18 Replies Latest reply on Jun 16, 2015 3:17 PM by trshaner

    Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?

    raphaels28255986 Level 1

      Hi,

       

      Imagine a RAW file was adjusted then converted to a tiff.

      If I were to go back to that image for further adjustments, would I be better off starting from the RAW or the tiff file? Does the tiff retain the same adjustment potential as the RAW file?

      Of course, I understand that the tiff file is already further along, in terms of adjustments, than the RAW.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Raphael

        • 1. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          That would be a decision you would have to make. If you go back to the raw image then you will have to make all of the adjustments again that were stored in the TIF file. If you make changes to the TIF then you have lost your ability to work with the raw image data. Whenever I make adjustments in Photoshop and create a TIF image, I will usually continue to work with the TIF file in Lightroom. If I go back to the raw file again then I usually plan on creating a new TIF file.

          • 2. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
            raphaels28255986 Level 1

            Thanks Jim.

             

            a) are the changes stored in the tiff listed in History so they can be duplicated starting again with the RAW file?

            b) I am not sure what "you have lost your ability to work with the raw image data." means. In real terms that is.

            • 3. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              A. Any of the adjustments that you make in Lightroom will be stored in history. But the work that was done in Photoshop prior to the TIF being saved will not be part of the history.

               

              B. I'm just saying that the TIF image isn't raw image data. But then, you aren't working with raw data in Photoshop anyway. The only time you are able to work directly with the raw image data is when you are working on the raw/DNG file in Lightroom or Camera Raw.

              • 4. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                raphaels28255986 Level 1

                So, to be clear:

                a) Work in Photoshop is not logged into LR History. OK.

                But is Photoshop History kept track of in Photoshop itself?

                 

                b) What is it to me to work with or without raw image data? This is all Greek to me. What am I gaining or losing one way or the other? Are you saying that I cannot use LR's Develop on tiff files to make "further" adjustments? can you unravel this for me please?

                 

                Thanks a lot.

                • 5. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                  JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  The only time you have history in Photoshop is during that Photoshop session. Once you save and close the image, the history is gone. There is no Photoshop history that can be viewed in Lightroom.

                   

                  If you don't understand the value of working with raw image data, then I wouldn't worry about it. Very basically, you can do more with the raw data. More shadow recovery, more highlight recovery, and other benefits from working with the raw image data. That's why you should do everything you can do to the raw image using Lightroom before you ever turn to Photoshop to finish.

                  • 6. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                    raphaels28255986 Level 1

                    Thank you Jim. My question is finally answered in your second paragraph: When it comes to pursuing image adjustments, tiffs are no match for raws. That's what I needed to know. I make very demanding prints for galleries and such and, being new to Adobe, needed to find out more about it.

                     

                    And thanks about the part about History.

                     

                    Raphael

                    • 7. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                      JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      You are certainly welcome. Please feel free to come here if you have further questions.

                      • 8. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        raphaels28255986 wrote:

                        b) I am not sure what "you have lost your ability to work with the raw image data." means. In real terms that is.

                        LR's Basic panel PV2012 Tone controls have the ability recover blown-out areas using the Highlights slider if the raw data isn't actually clipped. Once the image is converted to a TIFF or JPEG you lose the ability to fully recover those blown-out areas. LR's Detail panel also works slightly differently with raw file image data (RGBG2) and is able to reduce noise better while retaining image detail. Once the file is converted to a TIFF or JPEG any remaining noise will be more difficult to remove without affecting image sharpness.

                         

                        With that in mind–If you properly adjust the LR Basic panel Tone controls to recover all desired Highlight and Shadow details AND adjust the Detail panel to achieve the desired image sharpness and noise reduction–An 'Edit in PS' or Exported 16bit ProPhoto RGB TIFF file should work virtually as well as the original raw file. If you want to continue to work with the raw file, and retain the settings used for the TIFF file, create a Virtual Copy of the raw file. Change the 'Copy Name' to 'TIFF Export Settings' or something to associate it with the TIFF file. If you need to start over in PS for some reason you can recreate the TIFF file with LR edits using the Virtual Copy.

                        • 9. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                          raphaels28255986 Level 1

                          Thank you trshaner.

                           

                          Following Aperture's demise, I migrated my files seamlessly to Adobe Lightroom. Consequently, for each file adjusted in Aperture, I ended up with a RAW file + a tiff of the Aperture adjusted file.

                           

                          As you know, files adjusted for screen viewing are usually not adjusted enough when it comes to printing them. I select the images I want to keep, I adjust them to look their best - but then have to again adjust those that are selected by the gallery for printing and framing.

                           

                          So now, I have  hundreds of Aperture-adjusted files that I may have to print - or not, and I understand NOW that my best bet is to use the tiffs as guides, but start from scratch with the RAWs when asked to print.

                           

                          Still, I wanted to know whether I could save myself some time in LR by starting from the tiff, instead of from the RAW should a gallery ask for a print of the older images.

