31 Replies Latest reply on May 28, 2015 1:41 PM by rob day

    Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?

    4ndroid

      Hi, I'm new to InDesign, but I've been working on an ad for my employer. (Any feedback is welcomed!)

       

      I'm wondering why the text in the logo, which is from .psd, shows up somewhat cutoff, and white. It looks solid and black at the top and bottom of characters within indesign.

       

      I'll upload the exported .pdf I'm referencing, as well as the .indd file.

       

      Thanks for any help/suggestions! Glad to be into Adobe CC finally.

       

      Adobe Creative Cloud

       

      Adobe Creative Cloud

        • 1. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant
          1. You should NEVER create the text in Photoshop, make it in InDesign.
          2. You should always design with a distance to the cropping frame!
          3. You will need to add a bleed for printing.
          4. You should not use the logo as PNG, never use PNG for print, use AI instead.
          5. The huge black letters should not be CMYK-Black with 300%, it should be only K
          6. Use Paragraph and Character Styles, no text without style!
          7. Use Object Styles for every frame and image.
          8. But the text shows up as in InDesign
          • 2. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
            4ndroid Level 1

            Thanks for these comments Willi, I am very new. My issue is that I did not create the logo, and I am using it from a branding package that was given to me, and my only choice of file was .psd.

             

            Could you please provide some more details on #3, #6, and #7? I would appreciate it.

             

            Thanks again for the quick help.

            • 3. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

              When you design a page up to the edge you have to extend everything some mm outside the page. You have to set up your document with a bleed, new document or File > Document setup, click on more options.

              With paragraph styles you define the design and technical features of text paragraphs, character styles for single words.

              With object styles you define frames for text, color or images.

               

              You have to ask for useful file types:

              1. Graphics like logos should be AI or PDF in CMYK
              2. Images as PSD files
              3. Text make in InDesign
              • 4. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                go-enki Level 1

                First, you did well to enrich your black and not put it pure black 100%. NEVER use a 100% black only on a colored background, it will not print well if there is an overprint applied by the printer (which is often a default setup). It might look semi-transparent in fact and let what's behind it go through. Use only 100% black-only for small texts or text that has no background behind.

                 

                Bleed is the portion of the image that will be trimmed if you do a print project; when printers cut the sheets, they are not always 100% well aligned and same goes for the printing. So you want to add that "bleed" to make sure they have some margin for mistake and also to avoid seeing a white border around your prints! If your design is for an ad in a magazine or for web, you don't need to worry about this.

                 

                =======

                 

                Regarding your first question:

                 

                The white line you see around the letters seems to come from TRAPPING. By default, there is no trapping in Photoshop and what you see it what's called the "anti-aliase". The trapping is the blending of the color edges in printing. Usually you do not have to worry about this, the printers do this work for you. But Photoshop doesn't render well the montages that have very high contrast and you might see these white pixels appear.

                 

                You can maybe fix this by opening your Photoshop file, and go in the menu "image" and then select "trap". depending on the size of your file, usually 1pixel or 2 of trapping will do a nice result and blend the background and the foreground color together.

                 

                Unfortunately, this will also flatten your layers, so only do this on your final file.

                • 5. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                  4ndroid Level 1

                  Thank you very much for this! I have converted to (0,0,0,100) black in the text in Photoshop, because I must keep it in PS sadly, due to the fact that I didn't design the logo, and I must use what's given. I will try this trapping suggestion!

                  • 6. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                    Sorry, your answers are wrong!

                    Text should NOT be enriched, only large areas. But not to 300% which can cause problems on print. Way to high.

                    Black is always set to overprint in InDesign, but only the default black from InDesign. All others and self made back mixtures are not.

                    Trapping you can't screen on PDFs exported from INDesign. And text should never be done in Photoshop. If text is done on exceptions, you should not place a PSD but a PDF saved from InDesign.

                    And a Photoshop file with transparency should NEVER be flattened.

                    • 7. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                      go-enki Level 1

                      He mentioned that he has to deal with the files he was provided, so let's help him with that.

                      Yes texts should be in vector, and 300% is huge but still safer than your 100% black for offset printing. I have worked on offset presses and in the prepress departments for over 10 years... I can guarantee it's safer to use a rich black on a rich background color than a pure black. You can argue all you want, I've been working long enough on offset and prepress WITH the presses to know how it renders.

                       

                      A Photoshop should be converted into EPS and then imported into InDesign. In CMYK. And of course always flatenned! Use Postscript files as much as you can since the "rip" machine at any printer place uses that format.

                       

                      Trapping is for printers, especially offset ones. As I explained though, you better do it manually in Photoshop as printers do not trap pixel files unless they have postscript vector on top...

                       

                      The logo is he using is very poor quality, but the trapping in Photoshop will blend the black and yellow together a bit more.

                      • 8. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                        4ndroid Level 1

                        Yes, it seems as though you can't maintain transparency through flattening files.

