25 Replies Latest reply on Jun 5, 2015 12:44 PM by Eleivana07

    Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf

    Eleivana07 Level 1

      Hello Everyone,

      I am using ID CS 6, Distiller X and Adobe Pro X on a Win 7 pc

       

      Just coming to end of my book project and followed the specs sent by the POD publisher (Outskirts Press) on margins, bleed etc.

      Yes (cough) they insist on sending the ID file through Distiller as Lightening Source will be doing the actual printing and this is their workflow demands.

      They returned the file to me as they could not find the bleeds. I am a little confused as I thought the bleed was kind of a a nonphysical allowance that was sent with the print ready pdf to tell them where they could safely cut images that bleed off the edge of a doc without leaving a white space.

      My book is 6X9"

      Here is the screenshot of the ID Doc Set Up

      Book Pages setup.JPG

      Here is the screenshot of my spreads in ID SHOWING the bleed. The first pink line.The outer one is from the screenshot.

       

      Page Bleed in ID.JPG

       

      Here is a screenshot of the Print to postscript setting

      Distiller Bleed Settings.JPG

       

       

      I did notice in the instructions of this company that for INTERIOR COLOR BOOKS they state:

      "Change the document’s paper size to include bleed of .125” W and .25” H"

       

      Does this mean the pdf? or the ID file? and HOW?

      Is there something wrong with my settings for the PDF/x-1a:2001 that I used per their instructions?

      AND MOST IMPORTANTLY IS THE DISTILLER GENERATED PDF SUPPOSED TO SHOW THE BLEEDS?

      Currently my pdf does NOT show bleeds even though I have those in the settings.

      Maybe I am confused about what the bleeds are?

       

      Any help would be greatly appreciated. This community has saved my bacon more than once.

       

      Thanks in Advance

       

      Lauren

        • 1. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
          MW Design Level 4

          They do not want inside bleed. So it needs to be set at 0 (zero). Try just changing your output to PS settings and change the inside bleed to zero and see if that works. So uncheck Use Document Settings. After distilling to PDF, take a look at the page size in Acrobat. Because there are no printer marks set for the PDF (and I believe they do not want them included), go by the page size as reported in Acrobat. You should be matching their +measurements.

           

          Mike

          • 2. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
            MW Design Level 4

            BTW, I wanted to add that I do send PDFs to LS once or twice a year. In no case have I ever done the PostScript to PDF route. I have always done the PDFs straight from whichever application I am using. there have never been rejected.

             

            Mike

            • 3. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
              Eleivana07 Level 1

              Hi Mike

               

              I am not sure what you mean by "Inside Bleeds"

               

              And perhaps the distiller to pdf route is the workflow set by Outskirts Press. It wasn't anywhere IN PRINT on their website that they used LS but I read it somewhere and asked my publishing rep and she said "Yes-they use LS" so I guess I assumed it was an LS thing too.

               

              In an older forum (2011)  a similar question was asked and Peter Spier said:

              "The "correct" way to set up a document with bleed is to make the document size the trim, or finished size of the page, then if not already showing, pres the More Options button to show the Bleed and Slug fields and add a bleed allowance. This will show as an additional guide outside the page, and it is this added bleed allowance that is used when you create a PDF and "Use Document Settings" for the bleed."


              Do you know where I can find the settings for InDesign to Postscript that will produce what I want? I thought I had it but apparently not.


              I will try the method you suggested first which if I understand is to uncheck the "Use document settings" and have ZERO for all the boxes (bleed)


              Also in Outskirts guide where they stated "Change the document’s paper size to include bleed of .125” W and .25” H" really stumped me.

              They haven't gotten back to me on that one.


              Thanks

              Will get back to you


              Lauren







              • 4. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                MW Design Level 4

                Hello Lauren,

                 

                I hope the below clarifies instead of adding confusion!

                Also in Outskirts guide where they stated "Change the document’s paper size to include bleed of .125” W and .25” H" really stumped me.

                What they mean is to make the page size 6.125" wide by 9.25" tall instead of the 6" x 9" you have. But it is unnecessary to do so--in all likelihood. The results should be the same with the exception of what are called "boxes" for the various size definitions inside a PDF. You can display those in Acrobat.

                 

                I have a link to three sample ID files, along with the resulting PDFs.

                Print to Postscript Actual Page Size.indd is an ID file that is 6" x 9" like yours. It has the following document set up. Note that the inside bleed is set to 0 (zero):

                capture-003338.png

                This will give you a PDF with the same page size as setting it up as per Outskirts' guide.

                 

                Print to Postscript Bleed Added Page Size.indd is an ID file that has the bleed amount added to the document size. All the bleed settings are 0 (zero). Note the page size has the bleed amount added to the page size:

                capture-003340.png

                The resulting PDF is the exact same size as the previous PDF.

