Go to our Premiere Pro BenchMark (PPBM) site and read up on computers for Premiere. If you register you can see the benchmark results for over 200 systems. Clicking on the included Speccy file you can see the detail of all the computers. One of the first items that you will find is the unless you have an expensive 10-bit monitor the best choice is not a Quadro graphics card that HP likes to push on you. If you want a custom built Adobe Premiere Pro computer call forum member Eric at ADK they do know Premiere inside and out and can provide outstanding support on their systems.
Based on my initial, preliminary research and inquiry, I'm thinking:
- Z440 with the 6-core processor offered for it (the see the link of available parts)
- minimum 16 GB RAM (how much?)
- 500 GB Samsung SSD for OS/apps
- smaller SSD for temp/swap (how big?)
- two 7200-RPM HDDs in RAID 0 striping for data
- CD drive
- Quadro K2200 graphics adapter (well, I need to revisit that in light of the post above about the monitor that's needed to do it justice; I'd like to find something that HP approves for the machine and Adobe approves for Premiere Pro CC)
For a monitor, what I already have on-hand that I can easily put on the new workstation is an HP LP2465.
(Again, the list available parts for the HP Z440 workstation is: http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/c04400038.pdf)
minimum ram would be 16gb (2x8gb), if you are working on long projects or like to have multiple adobe programs open at once, might look at 32gb.
256gb ssd should be enough for os/apps, and another for cache.
the quadro k2200 may work if not using the new lumetri color effect. if you plan on using it, the k5200 would be recommended.
if you take bills advice to use a gtx, you can look at a gtx 960. the custom options for the z440 show a 700w power supply. i would think that would have pcie power leads to add in a gtx card, you may want to ask hp though to be sure.
if money is really tight, the other option is to try a desktop grade pc, like the ENVY Phoenix 850se with an i7-5930K. which is half the price as the z440 but same speed. it may require a little extra work, to buy extra drive(s) and possibly a raid card, but if you are comfortable with that, it may save alot of money.
I have no intention of getting into advanced color effects. I don't see where Bill mentions a GTX card (maybe I'm missing something). So which is less money and which is more likely to be the right choice for my needs, do you think, please?
Harm had helped me in the past, a number of years back. Nice to see a reference site by him. He mentions 6 GB for his SATA connections, but I'm unclear on what that means and how -- or whether -- to look for it and make it a priority in the system I put together.
I notice he emphasized the need for a dedicated RAID controller card as opposed to using on-board parity. That's good to know!
As to the idea of using a desktop, it's very interesting you mention that. My main business computer, of which I also have an identical one at home, is an HP EliteDesk 800 G1, with: i7-4770 3.40GHz, 16GB RAM, 500GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD and 2TB HDD (7200 RPM), and an NVIDIA GeForce GT 630 graphics adapter with 1GB RAM (which Adobe tech support said should run Premiere Pro CC 2015 just fine in spite of it not being on the "Recommended" list; he said everything should run the same as the next one up that's on the list, just a tad slower at times -- for what it's worth, coming from whatever tech happened to answer the phone when I called there today). What do you think? Get another one for my dedicated video editing machine, add RAID0, and call it a day? Or still build a "workstation" for video editing?
Either way, you're suggesting that this EliteDesk desktop system I have as my main business computer at the office should be not so bad to use for video editing while I'm wating to get a new dedicated video editing machine, and to use at home ongoing for video editing that matter?
I do want to get a new replacement "dedicated" video editing machine to sit next to my main office computer. I've done it that way for a while. I need a dedicated machine, since, obviously, during media exports and such I can't tie up my main office computer. And since I'll be leasing it, well, I can't be frivolous but it's worth it to me to get something reasonably fast. I still have a tiny company, but I'm working at raising substantial capital and my time is very costly as I wait for the machine to do things (as it is for most people).
Thanks so much!
EDIT: Turns out the GeForce GT 630 in my EliteDesk machine(s) has 2GB RAM, but it's DDR3 and Harm's guide says to look for GDDR5. Oh, well. It's a secondary machine as far as NLE usage. I also notice he says to stay with GeForece and not get Quadro. So, for a dedicated NLE machine, maybe a GTX 780 is a good choice or, well, yeah, the GTX 980 as you suggested.