                         

                        Sadly, I am not allowed to use text in inDesign, I must use what is part of the logo in .psd.

                         

                        I have also changed the black colors to (0,0,0,100) in CMYK. Is this proper?

                        • 9. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                          4ndroid Level 1

                          go-enki Thanks for understanding my problem

                           

                          go-enki wrote:

                           

                          He mentioned that he has to deal with the files he was provided, so let's help him with that.

                           

                          • 10. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                            go-enki Level 1

                            You could convert your logo in bitmap, and save it in TIFF 1bit... It will keep it's transparency. It will be in black but usually you can color tiff file in publishing software.

                             

                            If it's possible, you should try to do bitmap files at 600dpi and more so they look sharp.

                             

                            Frankly, if it was my project, I would simply redraw the logo in Illustrator if you have access to the fonts. You could fix the Kerning at the same time.

                             

                            If this was my project, I would use a black that look like this: 0cyan-100yellow-0magenta-100black.  This way it will act as overprint and look rich. You should at least add 20% yellow in our black since the background is heavy in yellow! Otherwise when it will be printed, if you only use black, you might see a white edge all around the logo (no trapping).

                            • 11. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                              4ndroid schrieb:

                               

                              go-enki Thanks for understanding my problem

                               

                              go-enki wrote:

                               

                              He mentioned that he has to deal with the files he was provided, so let's help him with that.

                               

                              It is nonsense to make text in PSD.

                              • 12. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                4ndroid schrieb:

                                 

                                Yes, it seems as though you can't maintain transparency through flattening files.

                                 

                                Sadly, I am not allowed to use text in inDesign, I must use what is part of the logo in .psd.

                                 

                                I have also changed the black colors to (0,0,0,100) in CMYK. Is this proper?

                                If you need to use this file, use it as Photoshop PDF, not as PSD, because PSD will rasterize on image resolution, PDF on the higher device resolution. But educate your people to use appropriate  file types.

                                • 13. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                  go-enki schrieb:

                                   

                                  You could convert your logo in bitmap, and save it in TIFF 1bit... It will keep it's transparency. It will be in black but usually you can color tiff file in publishing software.

                                   

                                  If it's possible, you should try to do bitmap files at 600dpi and more so they look sharp.

                                   

                                  Frankly, if it was my project, I would simply redraw the logo in Illustrator if you have access to the fonts. You could fix the Kerning at the same time.

                                   

                                  If this was my project, I would use a black that look like this: 0cyan-100yellow-0magenta-100black.  This way it will act as overprint and look rich. You should at least add 20% yellow in our black since the background is heavy in yellow! Otherwise when it will be printed, if you only use black, you might see a white edge all around the logo (no trapping).

                                  What terrible recommendations do you have? If it is possible to keep vectors you should use vectors and not use a raster image like a 1 bit file. Save as PDF as it will keep vectors and text alive with better quality.

                                  And if someone needs to use pixels, use PSDs, but here in this case PDF is better.

                                  • 14. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                    John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    go-enki wrote:

                                     

                                    I have worked on offset presses and in the prepress departments for over 10 years...

                                    Well, during those 10 years, a lot has changed.

                                    A Photoshop should be converted into EPS and then imported into InDesign. In CMYK. And of course always flatenned!

                                    Currently, in an all-Adobe workflow, there is never a valid reason to use the EPS format, or to flatten transparency, or to destructively convert to CMYK prior to output.

                                    • 15. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                      go-enki Level 1

                                      Willi, you seem to be a bit nervous about this topic.
                                      There is nothing terrible in the last post.
                                      A bitmap at 600dpi @100% will print as well as a vector.
                                      His logo is not a vector.
                                      His first question was how to fix the white lines around the logo. He needs to at least flatten this with the background, trap it and then maybe add his text on top of this (yes ideally in vector).
                                      I don't import PSD in anything, that's an editable format, not a final one.
                                      I think you should open a new discussion for your issues.

                                      • 16. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                        go-enki Level 1

                                        What's next, RGB for printing?

                                         

                                        Phew!

                                        • 17. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                          If it is a Photoshop file with transparency, the text is probably text, so it is vector.

                                          The unique way to keep vectors alive and transparency is to save as PDF or PDF.

                                          Not EPS. EPS does not support transparency, and is an archaic format which should be avoided. As EPS is postscript and postscript should not be used since InDesign CS.

                                          TIFF or PSD will rasterize and is will cause less quality and higher file sizes.

                                           

                                          There is nothing against using PSD, only if fonts and vectors are used. Why should someone use something else than PSD if he is using Photoshop?

                                          Why should someone use EPS if he is using Illustrator, here is PDF/X-4 and AI the way to go. Anything else would be nonsense.

                                          I you mix images and text/vector, PDF is the way to go in one of its flairs: PDF, PDP or AI.

