15 Replies Latest reply on Jul 20, 2015 7:54 AM by A.T. Romano

    Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?

    kwixster

      I am importing my video at 1920 x 1080. The final output will be 1280 x 720. Is there any quality loss in downsizing or am I better off recording in 720p in the first place?

       

      But the bigger question is this: if I zoom in on a scene shot in 1080 by 67% (essentially making it 1280 x 720), will I have any loss of quality in the final 720p product?

       

      I really like the ability to reframe, pan and zoom in post by 67%.

       

      Thanks!

        • 1. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          kwixster

           

          Premiere Elements 12 on what computer operating system? Have you updated 12 to 12.1 using an opened project's Help Menu/Updates? If not, please do that.

           

          Now to your immediate question...

           

          If you have a 1920 x 1080p30 source and are using the project preset

          NTSC

          DSLR

          1080p

          DSLR 1080p30@29.97

           

          I believe that you will obtain the same quality 720p export that you would obtain if you had a 1280 x 720p30 source and were using the project preset

          NTSC

          AVCHD

          AVCHD LITE 720p30

           

          What are you using to apply the pan and zoom effects? Pan and Zoom Tool? Are you aware that the process of using this tool for video is different than for stills?

          ATR Premiere Elements Troubleshooting: PE12/12.1: Pan and Zoom Tool and Video File

           

          Where are you doing this 67% zoom in...scaling in the Edit area monitor or in the Pan and Zoom workspace?

           

          ATR

          • 2. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
            kwixster Level 1

            Thanks for the reply.

             

            I'm using PreE 12.1 on a Dell 8700, Win 7 64-bit with 16 GB RAM, Intel i7-4770 CPU.

             

            I'm recording live events on 3 AVCHD cameras in 1080i29.97. Sometimes I don't get the shot framed exactly the way I want so I'd like to fix it in PreE. I use fx (motion) to achieve my zoom, pan and "cropping". I figured I could "crop" by up to 67% (1080 to 720) to get the shot framed the way I want since my final product is 720p. This gives me more options in post to tweak things. But I don't want to go crazy with this if, ultimately, it ends up looking bad.

             

            Thanks again for your assistance.

            • 3. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
              teddybare Level 1

              It depends on what degradation you can suffer.

              Any zooming in will always reduce the quality of the end product because you loose many pixels and often more significantly, the aberrations in the camera lens are magnified by the same amount you zoom in.

              Using my high quality Sony camera, I recently videoed in full HD a choir I was singing it with a fixed wide shot (no cameraman) hoping to zoom in to closeups during editing on different sections of the choir depending on who sang. Even though the original was excellent, when I produced a standard res DVD, on a big screen you could see that the close ups were noticably softer than a similar scene shot with the lens zoomed in instead and not pixel reduced.

              I concluded that the camera lens was the limiting factor seeing this was the only thing I was magnifying.

              • 4. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                teddybare Level 1

                Forgot to add, I "sharpened" only the closeups clips a bit using the PE sharpen effect (29%) and it was then quite acceptable, almost as good as shooting in the lower SD resolution in the first place.

                It can be more important to make the clips look the same at the normal final viewing distance then you don't notice the variations in softening.

                 

                In fact I always pre-sharpen HD material a bit when I have to make a low res DVD from it (when it is all the same media).

                I know this sounds odd but it is because lower res professional video cameras are always "peaked up" to produce a crispening effect to compensate for the lack of fine detail whereas HD cameras already show the detail so they have a 'flatter" response.

                • 5. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                  kwixster Level 1

                  teddybare thanks for the reply but you missed the point of my post. I'm asking: if you zoom in a 1920 x 1080 video so that it becomes, essentially 1280 x 720, do you lose any quality if the final output is 1280 x 720?

                  • 6. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                    kwixster

                     

                    You wrote

                    I'm recording live events on 3 AVCHD cameras in 1080i29.97. Sometimes I don't get the shot framed exactly the way I want so I'd like to fix it in PreE. I use fx (motion) to achieve my zoom, pan and "cropping". I figured I could "crop" by up to 67% (1080 to 720) to get the shot framed the way I want since my final product is 720p. This gives me more options in post to tweak things. But I don't want to go crazy with this if, ultimately, it ends up looking bad.