                           

                          Of course, new images and images not yet adjusted will have to be dealt with starting with the RAW file.

                          • 10. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            raphaels28255986 wrote:

                            As you know, files adjusted for screen viewing are usually not adjusted enough when it comes to printing them. I select the images I want to keep, I adjust them to look their best - but then have to again adjust those that are selected by the gallery for printing and framing.

                            Do you (or someone else) have the original adjusted print files that were used for creating the prints?

                            • 11. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                              raphaels28255986 Level 1

                              Well yes.

                               

                              The RAW file was copied to LR, and a tiff companion was created in the migration process which mimics the Aperture-adjusted file.

                               

                              My Aperture Library is also wholly intact as well. The problem with that is that we don't know how long it will be operative as Apple has stopped supporting it, and keeps creating new OSs which may or may not made to work with Aperture after a while.

                              • 12. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                raphaels28255986 wrote:

                                 

                                Well yes.

                                 

                                The RAW file was copied to LR, and a tiff companion was created in the migration process which mimics the Aperture-adjusted file.

                                Sorry, I'm not a Mac user so bear with me. How are the TIFF companion files created? Are they Aperture Export files created using the original raw file with the print adjustments? If not and you still have Aperture intact then that's what you need to do. From inside Aperture Export to TIFF all of the gallery print adjusted image files. There should be no need to recreate these files from inside LR, correct?

                                • 13. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                  raphaels28255986 Level 1

                                  Aperture Exporter (https://apertureexporter.com/) - developed by someone who needed to move his own files from Aperture to LR, migrated the master files, created the companion tiff files that mimicked Aperture-adjusted files (not all migrated files had been adjusted in Aperture prior to migration, as not all were top candidates for printing), plus sidecar files.

                                   

                                  This is the only software out there that does it seamlessly for entire libraries , while transferring metadata AND file/folder/project structure; meaning that files are organized exactly as they were before, keywords and rating are there, etc. It also does it rather swiftly.

                                  • 14. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    https://apertureexporter.com/

                                     

                                    Aperture adjusted images saved as TIFF or JPEG depending on image rating. Adjustments are baked-in the image.

                                     

                                    If you chose the above option then you should have TIFF copies of the selected image files with the Aperture develop adjustments applied (i.e. "baked in"). Looks good!

                                    • 15. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                      raphaels28255986 Level 1

                                      I agree, and that's exactly what I did.

                                       

                                      But my question still remains. If I am not happy with the tiff as it is, should I start from scratch with the original file, or can I save time by adjusting the tiff some more in LR?

                                       

                                      Most people advise using the tiff as a model only and work on the RAW. I'm just trying to ascertain that. It's a very simple question really.

                                      • 16. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        raphaels28255986 wrote:

                                        But my question still remains. If I am not happy with the tiff as it is, should I start from scratch with the original file, or can I save time by adjusting the tiff some more in LR?

                                        It depends on the editing required and type of TIFF files created in Aperture Explorer (8bit/color, 16bit/color, ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB). Ideally you want to use 16bit/color, ProPhoto RGB TIFFs for best results. If there are blown out highlights, blocked up shadows, noise, or unsharpness in the TIFF you are better off using the raw file in LR. For images that don't exhibit these issues you can use 8bit/color TIFFs for making slight tone or color changes, local adjustments, or spot removal and 16bit/color TIFFs for more drastic changes.

                                         

                                        Open Adobe Bridge, select one of the TIFFs, and check the 'File Properties' panel. What do you see?

                                        • 17. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                          raphaels28255986 Level 1

                                          Thank you so much. This is one of the most to-the-point, sensible, concise responses I've gotten on this site.

                                          Makes a lot of sense to me.

                                          I have Bridge by default because I have PS CC, But being new .... a) what is Bridge exactly? There's a lot of flowery language about it, but nothing straightforward and concise and, b) short of using Bridge which I haven't learned yet, can I find out about the type of tiffs I got in LR?

                                          • 18. Re: Raw vs tiff of the same, when adding further adjustments to an image in Develop?
                                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            Glad you found it helpful. The biggest issue with TIFFs is just that...the file size is much larger than raw files.

                                             

                                            raphaels28255986 wrote:

                                            I have Bridge by default because I have PS CC, But being new .... a) what is Bridge exactly?

                                            Adobe Bridge is similar to LR's Library module and can be used with Adobe Camera Raw and Photoshop to organize image files. Unlike the Library module Bridge can also view and edit metadata for virtually any type of media file. LR is limited to raw, TIFF, JPEG, PNG and certain video file formats. More info here: Bridge Help | Bridge Learn & Support

                                             

                                            raphaels28255986 wrote:

                                            can I find out about the type of tiffs I got in LR?

                                            Unfortunately no. You can view many different metadata fields in LR except Bit Depth and Color Profile. To view this information launch Bridge and go to menu Edit> Preferences> Metadata and select the items you want to see in the 'File Properties' panel:

                                             

                                            You also show these fields in the thumbnail view by going to menu Edit> Preferences> Thumbnails: