18 Replies Latest reply on Aug 25, 2015 12:40 PM by ssprengel

    5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?

    Bruce in Philly Level 1

      I can't find AWB w in LR 6.  Is it supported? If not when?

       

      I shoot RAW only.  Adobe kinda blew it on this one.  AWBw is a new auto white balance option and it does not appear to be supported in LR6.  With my new 5DS and my old 5D MK II, I would get yellow/orange casts sometimes during outdoor shots for some reason.  Now in Canon DPP, I can select AWBw and pop!  The casts are gone.  Canon finally figured out a better AWB but I can't get it in LR.  So, I guess I will use DPP for bad casts, export to TIFF, and import to LR.  Not good adobe, get the update in there.

       

      Peace

      Bruce in Philly

        • 1. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
          richardplondon Level 4

          Have you tried Lightroom's own Auto setting for WB? (underneath "As Shot")

          • 2. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
            Keith_Reeder Level 4

            Not sure what you expect of Adobe here, Bruce - White Priority AWB is a Canon-specific setting that only DPP can understand and apply (like, say, ALO) - Lr simply can't understand or use the metadata tag.

            • 3. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
              ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              You've posted another sequence of replies that have been blocked, perhaps because they had links to a personal server that could easily be hosting viruses, or perhaps because they have a non-neutral tone to their phrasing.  In those replies, you included three example shots, I will repeat two of them, here, skipping the As Shot non-cropped version:

               

              LR - As Shot WB:

               

              LR - Auto WB:

               

              To me the top one looks correct as far as being lit by the orange light of the setting sun during "golden hour" while the bottom one looks rather pale which is not unexpected because nothing in the image is actually neutral and using the bird's underside as neutral instead of it's natural yellow makes everything too cyan.

               

              What you didn't include is what the camera/DPP render the WB as.  LR appears to be working correctly.  The camera records the color of light and what it determines the WB to have been, and LR uses those numbers along with its camera profile to make the image.

               

              LR is using information from the camera with As Shot.  Without seeing DPP's version it's hard to comment on how well LR is doing with the camera information.

              • 4. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                Bruce in Philly Level 1

                Sorry, I just got around to producing this bird in DPP using AWB White Priority.  Only other tweak was the crop, otherwise all defaults.

                 

                So to re-iterate, the RAW out of the camera via LR with defaults looked really yellow and orange... as it does in DPP using the defaults.  But, Canon added a new feature that appears to address this sometimes yellow cast I seemed to get quite often in the field.  The JPG below created with DPP using Canon's new AWB White Priority looks really good.... not perfect, but about the best so far.  So, why hasn't Adobe copied Canon's new feature?  They copied everything else for LR, picture styles, As Shot, Auto WB but not the new Auto WB wp.

                 

                1R6A1989DPPAWBwp.JPG

                Thanx

                Bruce in Philly.

                • 5. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  The camera is doing something else after it has applied the white-balance that it is communicating to LR.   Adobe doesn't attempt to do any camera-specific (in camera or in DPP) post processing.  It takes the raw data, the white-balance/illuminant-temperature numbers the camera provides and does its own thing after that.

                   

                  One question would be what camera profile are you using with your LR - As Shot WB.  If it's Adobe Standard then that will never look like the camera treatment.  Some of the other camera-match profiles would be closer. 

                  • 6. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                    BKKDon Level 4

                    Hi,

                     

                    One point that should be made about Canon AWB (White Priority) is that "White Priority aims for a truly neutral color rendition in tungsten light situations".

                     

                    Note it is really only relevant for Tungsten lighting.

                     

                    Straight from the manual "With the standard (Ambience priority), you can increase the intensity of the image’s warm color cast when shooting a tungsten-light scene. If you select (White priority), you can reduce the intensity of the image’s warm color cast."

                     

                    And that's how it works for me.

                     

                    Here is a comparison with AWB & AWB (w), DPP on the left ACR on the right shot under tungsten light and there is a difference in the conversion with DPP being 'cooler':

                     

                    AWB&AWB w.jpg

                    • 7. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      How is your ACR AWB w at the lower right accomplished?

                      • 8. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                        BKKDon Level 4

                        ssprengel wrote:

                         

                        How is your ACR AWB w at the lower right accomplished?