                     

                    As I understand it, you are not re-framing because you want to create a 1280 x 720 frame in the Edit area monitor 1920 x 1080 space which has been established for 1920 x 1080 footage based on a 1920 x 1080 project preset based on your 1920 x 1080 source video properties. You are re-framing because you want to cut out certain unwanted parts of the image.

                     

                    Please confirm the above.

                     

                    If you have a 1920 x 1080 space in the Edit area monitor, I am questioning what you are doing when you write

                    I'm asking: if you zoom in a 1920 x 1080 video so that it becomes, essentially 1280 x 720, do you lose any quality if the final output is 1280 x 720?

                     

                    I am not seeing how you achieve this. All I see happening is zooming in on a 1920 x 1080 Edit monitor space so that the image is oversized for the space. What you see in that monitor is what the 720p export will be using as it scales the 1920 x 1080 frame to 1280 x 720 in the encoding process.

                     

                    I do not think that we are in sync yet on the details. Please review my comments and interpretations, and then let me know where I need clarification.

                     

                    Thanks.

                     

                    ATR.

                    • 7. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                      kwixster Level 1

                      Yes, I'm wanting the option to selectively remove unwanted parts. Using a still image as an example: 1) If my source image is 1920 x 1080 and 2) I want to crop the image to remove unwanted parts and; 3) I want my final image to be 1280 x 720; 4) I can crop it to 1280 x 720 and have NO lost in quality (life is good). Can I do this with video?

                      • 8. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                        kwixster

                         

                        Just to let you know that I saw you latest post and am going to respond directly to it within the next few hours today. It is now about 5 pm Thursday where I am.

                         

                        To be continued

                         

                        ATR

                        • 9. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          kwixster

                           

                          When you zoom in on an image, you are essentially scaling it. If the scale is above 100% (the original), you will be zooming in. If the scale is below 100% (the original), you will be zooming out. The major hazard in zooming in is pixelation of the image, the degree depending on the extent of zooming in. So, yes you can lose visual quality zooming in, the significance dependent on the degree of scaling above 100% scale.

                           

                          If you have 1920 x 1080p footage (in a 1920 x 1080p project) that is destined for 720p export and you want to re-frame the video image, you will have a 1920 x 1080 space in the Edit area monitor. If you want to zoom in and reposition the image, you zoom in on the image, taking the scale to over 100%. Then you have room to move (reposition) the image in the Edit area monitor space to the extent that you do not induce black borders. You leave the 720p to the export area settings where the 1920 x 1080 zoomed in and not zoomed in will be scaled automatically to 1280 x 720 during encoding at the directive of the export settings.

                           

                          I am not following when you write

                          if I zoom in on a scene shot in 1080 by 67% (essentially making it 1280 x 720), will I have any loss of quality in the final 720p product?

                          When you zoom in on a scene shot in 1080, you are taking the scale to over 100% which is surely not going to give you a 1280 x 720 image in the 1920 x 1080 space in the monitor. If you zoom out on a scene shot in 1080, you will be taking the scale to less than 100%, and, if scale (constrain proportions enabled)  = 67%, then you will have a 1280 x 720 image in the middle of the 1920 x 1080 space in the monitor. And, there will be large black borders around that 1280 x 720. If you export that situation, what you get is a 1280 x 720 frame which is the scaled down version of the 1920 x 1080 with the 1280 x 720 in its center (black borders included).

                           

                          Lots more. But, that is my take on this so far. Please review and consider and then let me know if we are getting closer to being in sync on this. Again, please let me know where I might be overlooking what you are doing and your goals.

                           

                          Thank you.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                            teddybare Level 1

                            if you zoom in a 1920 x 1080 video so that it becomes, essentially 1280 x 720, do you lose any quality if the final output is 1280 x 720?

                             

                            Naturally you would if you compared it with the original video but if you compared it with an identical view of the same object shot on the camera set to 1280 x 780,  they both should look more alike.

                            The reduced one would be slightly inferior because the pixel difference is one and a half pixels so every second pixel would have to be an approximation of the two adjacent pixels.

                            If you compared it with non-standard 960 x 540 which is exactly one half it would only drop each second pixel and you wouldn hardly see any difference due to pixels.

                            Another factor is how the camera achieves various resolutions. If the pixel elements in the transducer are exactly a multiple then you get much better quality than an intermediate division but a greater degradation when you zoom in the pixels. Most camera have a higher initial pixels and combine adjacent pixels to get the result.

