26 Replies Latest reply on Jul 27, 2015 6:30 PM by Hudechrome

    Haze

    Hudechrome Level 2

      I've been using the Haze filter frequently and found a problem, with respect to saved Preset;

       

      If I open a file, run the haze filter, then apply a Preset, the Haze still applies, completely wrecking (or exaggerating the enhancement!) the effect. With any other adjustment, (AFAIK!) adding a preset to a previously adjusted image starts from default for the image. IOW, I see no extra tweaks not accounted for in the presets.

       

      This does not apply to the Post Crop Vignetting.

       

      Very nice filter that seems to avoid a blooming effect present with the DxO Haze version. It does cause a blue sky excessive noise at high levels, even with 14 bit nef.

        • 1. Re: Haze
          Hudechrome Level 2

          The Subject name should be Dehaze.

           

          What happened to edit?

          • 2. Re: Haze
            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Presets, in general, don't reset the image back to zeros for everything.

             

            You choose which settings are saved in a preset.  Settings you don't include aren't modified.


            Are you saying that you cannot save a Dehaze=0 in a preset that also does other toning or that you forgot to include Dehaze in a Toning preset, or that Dehaze should be one of the Toning sliders (my opinion) so you don't forget to reset it?

            • 3. Re: Haze
              Hudechrome Level 2

              The Dehaze saves fine, just doesn't unsave when choosing a preset.Try this. Open a file and, if necessary, set it to default. Go to Dehaze, set a value in each parameter, (dehaze and the post crop vignette ). Verify the adjustments are visible on the screen. Now pick a preset. (If you don't have one, set one up before doing this test.) Go to the Effects tab. You will find that post crop is now at zero but Dehaze is not.

               

              Every other preset resets all the sliders, either to -0- or the preset value. Should not be otherwise because -0- is a choice, always. (Unless I'm missing something and have so far escaped paying the penalty accidentally!)

              • 4. Re: Haze
                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Ok, try this:

                 

                Click the Reset button to reset a photo back to LR defaults.

                 

                Drag the Dehaze slider down to -100

                Drag the Post-Crop Vignette Amount slider to +100.

                 

                Observe the photo is whitish with a white border

                 

                In the Presets panel, click Lightroom General Presets : Sharpen - Faces

                 

                Observe nothing changes about the Dehaze or Post-Crop Vignette settings as the photo is still whitish with a white border.

                --

                The statement "every other preset resets all the sliders" is false.  Presets set sliders of whatever sections and settings that had checkmarks in them when the preset was created, that's all.   If every preset you make has all the checkboxes enabled then sure all those values are set to whatever LR currently has them set for, which could be all zeros, but in general presets don't have all slider values saved.

                 

                If you are routinely saving all slider values in every preset -- I don't know why you'd be doing this but maybe you are -- then what you could be observing is that you created a preset prior to LR 2015.1 when Dehaze didn't exist, so there's no way for that preset to reset Dehaze to anything.

                • 5. Re: Haze
                  Hudechrome Level 2

                  Settings.jpg

                  Here is the screen shot for the preset window which is what the image opens with. Notice both Dehaze and Post crop are checked. I leave this alone. I make a set of adjustments, run through a series of images and use" Previous Conversion" and if I like what I see across the board, I name the settings as Presets for future use. I do not mess with the check marks.

                   

                  If, in fact, certain settings not set did not revert to zero, I would have weird results as I tried these settings, one by one, on open images, but I don't. That is until I started using DeHaze. It showed up in spades as a "weird" result when moving on to different filters after pre-engaging it. In fact, all I need to do is use Dehaze alone on an image save it, then invoke  a Preset and it shows up. If I use both Dehaze and Post Crop on a default image, save it then apply a preset, post crop reverts to zero but dehaze doesn't as stated here earlier.

                   

                  As it stands now, every time I invoke a Preset, if I have tried Dehaze at any time in the process of investigation, I will always have to go to Effects and reset it to -0-, not a pleasant prospect. The power of Dehaze pretty much demands it's being invoked before any further adjustments are applied

                   

                  I stand my ground: When I invoke a preset on an image already having a set of adjustments, as I almost always do for A:B comparisons, every slider not used in that preset returns to zero, no matter it's position previous to invoking the preset. I have carefully checked my work by actually looking at all sliders when I developed presets (Duh!). I have never had to manually return any slider to zero after invoking a preset that needs to be at zero, until now.