                        Hi,

                         

                        No changes, just imported into ACR as is - the AWB on the top (Ambience Priority) is Temp 3300, Tint +10 and the AWB w on the bottom is Temp 2850, Tint +5. So it seems that there isn't anything special just that the Camera alters the WB to compensate for the Tungsten lighting. I checked the EXIF and the strange thing is that White Priority is listed as "Auto" and Ambience Priority is listed as "Auto Ambience".

                         

                        I think that the conversion is normal for ACR as it has always been 'warm" on Canon ... BTW if I do Auto WB in ACR both images have Temp 2850 and Tint 0. It seems that AWB w is similar to ACR Auto WB.

                         

                        Note also that using AWB/AWB w in daylight has no noticeable difference as they both produce the same Temp/Tint in DPP, LR/ACR and other applications. So it doesn't seem there is any magic except compensating for Tungsten light.

                         

                        But, ABW w does not come out right when there are mixed light sources ... e.g. daylight + LED, Tungsten + Fluorescent etc.

                         

                        So apart from the usual over warm ACR there doesn't seem to be any issues.

                         

                        Don.

                        • 9. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          So you examined an AWB w image and found what color temperature/tint the camera had assigned and used those numbers with Adobe products to get a similar result.

                           

                          Looking at the EXIF/raw-metadata are both AWB numbers recorded in the raw file, and Adobe is choosing the normal one not the White-Priority one?

                          • 10. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                            BKKDon Level 4

                            ssprengel wrote:

                             

                            So you examined an AWB w image and found what color temperature/tint the camera had assigned and used those numbers with Adobe products to get a similar result.

                             

                            Looking at the EXIF/raw-metadata are both AWB numbers recorded in the raw file, and Adobe is choosing the normal one not the White-Priority one?

                            No you misread above.

                             

                            The color temperature in the first paragraph were those assigned by ACR when the images were opened.

                             

                            And the absolute (Canon) value is recorded in the metadata.

                             

                            For ...143.CR2 shot with AWB (White) theEXIF data (Maker) contains an entry of 2777 as the Color Temperature Measured  and in the other -

                            For ...144.CR2 shot with AWB (Ambience)  theEXIF data (Maker) contains an entry of 3200 as the Color Temperature Measured.

                             

                            What this means is that the Camera alters the White Balance itself and write the absolute value to the EXIF which ACR then converts.

                             

                            So as you can see in the EXIF below the AWB (White Priority) is fully supported in ACR (Conversion anyway)

                             

                            AWB w & AWB EXIF.jpg

                            The conversion may not be especially correct but it is in line with ACR Canon conversions we have seen in the past.

                             

                            Don.

                            • 11. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                              Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              >The conversion may not be especially correct but it is in line with ACR Canon conversions we have seen in the past.

                              Just curious whether you used the camera standard profile. The image will never look the same if you didn't and there are subtle differences in white balance behavior between camera profiles.

                               

                              That the AWB (Ambience) setting is supported is no surprise at all since all it does is record a slightly different white balance value in the raw file. Lightroom will read those just fine as you saw. I think the original poster was asking about a similar setting in Lightroom that would mimic this behavior that you could change to even if you set only "auto" in camera. Basically a second "auto" setting in the white balance popup. I don't think this would be especially valuable but that is what I am reading in the original question and the followup.

                              • 12. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                BKKDon Level 4

                                Jao vdL wrote:

                                 

                                >The conversion may not be especially correct but it is in line with ACR Canon conversions we have seen in the past.

                                Just curious whether you used the camera standard profile. The image will never look the same if you didn't and there are subtle differences in white balance behavior between camera profiles.

                                 

                                That the AWB (Ambience) setting is supported is no surprise at all since all it does is record a slightly different white balance value in the raw file. Lightroom will read those just fine as you saw. I think the original poster was asking about a similar setting in Lightroom that would mimic this behavior that you could change to even if you set only "auto" in camera. Basically a second "auto" setting in the white balance popup. I don't think this would be especially valuable but that is what I am reading in the original question and the followup.

                                 

                                Hi,

                                 

                                No in this case it was purely the Adobe Standard, which I wouldn't use myself, just to show that the support is there - personally I use the Camera Faithfull with a Vibrance of +10 which tends to give cleaner colors (I suspect it is the 5D Mark III or even the 7D Mk II profile).