ATTN MODERATOR: I accidentally clicked Assumed Answered in my my OP! (Literally an accidental click... like those rows of fffffffff's or ddddddddd's you get on the screen when you should have gone to bed hours ago -- which I better go do right now).
Please reverse that for me!
A tier 1 workstation, HP or Dell, and a tight budget never go together. They are conflicting. A rather limited Z840 already comes out over $ 25K.
I think you have to reconsider the starting point. What are your editing needs, what codec do you edit with, what is required in terms of hardware and then - finally - where to shop for it. The premise that you want HP will be very limiting and probably unsuccessful. See Tweakers Page - What kind of PC to use?
Wow. One person says a regular desktop machine may be fine, and another is talking about a tier 1 workstation and spending over $25K. Thank goodness for the forum and being able to get enough opinions to be able to find a happy balance of what feels right.
Advantages I have with HP include incredible 24/7 tech support. At any time I can find out precisely the specs and part number of any component. They'll spend an hour helping me troubleshoot, do a BIOS update, get a suspicious part replaced overnight under warranty, etc. I have a business to run and I'm not a person who is equipped to be modding my own computers. Often my tech support needs occur evenings and weekends and they're always there. They've consistently been there for me even years after the workstation in question is no longer in warranty and the only thing they won't do is send free replacement parts when its out of warranty! I've called them 9:00 at night with a bad hard drive and the next morning the new drive was here under warranty replacement at no cost to me. Maybe this is because I have a great rapport with a senior person there, I don't know.
I'm not saying a custom build isn't a great idea and a lot more economical, but I have to weigh all my priorities. And until I learn more I'm understandably not yet convinced that a good workstation for my needs has to cost anything even remotely
Having said all of that, yes, I know, they can charge insane prices. I priced SSDs about a year ago for all my machines including new HP desktops I was ordering and the HP branded versions were three or four times the price of the best Samsung versions. Yet at least their tech support was the first to tell me there was no advantage to buying the HP branded versions and that if it was them they'd be buying the Samsung units, which I did. And they've never balked at being there for tech support when I called with non-HP SSDs in there. Yes, sometimes it's a little like pulling teeth to get them to be responsive, like when one of the new desktop machines was dying about a month after I got it and they balked at sending an identical replacement machine (to save me having to reinstall all my software), but I pressed the issue with management and it got done rather efficiently.
Anyway, it's a tough choice for me to make at this time. I will talk with Eric at ADK as was suggested and go from there.
I have no idea what codec I'm using. How do I find that out? Yes, I'll go look at the tweaker's page -- but I have to be very careful not to lose my company and my home with the time I'm spending researching all this while I'm in a critical phase of needing to produce and take care of business. (Okay, that's a bit dramatic but I'm already way behind on sleep and losing an important potential investor today because of it. I don't have a lot of room for spending a lot of time researching this. Of course, I also don't have a lot of time to wait for Premiere Pro to do exports ongoing, either ).
I hugely appreciate whatever help I can get here. I know it's tedious for you really experienced people to walk "yet another" person through this stuff. Thanks so much for bearing with me!
IS THERE NO MODERATOR ON THIS FORUM? ARE THEY USING A MACHINE? OR SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? I'm pretty sure my post 7 above was not meant to pass through. :-) Anyone know how to reach a moderator? Thanks!! -- OP
(P.S. Moderator, please delete my post 7 and this one and change the status of this thread from "Assumed Answered" to the default it was at before I accidentally changed it. Or help me get a new thread started that will help me get to the answers I need to get to.)
when bill said unless you have 10bit display, quadro is not best choice. the other choice is gtx. also, if you are not doing coloring, you dont need the 10bit output of the quadro card. quadro cards are workstation grade, while gtx are desktop grade.
sata 3 is rated 6gb speed, that is common place now.
i looked at the price for the hp elitedesk 800 g1 with an i7-4790, it was more than the ENVY Phoenix 850se with an i7-5930K. for some reason the elitedesk 800 g1 is about $600 overpriced. seems like some models are a good value, some are a rip off.
workstation vs desktop grade is a decision you have to make. workstations should be a little more reliable, but with hp's prices, cost 2x as much.
