12 Replies Latest reply on Aug 20, 2015 10:10 AM by Jao vdL

    Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted

    Bleeding


      Hi guys,

       

      my wide gamut monitor is calibrated with a pre-built ICC profile for my monitor from TFTCentral and identical brightness/contrast/RGB settings - it might not be perfect but I have no calibration hardware available yet. Looking on my pictures on other monitors, they appear to be identical, so I think it's good enough for now.

       

      But having this calibration done now, I tried out soft proofing and compared exported JPGs to what they look in Lightroom - and I noticed that the skies from nearly all my photos have changed dramatically. Sometimes there are small issues with other colors, too - according to soft proofing, but they are rather subtle and I can't spot the difference with my eyes, so I think that should be OK. But the skies ... oh my. They tend to go into purple tones from deep blue and look horrible. I can also see in soft proofing that nearly all of my skies gets marked red when I turn on destination gamut warnings.

       

      My question is: is this normal? Is SRGB really that bad in supporting deep blue colors? As nearly all of my photos have this, it must be a very common issue. Of course, sometimes I change the hue, saturation and lumination of the blues to have more dramatic skies ... but on many photos, I normally just darken the sky a bit with a graduated filter (normally between -0,25 and -0,5) ... and the only other thing that might affect the blues is that I normally have Vibrance increased to a value between +15 and +35 and contrast between +15 and +35 ... I normally don't touch saturation. Nothing too dramatic, I'd say ... but yet, it seems to put all my skies out of the supported color ranges in SRGB ... in fact, if I try to correct this, I really have to make my skies look washed out and uninteresting to achieve no color clipping.

      So if I'm not doing something wrong ... how do you achieve nice, saturated blue skies when you export to SRGB? It's frustrating to have so nice looking photos in Lightroom but as soon as they are epxorted to JPG they look washed out in the skies or, worse, the colors are completely gone nuts.

       

      Edit: I should add, I'm talking about photos shot in daylight conditions with not or only partly clouded skies.

       

      Any help would be greatly appreciated

      Thanks!

        • 1. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          When softproofing to sRGB, do you get any out-of-gamut warnings for the sky if you turn on those indicators by clicking the little triangles on the histogram?

          • 2. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
            Bleeding Level 1

            ssprengel wrote:

             

            When softproofing to sRGB, do you get any out-of-gamut warnings for the sky if you turn on those indicators by clicking the little triangles on the histogram?

            Yes, as I mentioned in my post, nearly all of my skies are marked red when I turn on out of gamut warnings. I find it strange that I have this problem on nearly all of my photos that include a blue, daylight sky and I wonder if this is really a problem that is that common ...

            • 3. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              Bernhard König wrote:

              my wide gamut monitor is calibrated with a pre-built ICC profile for my monitor from TFTCentral and identical brightness/contrast/RGB settings - it might not be perfect but I have no calibration hardware available yet. Looking on my pictures on other monitors, they appear to be identical, so I think it's good enough for now.

              You'll need to rectify this but to move on...

              But having this calibration done now, I tried out soft proofing and compared exported JPGs to what they look in Lightroom - and I noticed that the skies from nearly all my photos have changed dramatically.

              Compared to LR viewing in what application? IF it's not color managed, it's not going to match the soft proof in LR.

              Lastly, the Out of Gamut overlay in Lightroom (and Photoshop) is buggy and incorrect. So don't put much faith in what you see from it.

              • 4. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                Bleeding Level 1

                thedigitaldog wrote:

                 

                Compared to LR viewing in what application? IF it's not color managed, it's not going to match the soft proof in LR.

                Lastly, the Out of Gamut overlay in Lightroom (and Photoshop) is buggy and incorrect. So don't put much faith in what you see from it.

                 

                I simply used Windows (10) Photo Viewer, the desktop variant, which is color managed. I also used the "modern" photo viewer app, which is not, there the photo looks pretty good yet oversaturated. But of course, the important part is the color managed impression.

                 

                Which is the same I have done on my other PC with a completely different monitor ... where the exact same problems are visible on the image's sky. It's very obvious.

                 

                What's really bugging me is that this problem is so common ... I have checked photos from years ago which I only subtly edited from their out-of-cam appearance, still SRGB causes a noticeable shift in colors that pretty much corresponds with the areas marked by the out of gamut overlay. I could not find any photo with a blue sky that does not have this issue ...

                 

                And I really can't believe SRGB is not able to represent a pretty standard blue sky ... so I was interested how the experience from other users is ...

                • 5. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                  thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                  So the soft proof to sRGB matches what you see in Windows Photo Viewer?

                  • 6. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                    Bleeding Level 1

                    thedigitaldog wrote:

                     

                    So the soft proof to sRGB matches what you see in Windows Photo Viewer?

                    Yes, and so far, that's great. But I find it very strange that the SRGB color space seems to cause that nearly all my pictures get unrealistic, ugly looking sky colors. I wonder if this is a common issue for other photographers too, and if so, what do you do about it to still get realistic, nice blue skies on SRGB exports?