                                 

                                The last line in the post also alluded to the fact that it was in line with previous ACR conversions.

                                 

                                Yes as you say Canon just records a slightly different absolute white balance value and RGGB for the tint.

                                 

                                What the poster says in the original question is "I would get yellow/orange casts sometimes during outdoor shots for some reason.  Now in Canon DPP, I can select AWBw and pop!" is not right because in the same outdoor setting the Color Temp and RGGB values are the same for AWB and AWB w and selecting either in DPP makes absolutely no difference ... AWB w is only for setting the correct white balance (or near) in Tungsten light situations.

                                 

                                Don.

                                • 13. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  So the camera passes one As Shot WB to ACR which it uses reasonably well, but sometimes that AWB As Shot WB is AWB (Ambience) and sometimes it is AWB (White Priority) and the OP wants the choice to use either one just like in DPP?

                                   

                                  What determines whether the camera sets As Shot AWB to Ambience vs White, is it a camera setting the user sets, or is it a decision of the Auto WB function where it tries to see if there is human skin (for example) or not and decides to make it warmer if there is skin and cooler if there isn't?

                                   

                                  BTW, I'm not quibbling about whether the Temp/Tint numbers are identical to what the camera shows/records in the EXIF, since the Temp/Tint display in Adobe products are determined by the RGGB values and the camera profile, not by the single Temp or Tint number the camera records.

                                  • 14. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    >So the camera passes one As Shot WB to ACR which it uses reasonably well, but sometimes that AWB As Shot WB is AWB (Ambience) and sometimes it is AWB (White Priority) and the OP wants the choice to use either one just like in DPP?

                                     

                                    What I understand is that you set either Auto or Auto A on the camera. The OP wants a choice between the two in Lightroom just like in DPP.

                                    • 15. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      If so then the OP has control over which is used, via a camera setting, and that setting should be chosen based on the subject, i.e. if you are shooting a subject with warm-toned skin in warm-toned lighting, you want to use Ambience, but if you’re shooting other things, then perhaps set to White-Priority—probably what I’d leave my camera on all the time if my camera had that setting, and, otherwise, why not just tweak the slider a bit.  The camera isn’t the WB authority, anyway, you are.  You’re shooting raw so that you can change the WB, among other reasons, so change it if you don’t’ like how things look. 

                                       

                                      The reason that Canon shoots Tungsten warm in the first place, is that a colored subject that is the same color as the light (i.e. warm-toned skin and tungsten lighting) will turn neutral (gray) when white-balanced to the light and if people are being shot that’s probably not a good look. 

                                       

                                      As far as why Adobe doesn’t implement AWB-White-Priority, they don’t know what the camera is doing, so how can they replicate it.  Adobe can only use the As Shot WB numbers the camera gives it, not guess what other set of numbers it would have sent had the other setting being used.

                                      • 16. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                        BKKDon Level 4

                                        Hi,

                                         

                                        From both sssprengel and Jao vdl ... the following questions:

                                         

                                        What determines whether the camera sets As Shot AWB to Ambience vs White, is it a camera setting the user sets, or is it a decision of the Auto WB function where it tries to see if there is human skin (for example) or not and decides to make it warmer if there is skin and cooler if there isn't?

                                        • This is a user setting that instructs the camera that you are shooting under tungsten lighting and you want a cooler than 'ambience' white balance. It isn't an exact value but the camera attempts to set the WB (Kelvin) lower than the Tungsten setting (3200) and adjusts the tint.

                                         

                                        The OP wants a choice between the two in Lightroom just like in DPP.

                                        • It may not be possible because it doesn't seem to be an exact setting but instead calculated by the camera in Tungsten light settings and reported as a Kelvin value with RGGB for the tint as you would have if you used manual WB.

                                         

                                        White-Priority—probably what I’d leave my camera on all the time if my camera had that setting, and, otherwise, why not just tweak the slider a bit.  The camera isn’t the WB authority.

                                        • Out of Tungsten lighting conditions the White Priority gives exactly the same result as Ambience. White Priority just 'reduces' the intensity of the warm color cast under Tungsten light but not when multiple color sources are present, e.g. if there is also LED or Fluorescent light present as well as the Tungsten. Anyway in most cases with indoor lighting I would be setting my own WB.