I didn't realize the ENVY Phoenix was an HP desktop. That's very interesting. The HP tech support I've gotten over the recent years has been fantastic from their workstation division, and about average from their desktop division. But I should be okay either way. I'll have to weigh things. I've told myself many times over the past five ears that I'll never want to be without at least one HP workstation so I can call their workstation tech support 24/7 if and when needed. They even help with issues with my desktop machines.
I'm sure tech support at a good company like ADK is far more knowledgeable about computers in general that most tech support people at HP, even the HP workstation division. But there are those other considerations I spelled out above, too. Feeling my way here..
I understand your dilemma, but on the other hand, how often do you need support? A properly built machine runs years without needing service.
Choosing a tier 1 machine means premium price, no overclock capability and thus requires a heftier machine than one that can be overclocked and a corresponding price.
If you could configure a non-HP machine with an i7-5960X CPU, 32 or better 64 GB DDR4-2666 and a GTX-980 Ti video card, plus some Samsung 850 Pro SSD's and overclock it to around 4.5 GHz, you would get a machine that is comparable in performance to a $ 25K HP machine for a fraction of the HP price, heck you could get two of them, one for work and one as a backup in case you need support for less than HP.
Just to feed your dilemma
Thanks. Consider my dilemma adequately fed. Today, for instance, I called HP workstation tech support to ask if it would be okay to take my friend's advice and replace the Xeon W3520 that came with my old Z400 -- which is now giving me error messages on power-on self-test -- with a used Xeon W3565. I gave them the serial number of my Z400 and they immediately had in front of them every part number and every spec of every component in the machine, and in minutes he was able to check PSU compatibility etc and inform me that it should work perfectly fine. But, yes, you're right that in general it's not often at all. It's just times like right now that I'm talking with them, when I have a machine failing and am looking at a new machine.
Well, I tried to call ADK outside of business hours but their voicemail is full and not taking messages. And the form on their site for sending an email has a big warning notice at the top saying it's not necessarily working correctly and they may not receive the email.
How was that spelled? Oh, yeah: d - i - l - e - m - m - a.
(Needless to say, that is not the kind of thing I deal with when I need HP tech support, and is an example of why I shy away from custom-built machines and am willing to put up with the limitations and high prices HP imposes on its customers. I see it as kinda like, for instance, getting a subscription to Adobe Creative Cloud Complete knowing they will make sure it works right but also knowing the big gorilla will push you around a bit... like requiring you to pay forever if you want to keep using the programs and, oh, failing to tell you that you can't even uninstall the trial and go back to your CS5 or CS6 without first manually cleaning your entire registry of all traces of Adobe. None of that is reason enough for me to even think twice about getting the best Adobe has to offer. It's just worth it.)
sounds like your decision may be based on hp's support, i would imagine their desktop support isn't anything like the way you speak of their workstation support.
the z440 does have a pcie drive option, the HP Z Turbo Drive 512GB PCIe. which i guess is a samsung m.2 drive. this would be fast enough for os/apps and cache. it then has the option to select the boot drive as pcie boot w/hdd raid. however when i select that, it no longer allows the LSI raid controller. so if you go this route, you may have to call hp and see if the motherboard can do raid 0 with 2 or 3 hdd's.
adobe's subscription model for most of us, is the DIY pc package, as adobe tech support pushes many to the forums. they do have varying service and support models, so i guess one of those would be the workstation support comparison, but would also have to pay alot more for it. now if you are talking about the actual software itself, not the support, i dont think "adobe is making sure it works right". their software releases in the last two years have been very buggy, with some patches taking over 6 months to be released, and some known bugs still not fixed in current release for some reason. so for some, saving a few bucks on the adobe subscription instead of paying for premium software, is costing people more in lost productivity.
That's interesting. The HP workstation tech I spoke to today about building a new machine suggested I look into the PCIe drive option, but since nobody here had mentioned it I didn't pay much attention to him. Now I will explore it. Thanks!
