you may need to open Document Numbering Options, but it should be automatic :

                 

                Screen Shot 2015-05-30 at 1.09.36 PM.png

                 

                Screen Shot 2015-05-30 at 1.10.40 PM.png

                 

                Screen Shot 2015-05-30 at 1.11.20 PM.png

                 

                The exported book:

                Screen Shot 2015-05-30 at 1.13.00 PM.png

                • 5. Re: Book - Removing Pages Added Under The Page Numbering Option
                  Randy Hagan Adobe Community Professional

                  Hi Rob.

                   

                  You're right, in that the book function can essentially balance pages automatically for a one-up book. If you can live with the consequences of InDesign throwing blank pages in wherever it wants to, rather than where you want to, The book function can shuffle that for you automatically, if that's your only consideration.

                   

                  But I think that you're not considering that there might be a number of reasons why (and where) those pages might be added for a given book. For example, the catalog sections I build are laid out landscape for display purposes. The client's rule is that the first page of the catalog product pages always starts on the top (left) page of a two-page spread.

                   

                  If I already had an even number of pages, but the product pages start on the bottom (right) side of the spread, I had to add one page before the product pages so they'd start correctly for the client, and one more blank page somewhere to again have an even set of pages for digital printing purposes. and the need to update my Table of Contents and index for the entire publication. When we were running two-up (11"x17" printer forms, with 81/2" x 11" impressions in four positions -- side by side, front and back -- saddle-stitched and drilled for catalog racks) going one page over a multiple of four meant I had to fill out three positions to even out my forms. As the original poster said when he expressed his issues, adding a page through this process is persistent, if not permanent -- and a real pain when editing/review/coordination changes the real page count during (doubtlessly) each generation of the coordination and review process.

                   

                  This causes three problems. One is that blank pages inserted automatically may work well for one version of the book, but may be entirely wrong for the next generation of the publication. Plus, randomly adding/removing blank pages in the middle of the pub wreaks havoc on both the index and ToC, since those pages are generated from how the book is laid out at the moment they're created/updated, and don't dynamically update as page counts/positions are shuffled. And when the OP expressed his his/her issues, he wanted to make these files work for both digital and print publishing workflows. In digital publishing you almost never want blank pages in a book, because there's nothing more jarring for onscreen readers than to turn the page of something they're viewing and see absolutely nothing.

                   

                  Which is where using the workflow I suggested works as well as can be expected. Working digital-first, without any blank pages, maintains simplicity and continuity. Manually inserting blank pages gives you more flexibility over where they're placed, and by extension, how much -- if any -- of the book pagination is impacted when the print version is assembled. And the tight integration based off producing digital-first, then print versions of each generation of the product ensures minimal impact on the print product for each generation of the process.

                   

                  This may not be the most elegant solution, but I think it is as elegant a solution as can be had here.

                   

                  Hope the weekend's treating you well,

                   

                  Randy