                 

                I am also including Export to PDF Actual Page Size.indd which setup as per the first example above (actual 6x9 page size with bleed except no inside bleed). Note that its PDF is also exactly the same size as the others. But with this file I used Export, exporting to a Print PDF.

                 

                All the PDFs from the files are of the same names as their respective files.

                 

                If you do setup the document to be a physical size of 6.125" x 9.25", if you want the margins to touch your existing text frames, you will need to adjust them after changing the page size.

                 

                In the LS and Blurb books I have done, I have always just done the Export to a Print PDF. Never using a PS file. But you are also at the mercy of the publisher. So if you have to change the page size, make a copy of your file so the original is untouched. And if you get stuck or wonder if it is right, just give a holler.

                 

                Dropbox - lauren.zip

                 

                Mike

                • 5. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                  Eleivana07 Level 1

                  Hi Mike

                   

                  OK -I feel dumb-of course that is an inside bleed.  A zero inside bleed--Is that because of their gutter requirements?

                   

                  To think of changing the actual page sizes-groan. This book is close to 500 pages with multiple (hundreds) of precisely placed color graphics. To change the page sizes means I will be spending days repositioning things.

                   

                  Can you think of a logical reason they would want the physical page size to include a bleed if everyone else in the world can just set the bleed settings like you have shown so that they show up in the pdf?

                   

                  I mean I think that is the problem in a nutshell.

                  My pdf is NOT showing those bleed margins for some reason.

                   

                  OK I downloaded your files and looked at the "print to postscript actual size" file. I went to the print settings and this jumped out at me!

                   

                  InDesign Print to Postscript Settings.JPG

                   

                  Under the paper size,the WIDTH and HEIGHT have the measurements with the BLEED included! Perhaps that's what Outskirts meant when they stated in their instructions:"Change the document’s paper size to include bleed of .125” W and .25” H" !!

                  because in my print to postscript settings I don't have that.I just have the 6" X 9" instead.

                   

                  OK I'm excited now (Doesn't take much these days.Just turned 60 )

                   

                  I am going to change that setting and generate another pdf and see if that fixes things

                   

                  Lauren

                  • 6. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    I think the problem here is that you simply haven't included trim marks on the PDF to indicate the edge of the page and show the bleed extending beyond it.

                    • 7. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                      As you choose to make the PDF via print and postscript and distiller you gave yourself the chance to maker more errors as this chance is missing to someone who is making their PDFs via export.

                      • 8. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                        MW Design Level 4
                        Doesn't take much these days.Just turned 60...

                        I don't think any of us in this thread are spring chickens...

                         

                        Do check the size of your PDF in Acrobat. I have the page size always turned on, but if yours isn't, just move your mouse pointer down to the lower left and it'll display. Do note that Acrobat rounds digits so a page of 6.125" will show as 6.13" but the real size would be 6.125".

                         

                        Mike

                        • 9. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                          Eleivana07 Level 1

                          Unfortunately a distiller to pdf is the strict requirement of the company I am dealing with.

                          • 10. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                            Eleivana07 Level 1

                            Hi Peter

                            Well originally I didn't include any printers marks as that was the instructions they gave for the print ready PDF that they wanted. But I did generate a PDF afterwards with the marks and there were NO bleeds at all in the pdf. I changed the page size in the print to postscript settings and I am getting close as at least now there are bleeds in the pdf but they aren't matching on the pages so something else is off. Working on that.

                             

                            Lauren

                            • 11. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                              Eleivana07 Level 1

                              Hi Mike

                               

                              Well this is what I came up with. I don't know if it's entirely correct but it looks good.

                              Outskirts press wanted 0.125" bleeds and an inner gutter of 0.125" also.

                              I kept the bleeds on all 4 sides of the page and gave it a 0.125" gutter.

                              I changed the page size in my postscript print settings to 6.25" width and 9.25" height. In their instructions they only accounted for a bleed on one side (they would have made the width 6.125" but elsewhere in their instructions wanted a bleed all the way around plus the gutter ) but when I did that the bleeds were offset on the right page throughout the book. Looked really sloppy.

                              My margins are 0.7 for the outside and inside and 0.65 Top and Bottom.

                               

                              So here is a screenshot of the final pdf

                               

                              Oil Book Correct Bleeds.JPG

                               

                               

                              Is there a way to see gutter margins in the pdf? I looked in the Print Production area but couldn't find it.

                              I am not really sure how the gutter margins figure into this. I know what they are for but it seems that the inner bleed PLUS the gutter would have made a larger white area on the bind side of the book?

                               

                              What do you think?