Harm's site strongly advises against on-board handling of RAID (and I've had "possible" issues over the years with HP's desktops with on-board RAID, but rarely if ever with an LSI card in an HP machine), so I will probably press for an LSI card in whatever configuration I end up with.
I guess what I meant about Adobe in comparing to HP is that even with the problems they present, most of us are probably still staying with Adobe and with their latest and greatest offerings. All in all, it tends to be the best game in town. Big gorilla has its benefits.
the pcie ssd's are a little more expensive, but very fast. i saw a video on youtube for the hp pcie turbo drive. it said something like its only 2x faster than sata ssd. im not sure if that was an old version or if thats still the same, but the new samsung m.2 ssd's are over 4x faster than the regular sata ssd's. so that might be another thing to check with hp. if you are trying to save money, and dont plan on rendering previews alot, a single 256gb ssd may be enough for os/apps/cacche. you could always add in another samsung pro later for cache if needed.
im wondering if there is some conflict between the LSI and pcie ssd for boot priority, the newer desktop version motherboards seem to have better support for pcie ssd booting. the other thing is, if its workstation grade motherboard, it should have a better motherboard chipset to handle the raid. im not sure if harm's referring to desktop grade motherboards or all motherboards. the desktop motherboards are less reliable for raid. if the hp z440 cannot support the boot pcie ssd and LSI raid, might ask hp how the onboard raid compares.
if you dont need high storage capacity for the media, instead of two hdds+raid card for $700, you could buy a samsung 850 pro 1tb for under $500. could even buy a few and spread out the media or projects manually, avoiding raid. if doing sata ssd for os/apps and another 1tb for media, could still consider the ENVY Phoenix 850se with an i7-5930K, 32gb ram, gtx 960, with just one ssd and add in a samsung pro ssd yourself. the envy phenix would cost less than half of the z440 and perform just as well, just not as "reliable".
I hugely appreciate your help.
Darned intriguing to think about a machine with only SSDs and no HDDs, yet the numbers are starting to make it look like it just might make sense. Obviously I'm leaning heavily towards a workstation over a desktop, and will probably maintain that conviction. At least since I'll be leasing it the pain of the additional cost will be mostly deferred until, well... I expect to be rich way before most of those payments come due. And the faster my video editing machine is, the faster I'll be making that a reality. So, there you go.
The HP workstation tech who was being very accommodating in helping me look at options for configurations the other night offered to conference me during the week with what he called a "technical sales consultant" who is an engineer and not in the sales dept. I think I'll take him up on that now. That sounds a lot more useful than relying on the reseller who I got my last set of machines from -- who told me what they had on sale and in inventory as a complete system (and which led to my getting two EliteDesk machines).
By the way, as a side note, in defense of Adobe's tech support, I called Premiere Pro tech support the other day and, even in the absence of my giving them any proof of being a customer (they never asked), he told me that the graphics cards I have in the EliteDesk 800 machines will work perfectly fine with PP CC 2015 even though they're not on the "recommended" list with no loss of any performance or features in PP whatsoever (except of course that it would be a tad slower than the next one up, and so on). That was a very helpful bit of information to have (and it would have been virtually impossible to gain that from the forums).
Not to open Pandora's Box here, but the HP workstation tech who suggested looking into PCIe with SSD also mentioned that some users go to external data drives over FireWire or USB3. I will have two video editing machines in the office connected over the LAN (the main workstation and perhaps my general business machine for occasional lightweight stuff) and of course I do frequent (never frequent enough) backups to external drives (over USB3) (and rotate some off-site). I don't think I want to get into this arena of external data drives per se. I just want to have ample internal storage, which, in my case, should last a lifetime with normal capacities given my moderate usage.
Does that sound about right?
Just checking to make sure I'm not overlooking something I should consider at this time.
By the way, in the end-user's defense, the Adobe PP tech the other day apparently failed to let me know just how compromised my existing video card in my desktop machines would be (not having real Kepler and only having DDR3), and he offered to inquire about what was advisable for a graphics card in a workstation for my needs and promised to call me back in an hour or two with that info, and I never got any call. So, yeah, I can see that there's not much "there" there with their tech support. Thank goodness for YOU!