                   

                  All my Presets were developed well before cc2015 and have transferred over with no complications. Until now. It's what I expect software to do, otherwise, Presets are nonsense. Look at the problems that show when upgrading and workspace settings are not all transferred as previously set. Instant insanity!

                   

                  Yeeesh!

                  • 6. Re: Haze
                    Hudechrome Level 2

                    Oh wait! You said Lightroom. I'm in Bridge.

                    • 7. Re: Haze
                      Hudechrome Level 2

                      To be complete:

                       

                      Win 7 64,

                      cc2015

                      Accessing ACR trough Bridge

                      • 8. Re: Haze
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Ok, sorry, I spend so much time replying on the LR forum that I forgot this was the ACR forum.

                         

                        So the issue you're reporting is that if the Dehaze slider is set to 0 and a preset is made with the checkbox in front of Dehaze which should save the Dehaze=0 in the preset, then if you apply the preset to an image that already has Dehaze set to a non-zero value, that non-zero value remains.

                         

                        I am trying to separate what you're saying is wrong from the difference in approach that all checkboxes are enabled when saving your presets and but not when I save mine.  The real world example you've come across where this is a problem is when you have all checkboxes set, but the essense of the issue you're reporting is only that Dehaze=0 does not get applied if it was saved in a preset, right?

                        • 9. Re: Haze
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          Correct.

                           

                          I apply DeHaze, check to see the checkbox is checked, it is. I let the setting remain, then go to one of my presets which doesn't have the option for Haze when I originally generated it, run it, look to see that the DeHaze values persists and the checkbox is still checked. No checkboxes have reverted to unchecked, they are consistent as the screen shot shows.

                           

                          IMO, this is a bug. A nasty one, since small slider errors will go unnoticed. I only noticed it because the adjustment is large, +60 or so.

                          • 10. Re: Haze
                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            The checkboxes are ONLY for when you CREATE a preset, and tell ACR what settings to put INTO the preset file.  The preset checkboxes are NOT A FILTER on what settings from the preset file to apply.  All the settings stored in the file will be applied.  The checkboxes are also not what settings to reset before you apply a preset.  None of the settings that are not stored in the preset file are reset.

                             

                            It makes perfect sense that a preset created before Dehaze wouldn't reset Dehaze.

                             

                            Go open one of the preset files with a text editor and you'll see what settings are stored in it.

                            • 11. Re: Haze
                              Hudechrome Level 2

                              Of course not. But they are a default that, if no adjustment is indicated, they remain at -0-. It's always operated that way.

                               

                              Why am I only seeing this now and only on Dehaze? I still call it a bug, and if it isn't seen that way, it will cripple my use of Presets or in any case, severly slow them down as I will constantly have to check up on but one filter.

                               

                              First, DxO no longer functions as it used to, now ACR?

                               

                              I'll use the editor later.......

                              • 12. Re: Haze
                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                You said you adjusted Dehaze to something non-zero using the slider, then applied a preset that didn't have a Dehaze setting stored in it, and the result was that Dehaze was not reset.  This is entirely normal.

                                 

                                The checkboxes, that were enabled when you actually created the preset, control what settings are stored in a preset.  There was no Dehaze setting when you created your older presets so no Dehaze setting was stored in the preset file and no Dehaze setting is reset.  There was a Post-Crop-Vignette setting in the preset file so it get's reset.

                                 

                                The settings that are not stored in a preset remain the same as before the preset was applied.  They are not reset to defaults or zeros or anything else, they remain unchanged as they should.

                                • 13. Re: Haze
                                  Hudechrome Level 2

                                  Nope. No Ceegar. I have another setting I've never used...Split Toning. So I set it up. Uuugly color! Invoke Antique. Looks right. No overcolor cyan. Look at Split toning. It's back at zero. Cancel the Antique, split tone is back. Exactly what I expect.