                             

                            Therefore my answer is the same.

                             

                            Theoretically the quality should be the same as your example if the bit conversion is done well by PE but the lens factor will always make it less sharp.

                            You can only tell once the final DVD is burnt and viewed on the type of screen your viewers will be using.

                             

                            There used to be other specialist programs that could convert standards better than PE but maybe the latest PE is OK now?

                             

                            You ALWAYS get some loss in quality when you crop a picture then expand what you have cropped to fill the original space because no picture is perfect.

                            .

                            From the pixel point of view,  it depends on what you are going to view the finished product on and the quality of the screen and player.

                            Eg If you crop an extremely sharp HD pic down to SD then expand it to the same size on a screen, it will look just like it was shot in SD in the first place.

                            But if you view it on a cheap TV set or fuzzy projector you may not notice the difference.

                             

                            However every HD pic in itself (even if you printed it out on paper) will always look less sharp the closer you get to the paper which is not what happens if you zoomed in the camera lens instead because no camera lens is perfect

                            Camera zoom lenses are designed to have sharp resolution for the camera at any zoom angle of view so it is always better to do the zooming in the original camera.

                             

                            So a scene shot in low resolution (SD) will always look better than the same scene shot on a wider zoom angle on a HD camera and zoomed by an editor  so it looks the same view as the SD picture.

                             

                            It depends on how much blurriness you can tolerate and how good the original material is. I have found a 75% zoom in acceptable particularly if the scene is a closeup whereas in a finished wide scene, some detail can become lost. Just sharpen up the clips you crop until they look like the un-cropped ones or until too much grain is obvious.

                             

                            Viewers can easily be fooled into thinking a short blurry closeup is sharper than a long sharp wide shot of the same object because they see more detail.

                            • 11. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                              teddybare

                               

                              For my comments on the matter please refer to post 9 to kwixster.

                               

                              It is yet to be clarified what kwixster is doing when "the does is matter" part of the question is based on something that does not follow.

                              Not seeing how zooming in (scale greater than 100%) is getting this 1280 x 720 in a 1920 x 1080 space in the Edit area monitor. Something is not connecting in the details so far supplied.

                               

                              ATR

                              • 12. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                                kwixster Level 1

                                A. T. Romano,

                                 

                                I think you get what I was asking even when I misspoke on the percentage. You are right, zooming in a 1920 x 1080 image to 1280 x 720 image is 150% not 66.66% (I must have had my calculator or my head upside down). The resulting 1280 x 720 video ism of course, lower resolution than the 1920 x 1080--that's where you pay the price. But if the whole video is 720 and that's what you're going for--no problem.

                                 

                                Of course, that's just the resolution part of it. I'm ignoring the issue of going from Interlaced to Progressive.


                                Here's a video where I used a little of this technique: Tres Bourbonnias "Down that Road" on Vimeo.

                                • 13. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                                  kwixster

                                   

                                  Thanks for the follow ups.

                                   

                                  I viewed your video several times Full and non Full Screen, and its clarity (close ups/zoom ins) and sound were very good. How did the Vimeo conversion playback compare with the file played back on your computer with one of its players?

                                   

                                  Was the 1920 x 1080 source footage interlaced, ending with the 1280 x 720 progressive export?

                                   

                                  Is there any reason why you are not importing 1920 x 1080 and then exporting as 1920 x 1080p and then uploading that 1920 x 1080p to Vimeo at the Vimeo web site? In this case, would Vimeo be doing a better job converting your upload?

                                   

                                  Thanks for the follow up. I think that we are in sync on the essentials.

                                   

                                  Best wishes

                                   

                                  ATR

                                  • 14. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                                    teddybare Level 1

                                    In your example video, which shots were original and which shots were "zoomed in" in the editor?

                                     

                                    The only significant degradation I could spot was the wide shot looked slightly less sharp than the closeup of the girls face.

                                    • 15. Re: Any loss if re-sizing to 720 in Premiere Elements 12?
                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                      teddybare

                                       

                                      You have posted your post 14 "in response to AT Romano".

                                       

                                      Since you want specific information from the originator of thread, please click on a post written by that person so that your thread post is marked "in response to (in this case) kwixster"

                                       

                                      Thanks.

                                       

                                      ATR

                                       

                                      Add On...your post in 14 will be seen nonetheless by all...just a consideration for the future.