14 Replies Latest reply on May 26, 2015 7:44 AM by rob day

    How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?

    andrewb25603605

      I have a book of 260ish pages, imported chapter-by-chapter from Word into an ID book.  16 chapters.

       

      I am expecting to have to tune the master page and frame sizes when I get feedback from the publisher, so I need to modify this information in only one place.

       

      The master sync page facility is meant to do this, but what really happens when I sync is that the doc pages detach from the masters.  Hence, subsequent updates to the master pages are not reflected throughout the document.

       

      Note that there are three master pages - a title and left and right page.  The left+right spread has 3 frames - header, main and footer.  This gives 7 frames to resize in all, multiplied by 16 chapters.

       

      The only solution that I have found to this is to put the whole book in one file (which introduces lots of other limitations).

       

      Other solution tried:

      * creating a hierarchy of master pages where the root controls the page and frame size.  This is synced with a "blank page" file that controls the root.  The theory/hope behind this is that, since the masters that control the frame sizes in the main doc are not controlled by the master being sync'd (ie. the root), then they will not be detached from their masters.  Nice theory, but it doesn't work.

       

      I have found other mentions of this master-sync problem on forums, but no solution. 

       

      It is difficult to believe that there is no way to sync master pages in a book! (and if they detach from their dependent pages, this doesn't count).  There is lots of Adobe doc on overrides and detach, but I found it to be obscure and/or optimistic.

       

      Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

        • 1. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          I won't guarantee this will work, but I would enable Layout Adjustment before making the changes. I'd also get rid of any master text frames that you are overriding when you place text -- you don't need them and they're getting in your way. IF the margins snap to the text blocks, and layout adjustment is enabled, they should resize to match the new margins. That leaves only the stuff like headers, which shouldn't be overridden, to fix on the master.

          • 2. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
            andrewb25603605 Level 1

            Peter,

             

            Thanks for your suggestion.  I don't think that it will work in my case, however: I don't want the frames to snap to the margins.  I need space for icons to go between the margins and the text frames.

             

            The fundamental problem, I believe, is that ID reapplies the masters to the doc pages after the sync.  Doing this causes the doc pages to detach from the masters, and frames that formerly followed their masters keep the shape and placement that they had with the pre-sync master.

             

            If the masters in each chapter are changed by hand, then the dependent doc pages follow them ok.  No amount of playing with override options and master hierarchy seems to make any difference to the post-sync situation though.

             

            Layout Adjustment and Liquid Layout don't seem to have been designed to address this need.

             

            Regards,

             

            Andy

            • 3. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              If you don't want to try my method, that's fine, but I don't think there is any other method that stands a chance. I would still adjust the margins, and add a page gude to define waht you are using as the outer margin now. Make sure your icons snap to the new outer margin and the page guide so they will also, hopefully adjust with Layout Adjustment.

              • 4. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                andrewb25603605 Level 1

                I was intending to attach the icons to the frames that I resize (they have to align to the text in any case).  Knowing their size, I can guarantee that they stay inside the margin.

                 

                I see that Layout Adjustment is deprecated in favour of Liquid Layout, and it has been made hard to find in the menus.  Neither feature seems to guarantee what I need, which is to define the masters in one place only.  Learning InDesign is already killing my schedule - I just can't afford to spend more time on features with such unpredictable and complicated behaviour.

                 

                How is it possible that a tool like this be unable to centralise master page changes in a book?

                 

                Thanks for your suggestions and attempts to help.

                • 6. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  The master sync page facility is meant to do this, but what really happens when I sync is that the doc pages detach from the masters.  Hence, subsequent updates to the master pages are not reflected throughout the document.

                  I'm not seeing your problem. Are you making the changes from the source document and not one of the other book documents before you sync?

                   

                  Just to clarify, masterpage items can be overridden or detached—the terms have different meanings. An overridden master page item always has a relationship to its master, but only the attributes that haven't been change on the page can be changed from the master. So if you override an mp item on the page and move it, then it will no longer respond to a move from the master page. Detaching an master page item turns it into a page item with no relation to the master Pages>Master Pages>Detach Selection from Master.

                   

                  If an item is overridden but not detached, you will be able to select it and choose Pages>Master Pages>Remove Selected Overrides.

                  • 7. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                    andrewb25603605 Level 1

                    Rob,

                     

                    Thanks for this info.  I tried to see if local overrides were the problem.  I think that the option you are referring to is Pages>Master Pages>Remove All Local Overrides, but it stays greyed out when I select the objects in question (whether in the master pages or in the doc itself).  I guess this means that there are no local overrides.

                     

                    In any case, the frames in question do seem to be detached from the master.  I can see the master in the background, with its outline of light dotted lines.

                     

                    I make the changes to the master pages in one of the chapters of the book.  In that chapter, the pages of the document inherit the changes in the master as I would expect.  However, when I sync the master from this chapter with the others, the pages of the other chapters get detached from their masters.  In other words, I use the same approach as when changing a Paragraph Style - change and check in one doc, then sync to all the rest.

                     

                    Is that clearer?

                    • 8. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      I make the changes to the master pages in one of the chapters of the book.