                                   

                                  So far, no slider behaves like Dehaze. It's an anomaly no matter how one looks at it.

                                   

                                  However, I did do another test. I set up a brand new Preset, named and saved it called test. I opened a file, set Dehaze, went to "Test" and dehaze returned to zero.

                                   

                                  Conclusion: All the adjustments available in ACR have been there since Columbus was a midshipman, except Dehaze, so that all the Presets I've'd developed since before Columbus graduated behave as I've found for several generations. Columbus graduates, a new single slider is added and bingo! All my presets are toast if I use it.

                                   

                                  The best way short of having Adobe fix it is hopefully I can open the files in an editor, save it, delete the file then Start a new one, same name and do a copy and paste. And hopefully, the old files already with a saved preset will look the same as before.

                                   

                                  ???

                                  • 14. Re: Haze
                                    Colin Holgate MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                    I bet Columbus used a Can(n)on camera, though probably only 640x480 in those days.

                                    • 15. Re: Haze
                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                      Gah! Hoisted by my own......!

                                      • 16. Re: Haze
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        There is nothing wrong other than understanding what happens and what doesn’t happen with presets.

                                         

                                        Dehaze is a new function so cannot be recorded in any old presets.  Somehow this concept is inordinately confusing.

                                        • 17. Re: Haze
                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                          "Dehaze is a new function so cannot be recorded in any old presets."

                                           

                                          Had you started with that statement, we would not be having this conversation. It is not confusing. What is confusing is not knowing. It is obvious what you say is true, after running my own experiment with a test file. After chasing my tail, the only logical answer was the one that prompted me to run the test.

                                           

                                          That still leaves me with hopelessly useless presets or a tool I cannot use in updating already adjusted files through the presets I have. That's like having a new tool in my auto tool chest that does a marvelous job with difficult work, only to have the head set for a different sizing than either metric or standard with no way to use either. What good is it for all my older stuff?

                                           

                                          Does anyone believe in Backwards compatible here any more?

                                           

                                          In fact, unless I generate new presets, I cannot use Dehaze in presets at all.

                                           

                                          So, ssprengle, how do I locate and open the presets in a text editor?

                                          • 18. Re: Haze
                                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            I expressed this same concept several times.

                                             

                                            I didn’t know what you didn’t know, but I did recognize your forum profile name from long ago and assumed you knew what you were talking about.

                                             

                                            The statement about wishing presets were backwards compatible suggests you’re still not understanding what presets are:  a collection of one or more adjustments that are stored in a text file and only those settings that are recorded in the preset file are changed in the image when the preset is applied.  All other settings not stored in the preset file are left alone.  If you always store all settings values in every preset file then you wouldn’t know how presets work in the more general case, since to you applying a preset resets all settings. 

                                             

                                            As far as what to do to add Dehaze=0 to all your presets, either recreate your presets with the Dehaze slider remembered, or use a text editor to add the few lines that are a Dehaze=0 property to the preset file.  To figure out what changes need to be made to add Dehaze to a preset file, compare a copy of a preset before Dehaze and then the same preset you’ve recreated in a new file with Dehaze added. 

                                             

                                            This same situation would have occurred several times in the past whenever Adobe added new sliders to the UI.  For example presets created before Clarity was added wouldn’t have a way to reset Clarity to 0.  The same thing for the Uprights perspective correction.

                                             

                                            And will likely happen in the future any time a new setting is added.  Besides Dehaze, Adobe also added Blacks and Whites sliders to the various brushes.  Brushes are localized edits so you probably don’t have presets for them or not as many.

                                            • 19. Re: Haze
                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                              My Presets are not simple and recreating them perfectly is out of the question by resetting sliders. All the sliders in all the menu except for Toning and Tone Curve are configured, sometimes over a period of time figured in weeks, with variations on a theme having a separate but related name. It must be a matter of luck I never had this problem before. Once I ran the test Preset, the answer appeared.

                                               

                                              No, I don't know how presets work from the pov of being able to write a piece of software to configure it. I simply use them. The checkbox  was set up with all sliders checked as i did not want to find out the hard way that some would work but others not because they are not checked. I see the checkmark as "Enable" and no check as "Disable", common in Windows. So I enable all of them. Why would one not if exploring possibilities for Presets? Other times, like batch processing in ACR, I enable only those items I wish to use in the batch.