I have a new X99 i7-5960X all solid state workstation. If you registered at our ppbm7.com site as I suggested earlier you can see my scores and configuration. The first one on the list does have a RAID3 SSD array but the one in the third place is without any RAID at all it is very solid at 4.5 GHz I will have plugin hard drives for my archives. I did have three GPU's but I will fall back to probably just one when I finalize the configuration because there are only marginal improvements with Premiere as you add the second and third GPU.
any external usb/firewire/network device is usually slower and has latency compared to internal storage. if you want good performance, stick with internal. a nas device is nice for backups and could also help with transfers, but you can just transfer media directly from computer to computer over the lan or your backup usb3 drive.
What you're saying about external vs internal storage devices and transferring files is pretty much what I was thinking, too. Thanks for the confirmation. It's good to know I don't have to explore that path any further at this time.
It seems my current HP Z400 workstation is working okay after multiple reboots (a one-time warning about the CPU on power-on self-test has not repeated itself). It has a Xeon W3520 and I ordered in a used W3565 to replace it that I'll install in a few days. Now to consider upgrading its graphics card as well. It currently has a GTX 470, which has 1GB memory and runs GDDR5. Maybe that's good enough for the rest of the system and I should leave it at that, and just look forward to a new workstation, which I'm still building.
The new workstation will almost definitely be an HP Z440 with a GTX 980 in it.
The GTX 980 runs on PCIe 3, but the Z400 I'm still using only supports PCIe 2. I assume that means I can't get the GTX 980 now that I plan to use in the upcoming Z440 and put it into the Z400 now and expect any remarkable speed improvements in the Z400.
Can I? If so, which model GTX 980 should I get that will be most likely be appropriate for the Z440 I have yet to build? (Note that I currently have, I believe, the superclocked version of the GTX 470. It requires more power than the Z400 supports, so I run it off an external power supply -- which of course means I can put in another card that also has high power demands, no problem.)
Assuming it's pointless to get the GTX 980 for the Z400, is there any other GTX card worth getting for the Z400 for the few months I'll still be using it? (Time spent waiting on exports costs me a lot, so it's probably worth it if it will make a substantial difference.)
the gtx 470 is a good match for the w3565 cpu. i would just leave it in there and not worry about upgrade. the gtx 980 should work in there, it would be limited to pcie 2 speeds, but should still go alot faster than the gtx 470.
Can you perhaps please help me try to vaguely quantify what "alot faster" might translate into when doing exports? That might be worth it to me. I just ordered fiber (finally) and the main bottleneck in my work flow will then become the time I wait for exporting.
while the gtx 980 itself is over 2x faster than the gtx 470, it depends on the project how much it will actually help the render/export speed.
this recent post is your real life scenario, a similar cpu with a gtx 980 ti...
FWIW... I am not doing very dramatic work. I'm doing mostly talking-head footage from a Canon XA20 camera at 1080 24p AVCHD, putting it on two tracks in a 720 24p sequence and nesting that into a new sequence for multi-camera zoom selecting (well, that will be the plan with CC 2015 -- for CS5 I'm doing that part a bit more manually in one sequence since I can't see the audio tracks in a nested sequence in CS5), adding still graphics (maybe as PS files), some titling. I use some motion for pan and zoom, of course. Adjust volume sometimes. Then agonize over the time I wait for exports and uploads (until the new fiber is installed soon, which means exports is the main issue remaining).
Well, in your opinion, would you spring for a GTX 980 for the older Z400 at this time? Any rough guess on the percent reduction in export times to hope for?
And if you would get it now, just the Ti version? Is that what would probably best suit the Z440 when I get a new machine?
you will be in a similar situation as the forum thread i posted. it may help, but only slightly, so i dont think it would be worth the money. the cpu for your z400 is already the bottleneck even with the gtx 470.
Okay! Good to know.
I apologize I missed your post before about the mailbox being full. We get email when there is a voice message with the message but not a notice when the box is full. If you would like to discuss what you are looking at feel free to call again.