                               

                              Lauren

                              • 12. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                MW Design Level 4

                                Hi Lauren,

                                 

                                Does Outskirts have their guidelines on its web site somewhere? It seems to be a rather confusing (to me) web site. I would like to take a look at the guidelines.

                                 

                                Thanks, Mike

                                • 13. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  This sounds like a problem that has come up before with other POD printers where the word gutter and bleed seem to be interchanged.

                                   

                                  This thread concerns Ingram's request for a white or paper inside bleed, which is impossible if there are crossovers:

                                   

                                  Re: Need a blank gutter for book printing but designed images that cross the two-page spread...

                                  • 14. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                    MW Design Level 4

                                    Yes, Rob, that's what I was thinking as well. I don't know from looking at the couple page screen shot whether there are cross-overs in Lauren's file or not.

                                     

                                    Lauren, do take a look at the page size of the PDF itself and make sure the page size is appropriate. Oh, and make sure your PDF is in single-page reading order with the total page count wholly divisible by 4.

                                     

                                    Mike

                                    • 15. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                      Eleivana07 Level 1

                                      MW Design wrote:

                                       

                                      Hi Lauren,

                                       

                                      Does Outskirts have their guidelines on its web site somewhere? It seems to be a rather confusing (to me) web site. I would like to take a look at the guidelines.

                                       

                                      Thanks, Mike

                                      Hi Mike

                                       

                                      They have a "Print ready file creation guide". . If you do a search for that phrase it will pop up as a pdf.

                                      http://outskirtspress.com/search

                                       

                                      And after doing further research last night I came to realize that the term gutter means one thing to ID (The space between columns) while it means the bind side space to the rest of the world. Is this true?

                                       

                                      I am going to generate another pdf with no inside bleed and 6.125 width and compare it to the last one. Does the pdf above look correct to you?

                                       

                                      Lauren

                                      • 16. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                        Eleivana07 Level 1

                                        MW Design wrote:

                                         

                                        Yes, Rob, that's what I was thinking as well. I don't know from looking at the couple page screen shot whether there are cross-overs in Lauren's file or not.

                                         

                                        Lauren, do take a look at the page size of the PDF itself and make sure the page size is appropriate. Oh, and make sure your PDF is in single-page reading order with the total page count wholly divisible by 4.

                                         

                                        Mike

                                        Hi Mike

                                         

                                        As I stated I generated another pdf through distiller with

                                        No inside bleed

                                        Width 6.125 (instead of the previous 6.25 to account for bleeds inside and outside edge)

                                        The size of the pdf is correct at 6.13" X 9.25 BUT looks at these margins! It looks like the right side page bleed is all caddy wompus.

                                        BTW I have no Images that bleed toward the Bind side of this book. Only the little green bars that bleed to the edge.

                                        This project has taken me years and I am exhausted. I can only hope to get this fixed so I can move forward and before my laptop gives up.

                                         

                                        Goofy margins.JPG

                                        Could there be another setting in the postscript print dialog box that needs tweaking?

                                        No Inside Bleed postscript settings.JPG

                                         

                                        Help!

                                         

                                        Lauren

                                        • 17. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          They have a "Print ready file creation guide". . If you do a search for that phrase it will pop up as a pdf.

                                          Their guide is the same as Ingram’s. If you look at page 14 they require no ink on the inside .125" which is a horrible spec for crossovers because it will cut away .25" of the image and then the binding itself will obscure some of the image so you might visually lose .5"+. The no ink white space should and can be handled in imposition by the printer and not in the layout.

                                           

                                          I came to realize that the term gutter means one thing to ID (The space between columns) while it means the bind side space to the rest of the world. Is this true?

                                           

                                          But it's not really a problem for you given that you have nothing crossing over. So you can include an inside bleed to get the .125" white "gutter" (no I don't think the rest of the world confuses bleed and gutter, but POD printers apparently do  Gutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

                                           

                                          So the doc should be setup as 6x9 with all bleeds at .125:

                                          Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 4.10.20 PM.png

                                          Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 4.11.21 PM.png

                                           

                                          Then export or distill with the document bleeds and the page size set to 6x9 if you are distilling, which will create a 6.25" x 9.25" PDF.

                                           

                                          Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 4.13.41 PM.png

                                          • 18. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                            Eleivana07 Level 1

                                            Hi Mike

                                             

                                            Oy vey this is getting to be a headache.

                                            I did what you said above. and the pdf I generated has NO bleeds and the pdf size is 6X9. The ONLY way I seem to generate a pdf with visible bleeds is to change the size and manually add in the measurements for the bleeds in the postscript printer dialog.