                                               

                                              Thanks for hanging in! I'll examine the files and reset them accordingly.

                                              • 20. Re: Haze
                                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                                Uh oh! It isn't as simple as editing the setting in Wordpad. I made another test Settings in which I have only Dehaze selected and saved it as a test setting. I opened it in Wordpad found the line for Dehaze. I copied it verbatim into two active settingsA and B by opening the files and inserting the line crs:Dehaze="0" and saved it.

                                                 

                                                I then opened an image in ACR went to A, set it to the minus side, then reopened the same file and set B to a plus side. Then I flipped back and forth between A and B. What I expected was A would show soft, B , hard. Didn't happen. A opened correctly, flipping to be Dehaze had reverted to -0-.

                                                 

                                                Have to get some sleep.

                                                • 21. Re: Haze
                                                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  To add Dehaze to your existing presets using the ACR interface you would call up an existing preset, then resave it after making sure Dehaze was zero and that you have a checkmark next to Dehaze, too.  I am not sure if you can save over the top of your existing preset or have to create a new one with a new name.  I rarely use them in ACR or Lightroom.

                                                   

                                                  So did editing your A and B settings work or not?  You say "Didn't Happen" like something was wrong but then you say "Dehaze had reverted to -0-", which would be what adding crs:Dehaze="0" is supposed to do.

                                                  • 22. Re: Haze
                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                    No, they didn't. That's my point. I edited  each preset independently then ran each in secession on the same image. The Dehaze checkmark seems to be default because I never had to add it.

                                                     

                                                    Your instruction to call up an existing preset reset etc is exactly what I did when I first found the problem. What appears to be happening now is that, even though I did generate an updated version of two of the Presets, using the text editor as described, upon invoking one after another, both with their own non-zero settings, the second application reverts to zero, even though I actually saved it non-zero.

                                                     

                                                    I have more trials to do.

                                                     

                                                    I notice that my posts are being moderated. Moderators, why? This is new, and didn't start immediately.

                                                    • 23. Re: Haze
                                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      I’ve had a couple posts moderated, too, recently, but they had maybe 3 or 4 links to Adobe websites.  I think they are trying to catch the spam that usually has Asian, Indian or Middle Eastern characters in the subject and body along with many lines of websites or phone numbers that I’m sure lead to no good, and it may be how many links are in one post or how many posts within a short amount of time that triggers a moderation. 

                                                       

                                                      I thought you said you put Dehaze=”0” in the settings files. 

                                                       

                                                      If you give very specific information about what the preset had in it – it can be a test preset that doesn’t record that many values -- and what lines of text you put where in the file, and what settings the image had before and after applying the preset I can try to duplicate what you’re seeing.

                                                      • 24. Re: Haze
                                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                                        You probably won't be able to dupe this unless you already have 2 Presets in ACR built before cc2015. If you do, try this:

                                                         

                                                        Open a photo, preferably from Camera Raw defaults. (All my ACR defaults have only a fixed WB). Select a Preset. Set a value for Dehaze, a large one to see it as well as the number. Now select another Preset. The Dehaze is still present. Cancel and do the same thing using Post Crop Vignette. PCV will drop to zero when you move to the second Preset.

                                                         

                                                        I invite any other reader to try this. You have to have presets from before cc2015, and at least two independent Presets.

                                                        • 25. Re: Haze
                                                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          What you’re describing is normal.  Dehaze is not in those old presets so apply one of those old presets won't change the value of Dehaze.  Post-crop Vignetting is in those old presets so it will affect the value of PCV if it is different than what is stored in the preset.  You’ve already marked my reply with a Correct Answer flag.  I thought we were past that.

                                                           

                                                          What I’m asking is for a reproducible issue with using a text editor to add Dehaze to an existing old preset and having that not work how you want.

                                                          • 26. Re: Haze
                                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                                            Ooops! Sorry! My mind is elsewhere. Serious family issues.

                                                             

                                                            I'm looking into the problem with the added lines with the editor. I'll be back later.