17 Replies Latest reply on Aug 24, 2015 11:14 PM by Keith_Reeder

    Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?

    Alp Er Tunga Level 1

      As the dehaze slider is on the effects panel which is below the the detail panel, I think that dehaze adjustments has not any adverse effect on the previously applied sharpening (for example sharpening applied on a TIFF file in Ps). Any confirmation or correction? Thanks. 

        • 1. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

          I don't think the order in which you apply adjustments matters for the quality of the final result.

          But the way they are ordered from to bottom suggests a logical order to apply them - major tonal adjustments first, and then the "minor" stuff further down.

          I'd say that the Dehaze slider locigally belongs higher up - in the Presence area along with Clarity.

           

          I haven't used Dehaze a lot, but I wouldn't say it affects sharpness, although it can give an impression of increased sharpness because of the higher contrast.

          But I have noticed that i will accentuate noise, especially in scanned photos.

          • 2. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
            sarsaxen Adobe Employee (Admin)

            Hi Alper,

             

            The new Dehaze feature is not going to make changes to your existing images. Its an additional feature that you can use on your images to eliminate fog and haze from photos, including underwater shots, for startlingly clear images. Haze can also be added to a photo for artistic effect.

             

            Regards

            Sarika

            • 3. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
              99jon Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Best to get the white balance correct and after using dehaze it may be necessary to tweak basic sliders again such as shadows, vibrance etc.

              There is a video at this link and an explanation of the algorithm.

               

              http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/2015/06/adobe-announces-camera-raw-9-1-for-photoshop-cc-and-l ightroom-cc.html

              • 4. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                Alp Er Tunga Level 1

                Hi Sarika,

                 

                As Berntsen indicated, the dehaze slider algorithm mainly works by increasing contrast ... with additional colorfullness ... and it is applied with a mask.

                So, it can have nonignorable effects on the tonal and color values of an image.

                In this respect, would it be more logical to place it on the basic panel ... as Bernsten indicated above in his post?

                I would like to learn the Adobe motivation for placing it on the effects panel.

                 

                If possible, can you please give us a little bit more information?

                • 5. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                  ManiacJoe Adobe Community Professional

                  The dehaze function will not affect the sharpening settings you have used already.

                  However, it will affect the sharpness of the image. Thus, after applying the dehaze feature, you may need to go back to the Details and/or Basic panels for some minor adjustments.

                   

                  If you are thinking that dehaze might help your image, I would go that feature early in the workflow not later, similarly with the White Balance and the Tone Curve.

                  • 6. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                    sarsaxen Adobe Employee (Admin)

                    HI Alper,


                    The Dehaze technology is based on a physical model of how light is transmitted, and it tries to estimate light that is lost due to absorption and scattering through the atmosphere and with a single click you can easily remove fog or haze from a photograph, dramatically improving image details and color saturation without using or needing any masking. For the best results, you’ll want to set the white balance for the image before using Dehaze. Then, in the Effects panel, move the slider to the right – to easily remove the haze from the original scene.

                    That is why we chose to add Dehaze to the Effects panel, not the Basic panel as we recommend completing Basic corrections before adjusting Dehaze.


                    Regards

                    Sarika


                    • 7. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                      Alp Er Tunga Level 1

                      Thank you so much for all the information you shared with us here.

                       

                      It seems to us that ... it should be applied early in the workflow (as Joe said) and the presence section of the basic panel would be the more appropriate place for presenting it (as Berntsen said).

                      So, maybe ... presenting it on the effects panel means a violation for the top-to-bottom rule currently hold in Lr in the develop module.

                      • 8. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I think Adobe may have put it in the Effects panel so they could easily hide it from Photoshop Elements which doesn't have the Effects panel.

                        • 9. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                          Keith_Reeder Level 4

                          Alper Tonga wrote:

                           

                          So, maybe ... presenting it on the effects panel means a violation for the top-to-bottom rule currently hold in Lr in the develop module.

                          No.

                           

                          It's not a "necessary" part of the workflow, unlike (say) white balance, noise reduction, tonal adjustments, sharpening etc. so placing at the end, in the Effects panel, makes perfect sense.

                          • 10. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                            Alp Er Tunga Level 1

                             

                            It's not a "necessary" part of the workflow, unlike (say) white balance, noise reduction, tonal adjustments, sharpening etc. so placing at the end, in the Effects panel, makes perfect sense.

                             

                             

                            Thanks a lot ... if it was on the basic panel, it could be wrongly perceived as one of the main controls. But, it is not so, it has a special task for some specific images.

                            • 11. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                              ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              For me, Dehaze is somewhere between the usefulness of Clarity/Vibrance which I almost always use, and Saturation, which I rarely if ever use, and it changes the toning so I'd group it with those lower Basic sliders.

                              • 12. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                Keith_Reeder Level 4

                                It changes the toning, but it's not a standard, basic adjustment like adjusting black/white points, levels/curves, highlight/shadow recovery - it's a cosmetic "optional extra" (albeit a potentially useful one) to be used as required.

                                • 13. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  “Standard” means what, exactly?  It can’t mean “traditional” because we just got the slider a few months back and there’s no history of it being used or not used with any of us in Adobe products.

                                   

                                  It affects contrast, mainly by adjusting the black point differently in various portions of the image similar to how Clarity works by adjusting various toning parameters differently in different areas of the image.  Both contrast and black-point are up in the Basic area.

                                   

                                  Is the Dehaze function so poorly implemented that it significantly degrades every image it’s used on and is a last-resort sort of function?  It is certainly not the same sort of after-everything-else function that Post-Crop-Vignette and Add-Noise are.