                                         

                                        Adobe can only use the As Shot WB numbers the camera gives it, not guess what other set of numbers it would have sent had the other setting being used.

                                        • And that is exactly what is happening now ... the camera doesn't set a single setting for AWB w (White), just like it doesn't for AWB (Ambience)
                                        • 17. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                          Bruce in Philly Level 1

                                          Lotsa good stuff but.... in no particular order:

                                           

                                          1 - With my Canon cameras of the past, I could select the lighting condition for wb (sun shade, fluorescent, et al,  or AWB)... now with the 5DS, I have two choices of AWB, Ambient (the old) and the new White Priority. I shoot RAW only.   In DPP, I can select any Lightning or either AWB... just like I can in the camera.  The camera does not pass a single set of AWB values and any lighting condition can be selected in DPP although it does pass what setting I had as it will open the pic with that setting applied.  However, it does not matter at all how I set the camera for WB when I shoot it..  The RAW contains all the raw data and the camera or the PC software can select how to process the white balance post RAW.  With RAW, you are not committed in any way to how you set your camera... that one of the many advantages to shooting RAW.   The same capabilities exist in LR except Adobe did not implement the new AWB white priority. 

                                           

                                          2 - When I pull up this particular RAW I get the same yellow/orange cast regardless of the software tool, LR or DPP as they look virtually the same.  For whatever reason, the camera got it wrong... that is not the way the scene looked... this happens occasionally with my old 5D MK II and my new 5DSr.  With DPP, I now can process the Auto WHite Balance differently and using White Priority, the picture looks more accurate.  I know the manual denotes it is for tungsten lighting, but it sure seems to address a common cast problem I have with Canon cameras and I like it.  By the way, the lighting was not mixed or artificial, but later day golden hour so it should have a bit of that glow, but nothing like what came out of that camera.

                                           

                                          3 - Everything else is default... I am using Adobe Standard picture style in LR but it is irrelevant to the cast problem, if I chose Canon Standard it looks pretty much the similar with that yellow/Orange cast.

                                           

                                          4 - As far as what Adobe does:  My understanding is Canon's RAW renderer contains its secrets and they don't share it with anyone. Adobe has to back engineer it and figure out what Canon did and then provide that in the LR software.  RAW conversion is not converting, it is creating, and those white balance settings are applied during this conversion and not in the camera despite what you set the camera for.  That setting is passed in the RAW but the RAW data is not affected.  Then in conversion, DPP or LR reads the setting, and then applies the appropriate algorithms to cook up the wb.  The bad cast is caused either by a "wrong" capture in RAW data or the wb algorithm is flawed. 

                                           

                                          5 -  Anywho....  Canon's DPP gives you the ability to select many WB options in the camera and duplicates them in DPP.  Remember this setting is not applied in the RAW, but in the renderer (converter) and can be re-applied ad nausium in softare later by just using a drop down selector.  Adobe does the same except they left out the new AWB white priority.  They should put it in.

                                           

                                          Peace

                                          Bruce in Philly

                                          • 18. Re: 5DS Auto White Balance AWB w - White Prioity - Supported? When?
                                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            1.        LR cannot implement any Canon or any other manufacturer’s Auto WB function, Ambience, White-Priority, or otherwise.  It merely uses the value reported by the camera and only one set of numbers is reported, the camera keeps the others secret.  LR does have its own Auto WB but it has nothing to do with what the camera does.  DPP has the same algorithms as the camera so it can simulate the same WB guesses as the camera.  Canon doesn’t share its AWB algorithms with Adobe, it only shares the resulting WB numbers, and Adobe uses those.  The only way Adobe could do the same things as Canon is if the two companies merged or otherwise shared their secret algorithms with each other.

                                             

                                            2.      Neither the camera, Canon software, or Adobe software are going to see what your brain registers from your eyes.  They are all guessing what the eye sees using their own methods.

                                             

                                            3.      Ok.

                                             

                                            4.      Adobe doesn’t reverse-engineer anything Canon does—that would be illegal.  It does its own thing.

                                             

                                            5.      Adobe doesn’t do know anything that Canon does so cannot copy the WB algorithms implemented in the camera or DPP.