                                            here are screenshots of all my settings thus far

                                             

                                            Doc setup bleeds x 4.JPG

                                             

                                            Doc setup bleeds  4 a.JPG

                                             

                                            Doc Setup Bleeds  4 b.JPG

                                             

                                            Doc setup bleeds x 4 c.JPG

                                             

                                            Is there ANYTHING in these settings that could account for my failure?

                                             

                                            The only pdf that came close is the one way up this page:

                                            "I kept the bleeds on all 4 sides of the page and gave it a 0.125" gutter.I changed the page size in my postscript print settings to 6.25" width and 9.25" height."

                                             

                                            I noticed in one of your screenshot examples that you have a gutter measurement of .1667

                                             

                                            I can't figure out why my last pdf had the right facing pages bleed offset. Is there something in page placement (centered) or that offset measurement in the PS print dialog?

                                             

                                            This is what resulted with the print dialog size set to 6X9"-bleeds 0.125 x 4, No gutter

                                             

                                            Pdf with NO bleeds.JPG

                                             

                                            Size no Bleeds.JPG

                                             

                                            Any Ideas?

                                             

                                            Lauren

                                            • 19. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Sorry, if you are Distilling (another horrible requirement) the page size would be 6.25"x9.25", which gives you the outside bleed and an inside .125" "gutter":

                                               

                                               

                                              Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 5.18.44 PM.png

                                               

                                               

                                              Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 5.18.49 PM.png

                                               

                                              Screen Shot 2015-06-04 at 5.23.15 PM.png

                                              • 20. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                Eleivana07 Level 1

                                                I think I discovered something

                                                 

                                                In the print dialog box the question is NOT about PAGE size but PAPER size

                                                 

                                                Paper size print dialog.JPG

                                                 

                                                And according to Adobe HELP files

                                                 

                                                Adobe Instructions.JPG

                                                 

                                                So if my book is 6 X 9 and I have required bleeds of 0.125 my PAPER can't be 6 X 9. It would have to be larger to accomodate the bleeds-CORRECT?

                                                 

                                                So the instructions from OUTSKIRTS begins to make sense.

                                                Outskirts demands.JPG

                                                • 21. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  I noticed in one of your screenshot examples that you have a gutter measurement of .1667

                                                  Gutter in the InDesign Document setup is literally the space between text blocks if there's more than one column. Referring to the inside bleed as a gutter is unfortunate. The required .125" for gluing is never visible on the page, so it is effectively a bleed.

                                                   

                                                  Gutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                                  • 22. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    In the print dialog box the question is NOT about PAGE size but PAPER size

                                                    That's right, sorry I added to the confusion. When you distill the Paper Size should include the bleeds.

                                                    • 23. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                      Eleivana07 Level 1

                                                      Hi Mike-

                                                      So to recap and to pass on information to anyone that is publishing a book through some of the Print On Demand (POD) outfits and are required to generate a print ready pdf via DISTILLER-This is what I have discovered so far.

                                                      Your document set up should have the bleeds entered. Apparently InDesign interprets the "Gutter" as the space between columns and NOT the white non printing area next to the spine. So your inner bleed can take the place of your Gutter measurement in books that don't have an image that crosses over to the other page.

                                                      Take your trim size (For example 6 X 9) and add the required bleeds ( For example 0.125" X 2 for the width or 6.25" and X 2 for the height or 9.25") and enter these dimensions in your Postscript Printer Dialog Box under Paper size.

                                                      Under Marks and Bleeds Check the box that says "Use Document Bleed Settings"

                                                      I think this is accurate.

                                                      If the POD is expecting a BLEED plus a GUTTER perhaps the sum of those two could be added together or the Gutter measurement could be added to the inside MARGIN in setup?

                                                       

                                                      Does this sound correct Mike?

                                                       

                                                      Does anyone else want to weigh in on this so far?

                                                       

                                                      Thanks Mike and Rob and everyone else.

                                                       

                                                      Lauren

                                                      • 24. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Because of the no ink on the inside bleed requirement, adding inside bleeds only works if there are no cross overs or color that touches the spine, see the link in my #13.

                                                         

                                                        The guide reads like it's 1995. I'm guessing many of the out dated requirements—all CMYK, flattened transparency, Distiller, no color profiles, building bleeds into the trim--are because everything is automated and no one is looking at your job.

                                                        • 25. Re: Bleed Problems:InDesign to Distiller to pdf
                                                          Eleivana07 Level 1

                                                          Hi Rob

                                                          Just wanted to thank you for your valuable input also. Learning this stuff is so incremental.

                                                          It could have been avoided if Outskirts 'Print Ready file guide' could have been a little more clear or they had just added some explanations.

                                                          I agree that the technology seems mid 1990s.

                                                          But what's a girl to do?

                                                           

                                                          Thanks again

                                                          Lauren