                                           

                                          If the TE has a layered PSD file for his logo, he could try to open it in Illustrator ans save it as PDF/X-4 or as AI and place this one. But DON'T use EPS!!!!!!!!

                                           

                                          If you have to set up images with text, use Illustrator, AI file in CMYK, but link PSD files in RGB to ensure best quality.

                                          • 18. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                            go-enki schrieb:

                                             


                                            His first question was how to fix the white lines around the logo. He needs to at least flatten this with the background, trap it and then maybe add his text on top of this (yes ideally in vector).

                                            This can be avoided with overprinting. But this is not possible with Photoshop, only with Illustrator, at least the easy way.

                                            In Photoshop you could max K+Background color for the font.

                                            • 19. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                              John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              go-enki wrote:

                                               

                                              What's next, RGB for printing?

                                               

                                              Phew!

                                              It's not next. It's now.

                                              • 20. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                4ndroid schrieb:

                                                 

                                                go-enki Thanks for understanding my problem

                                                 

                                                go-enki wrote:

                                                 

                                                He mentioned that he has to deal with the files he was provided, so let's help him with that.

                                                 

                                                as your text is so simple, you could remake it in some minutes in Illustrator. Why do you need to stick on Photoshop here, when other file types will cause better quality with less problems?

                                                • 21. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                  go-enki schrieb:

                                                   

                                                  What's next, RGB for printing?

                                                   

                                                  Phew!

                                                  Yes, use RG images in InDesign and never convert them before PDF export to CMYK. With PDF/X-3 or PDF/X-4 you can even export them  and keep this color space up to print. X-3 is more than 10 Years old, X-4 is from 2008.

                                                  • 22. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    Sadly, I am not allowed to use text in inDesign, I must use what is part of the logo in .psd.

                                                     

                                                    If the job will be printed on an offset press there are problems with the folk festival image and text that will be difficult to overcome.

                                                     

                                                    The effective resolution of 155ppi is much too low for the black text and illustration.The text was set without any anti-aliasing which exacerbates the low res pixels.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    The logo .PSD file's color mode is RGB so you can't control the CMYK build of the black text. When you convert black RGB to CMYK, either in Photoshop or at output, the mix will be determined by the CMYK profile used. The default US SWOP Coated converts to 300% total ink but that would change depending on the profile—you wouldn't get 100% black with most press profiles.

                                                     

                                                    sel.png

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    You have not included a bleed. The bleed mark is the red line outside of the trim, so you have to extend the yellow background to the bleed. Also your bleed amount set in document setup is 1mm which isn't enough–the standard is .125 inch.

                                                    • 23. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                      4ndroid Level 1

                                                      Alright - I understand the issues with the logo, but that is out of my control. I may have to just try and convince them to allow me to redo them, as I understand the complications now.

                                                       

                                                      Also, i have added a proper bleed and extended the yellow - I hope I have done it properly.

                                                      • 24. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                        You have also to decrease the logo, so it will have a distance to the edge. The bleed is important to avoid obvious failures in cutting, but when the same amount goes the other way round, it will cut away part of the logo.

                                                        Personally I think that the font of the logo could be improved, e.g. I would correct the kerning between V and A in Festival, the distance is way to big.

                                                        • 25. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                          He mentioned that he has to deal with the files he was provided, so let's help him with that.

                                                           

                                                          The resolution problem can't be overcome. It's going to be obvious in the line art like image as well as the text—but maybe no one will care?. The CMYK black mix or trapping will be minor issues in comparison.

                                                          • 26. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                            Another problem I see with the Yellow. It is done in RGB, the CMYK mix depends on the color management settings

                                                            • 27. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                              John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              4ndroid wrote:

                                                              I may have to just try and convince them to allow me to redo them...

                                                              Yes, resetting that text would be a huge opportunity to right several wrongs.

                                                              • 28. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                If you can match the font it would probably be better to either crop the image in ID and set the type there, or rebuild it in Illustrator and save as .ai or PDF, again using only the harbor illustration from the Photoshop file. You might want to ask festival folks, though, if they have a vector version of this logo already. They probably have no idea what they were given and when each for format should be used.

                                                                • 29. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  If you can match the font it would probably be better to either crop the image in ID

                                                                  The image also has text (the music notes). The low res will show there as well.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                    But they will be far less objectionable as low res rasters than the other type will be.

                                                                     

                                                                    Obviously getting a better version would be the first choice, but recreating the festival type would be my second choice.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Part of my Black Text Looks White - Why?
                                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      What's next, RGB for printing?

                                                                       

                                                                      Not RGB printing, but the Abobe print apps have all used the same color management for awhile, so the same conversion to CMYK can happen anywhere in the workflow—in Photoshop, during export to PDF, or at output.

                                                                       

                                                                      If you care about controlling exact CMYK output numbers for a single printing then you do it early, if you care more about maintaining similar color appearance when the job will print multiple times under different press conditions or to different devices then you do it late.