                                   

                                  Maybe that is the attitude Adobe has towards it, but I want to use it, a little the extent to which still needs to be determined experimentally, on many of my photos.

                                   

                                  It is certainly not pleasant to scroll all the way down to the bottom and all the way up to the top multiple times just to complete the toning operation.

                                   

                                  I still think it’s just UI laziness to put it down at the bottom so it’s easier to hide from Elements/LR6/CS6 users.

                                   

                                  If it is “supposed to be” a low-usage function then put it under Saturation which I rarely ever use.

                                  • 14. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                    AnnShelbourne Level 2

                                    Sarika:

                                     

                                    I can only imagine that, at the time when the decision to shove Dehaze into Effects Panel was made, Adobe had not yet fully grasped the myriad ways in which Dehaze would be used  for everyday regular editing. I strongly suspect that, at that time, Dehaze was being perceived as a Landscapes filter — and nothing else?

                                    As it has evolved, Dehaze seems to have turned into a far more versatile and Basic editing tool than was originally envisaged?

                                    When used in the ways that so many of us do now use Dehazet, it is not a question of simply adjusting the WB but of adjusting MANY of the other sliders, back and forth, as we fine-tune our results. It is essential, for efficient working, that we can do this in the same Basic Panel

                                    So Adobe does need to rethink this issue — and quickly before the concrete sets too hard.

                                    • 15. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      Ann Shelbourne wrote:

                                      So Adobe does need to rethink this issue — and quickly before the concrete sets too hard.

                                      They have. And we both know by now, it's not going to be moved. The concrete is set. We all need to move on.

                                      • 16. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Maybe with LR7 they’ll put it in a more sensible place from the users’ point-of-view, rather than the developer-convenience point-of-view…if there is a LR 7, not just CC.

                                        • 17. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                          AnnShelbourne Level 2

                                          Andrew:

                                          You are most welcome to move on.

                                          I prefer to follow my own road, at my own speed and at the time of my choosing!

                                          • 18. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                            Ann Shelbourne wrote:

                                             

                                            Andrew:

                                            You are most welcome to move on.

                                            I prefer to follow my own road, at my own speed and at the time of my choosing!

                                            Life's short Ann, but if you wish, hold your breath and continue to demand Dehaze be moved. And if you can somehow find a way to become the next Adobe CEO, LR product manager or the next Mrs. Knoll, you might get what you want. But a very talented guy once sung:

                                            You can't always get what you want

                                            But if you try sometimes well you just might find

                                            You get what you need

                                             

                                            • 19. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                              Steve Sprengel wrote:

                                               

                                              Maybe with LR7 they’ll put it in a more sensible place from the users’ point-of-view, rather than the developer-convenience point-of-view…if there is a LR 7, not just CC.

                                              The issue is, sensible is subjective. I've asked for Dehaze to be moved from day one. It's not going to happen. The reasons why it was placed where it was placed have been explained. We might not agree, that doesn't make the decision non sensible. The likelihood it will be moved for LR7 or whatever the future product(s) are called, now that the cement has dried is very, very unlikely. What other control in LR/ACR has been moved after a release, I can't think of any off hand?

                                              • 20. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                You're not supposed to be using Dehaze for much is the reason given here, the unwritten corollary would be that the reason it was included, if not for photo-processing, is for a marketing ploy to get LR 5 users to upgrade to CC rather than 6, and the ironic side effect that the LR 6 users who feel cheated by not having Dehaze don't realize how annoyed they'd be by actually trying to use it, and that the workaround presets and plug-in are much better than what LR CC has.

                                                 

                                                What UI feature has changed position after being released to the public, you ask?  I would ask what UI feature has been added to a product in the 0.1 release two months into the product's life cycle?  So much for CC users getting features early, as it seems they also get ill-conceived UI placement of those new features.  Or was the Dehaze function down in the Effects panel in early internal builds of LR 6/2015 for almost a year and purposely held back from the dot-0 release for marketing reasons?

                                                -

                                                There is a possibility that LR UI team had nothing to do with the placement of Dehaze and associated annoyance and it was PS/ACR that drove the UI design, where the Effects tab in ACR is only an inch or two away from the Basic tab so the amount of annoyance is much less than it is in LR.  In ACR, there isn't that much more mouse movement involved in going to the Effects tab and down a little to Dehaze as compared to if it was at the bottom of the Basic panel in ACR, only the added clicks.

                                                • 21. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                                  Keith_Reeder Level 4

                                                  ssprengel wrote:

                                                   

                                                  the LR 6 users who feel cheated by not having Dehaze don't realize how annoyed they'd be by actually trying to use it

                                                  Jeez - if ever there was a "First World Problem"...

                                                   

                                                  I don't find its use remotely annoying - it's where it should be, and it must take more effort to be bent out of shape about its location than to just get on with it.

                                                   

                                                  What is annoying is all this yammering on about such a trivial non-issue. Stick Lr into Solo mode, and the DeHaze slider is never more than a couple of inches of mouse movement and a couple of clicks away.

                                                   

                                                  Is that really so much trouble?

                                                  • 22. Re: Does dehaze slider affect sharpening?
                                                    Keith_Reeder Level 4

                                                    CameraAnn wrote:

                                                     

                                                    I can only imagine that, at the time when the decision to shove Dehaze into Effects Panel was made, Adobe had not yet fully grasped the myriad ways in which Dehaze would be used  for everyday regular editing.

                                                    Don't worry, Ann - that didn't come across as patronising and condescending at all.

                                                     

                                                    Adobe must count itself lucky it's got customers like you around to keep it right...

                                                     

                                                    You do realise that DeHaze can be used in all these myriad other ways from where it is - don't you?