                     

                    And if it's not an issue for other photographers, I definitiely must be doing something wrong. But, as I said, I normally take the photos out of cam and do not apply much more than a little bit of darkening in the sky with a graduated filter (-0,25 to -0,50), an increase to contrast and vibrance (both betwen +15 and +35) and that's it ... I can't believe that this already outpaces what SRGB can support on nearly all of my photos.

                    • 7. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                      Bernhard König wrote:

                      But I find it very strange that the SRGB color space seems to cause that nearly all my pictures get unrealistic, ugly looking sky colors. I wonder if this is a common issue for other photographers too, and if so, what do you do about it to still get realistic, nice blue skies on SRGB exports?

                      It can be, but what would be useful is if you can provide a raw or at least the raw as seen in LR prior to the soft proof and then after. But an issue could be how you're viewing the numbers since you say you've got a wide gamut display but no hardware calibration, hence having a look at the raw would be really useful. FWIW, I'm also working on a wide gamut display but calibrated (NEC SpectraView).

                      When converting to sRGB from a wide gamut space, you're clipping colors to sRGB. But I'd expect green's to be most affected. So seeing an original would be helpful.

                      • 8. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        B;leeding, such issues are nearly always caused by a bad monitor profile. Even when the blue is out of sRGB gamut, you should not see very large color shifts. It is reasonably common for blue skies to be out of sRGB gamut and if the primary of the blue channel that is encoded in the monitor profile is even just a bit wrong, you can get huge blue to purple shifts because of gamut clipping to sRGB resulting in a change in perceived hue due to the mapping to the monitor profile being different for the clipped color vs the unclipped color. I think your issue is therefore exactly what digital dog identified needs to be rectified. You really need to do an actual hardware calibration on your specific monitor.

                         

                        > a little bit of darkening in the sky with a graduated filter (-0,25 to -0,50), an increase to contrast and vibrance (both betwen +15 and +35) and that's it ... I can't believe that this already outpaces what SRGB can support on nearly all of my photos.

                         

                        That will easily push blues out of sRGB gamut. Vibrance +35 is quite aggressive and combined with increased contrast and lowered exposure you will get there quite quickly depending on the image. sRGB is not a very wide space.

                        • 9. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Bleeding wrote:

                          my wide gamut monitor is calibrated with a pre-built ICC profile for my monitor from TFTCentral and identical brightness/contrast/RGB settings - it might not be perfect but I have no calibration hardware available yet.

                           

                          But having this calibration done now, I tried out soft proofing and compared exported JPGs to what they look in Lightroom - and I noticed that the skies from nearly all my photos have changed dramatically.

                          So the problem only occurred after assigning the TFT Central monitor profile? As

                          Best suggestion is to get a good monitor calibrator and set its software to create ICC Version 2 Matrix profiles and NOT ICC Version 4 or LUT profiles.

                          • 10. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                            Bleeding Level 1

                            Jao vdL wrote:
                            B;leeding, such issues are nearly always caused by a bad monitor profile. Even when the blue is out of sRGB gamut, you should not see very large color shifts. It is reasonably common for blue skies to be out of sRGB gamut and if the primary of the blue channel that is encoded in the monitor profile is even just a bit wrong, you can get huge blue to purple shifts because of gamut clipping to sRGB resulting in a change in perceived hue due to the mapping to the monitor profile being different for the clipped color vs the unclipped color. I think your issue is therefore exactly what digital dog identified needs to be rectified. You really need to do an actual hardware calibration on your specific monitor.

                             

                             

                            Thanks, so it is normal to be out of SRGB gamut frequently with blue skies ... but it should not be that clearly visible with obviously shifted colors. And a bad monitor profile can cause this to happen. So I will push my plan to do a real hardware calibration asap, just need to get the hardware ...

                             

                             

                            That will easily push blues out of sRGB gamut. Vibrance +35 is quite aggressive and combined with increased contrast and lowered exposure you will get there quite quickly depending on the image. sRGB is not a very wide space.

                             

                            Ok, that helps me a lot ... to know that this is not uncommon, but it shouldn't cause this very clearly visible wrong/shifted colors. I'll report back as soon as I got my monitor calibrated.

                             

                            Thanks again!

                            • 11. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                              Bleeding Level 1

                              trshaner wrote:

                               

                              So the problem only occurred after assigning the TFT Central monitor profile? As

                               

                              Well, yes, but before that, I didn't hat any profile for my montitor ... so everything was way overstaurated, and there was no way to proof against SRGB as this would be oversaturated as well.

                               

                              But thanks, I will try this, and as mentioned in my reply to Jao vdL, I'll try to get calibaration done asap ...

                              • 12. Re: Exporting to / soft proofing SRGB - all my blue skies get color shifted
                                Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                >Well, yes, but before that, I didn't hat any profile for my montitor ... so everything was way overstaurated, and there was no way to proof against SRGB as this would be oversaturated as well.

                                 

                                While you get a hardware calibrator sorted out, you should probably use adobeRGB as the monitor profile and use the simple calibration tools (to set your contrast and brightness on the monitor controls) from here: LCD monitor test images while you are waiting for it to arrive. That should take care of the over saturation issue and should not give you the color shifts when soft proofing. Also note that many of the cheaper calibrators do not deal with wide gamut displays all that well. Make sure you check whether any one that you get does explicitly support them.