                      I'm not seeing any detachments as a result of a sync. You have to designate one of the books as the sync master, and then the changes have to made to its master before the sync. Also the masters have to be named the same. So here you can see my Chap 1 is the sync master from the icon in the Book panel and I have to make the master edits in that document in order to sync the edits. I rearranged the master items then ran a sync and the pages in Chap 2 are updated

                       

                      Screen Shot 2015-05-25 at 2.03.50 PM.png

                       

                      Screen Shot 2015-05-25 at 2.04.18 PM.png

                       

                      If you select a single overridden item you should see Remove Selected Local Overrides:

                       

                      sel.png

                      • 9. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                        andrewb25603605 Level 1

                        Rob - this is very helpful - thanks.

                         

                        "You have to designate one of the books as the sync master, and then the changes have to made to its master before the sync. Also the masters have to be named the same." ... yes, that is what I believe I am doing.  I tried it on a small test case also.  I will see if I can find it again, then compare with your results.

                        • 10. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                          andrewb25603605 Level 1

                          I think that I see why this is happening. 

                           

                          I ran a similar test to yours but with empty text boxes in the master pages.  I select the boxes with Shift-Cmnd-Click (Mac) in the doc pages and fill them with text, without detaching them from the master.

                           

                          I can mess around with them in the master pages and see the master changes reflected in the doc pages.

                           

                          When I sync the master pages in the book, using chap2 as the reference, I see the ghosts of the chap2 text boxes behind the filled (and unchanged) text boxes in chap1.  In other words, I can reproduce the issue that I described.

                           

                          The problem, I think, is that although the master pages have the same name, the tool cannot associate the text boxes.  In the earlier test, I was assuming that it would be able to work out that the one and only text box that had changed should be synced.  However, when you do the test with two changed text boxes, it is clear that the tool is going to have trouble knowing what is going on.

                           

                          How does it work in your example.  How does the tool know that the pink box turned black and the blue box turned red (and not that the pink one turned red and the blue one black?)

                          • 11. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            What you are seeing is normal behavior for any time you reapply a master page to a page that has frames that have been overridden.

                            • 12. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                              andrewb25603605 Level 1

                              Peter,

                               

                              Yes, I realise this now.  I saw a comment on another forum (discussing the same problem, with no solution found) which said that the final step of the master sync operation was to reapply the modified master pages :-(

                               

                              The fundamental problem is that ID lacks master pages for books.  We need a central reference for the common elements of a book, but instead this is distributed throughout the constituent docs.

                               

                              The book concept seems to have been kludged onto the editor of individual documents, so we end up with awkward operations like syncing master pages ... and this is one of the side effects.

                               

                              The workaround that I see is to put the whole book into one document.  It's a shame, as it reduces ID to the level of Word, Pages and other word processing programs.  The latter are much easier better suited to my task.  My only reason for sticking with ID at the moment is its ability to produce certain PDF standards.

                               

                              Perhaps Framemaker does a better job?

                               

                              Thanks again for your help.

                              • 13. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                The fundamental problem is that ID lacks master pages for books.  We need a central reference for the common elements of a book, but instead this is distributed throughout the constituent docs.

                                 

                                Sync’ing only goes in one direction, from the designated source document to the other book documents.

                                 

                                If you want to sync masters in a book, the masters have to be built from the book’s Style Source document, or the documents have to be made from the same template containing the masters, so it takes some planning.

                                 

                                Here I've added a new document (Chap 3) to my example and put some objects on its blank master. Those object's are not on my sync'ing source document, which is Chap 1. If I override a text frame, edit (gray Hello), and then run a sync, the sync’ing deletes the objects I added to Chap 3’s master because they are not in the source. The overriden frame is left behind as a page item because it was edited and its master was removed during the sync.

                                 

                                The Chap 3 blue and green frames are not on the Chap 1 source master pages

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 7.15.57 AM.png

                                 

                                And get deleted on the next sync. The overridden text frame on page 4 gets left behind as a page item because it no longer has a master:

                                Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 7.16.36 AM.png

                                 

                                 

                                Now If I edit the the A-master from the Chap 1 source document and sync Chap 3 responds to the change.

                                 

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 7.30.33 AM.png

                                 

                                If I override the text frame on one of the Chap 3 pages, add some text, change its color, but I don't change its x,y position, the overridden frame will now respond to a change in position from the Chap 1 source:

                                 

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 7.31.25 AM.png

                                • 14. Re: How do you sync master pages (for frame size changes) without having doc pages detach from the master?
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  How does it work in your example.  How does the tool know that the pink box turned black and the blue box turned red (and not that the pink one turned red and the blue one black?)

                                  I missed your #10 post.

                                   

                                  The sync always updates from the Style Source document. Once you've overridden and added content, you can't choose a different book document to be the Style Source without running into master problems. You also can't edit the master pages of the non-source documents because those edits will be lost on the next sync—if you need to edit the masters, it has to be to the source doc followed by a sync.

                                   

                                  If you add a new document to the book, you have to sync before overriding master page items and adding content. The initial sync connects the new document's master pages to the Style Source document's master pages.