26 Replies Latest reply on Sep 14, 2015 10:42 AM by astroskoni

    LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files

    astroskoni

      Hi,

       

      I know this issue has been discussed but there is no any solution given so far. I recently became involved in astrophotography as my new camera (Canon 6D) has all these necessary elements for astrophotography. But when I tried to edit some shots I made during my vacations I discovered that there is a serious issue with exported files. There was no apparent noise reduction applied to any exported file. Please see the example below.

       

       

      LR_CC_noise_issue.png

       

      Has anyone here come up with a solution to this problem ?

       

      Thanks in advance for your help and time.

        • 1. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
          rpandita Adobe Employee (Admin)

          Hi astroskoni,

           

          Can you please open the exported image in Photoshop rather than Picasa and check if you can get the same results

           

          Regards

          Rohit

          • 2. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
            astroskoni Level 1

            Hi,

             

            just did it and got the same result. Any help would be really appreciated.

            LR_CC_noise_issue1.png

            • 3. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              There was similar post here: Lightroom cc will not export noise reduction and sharpening changes In this case the user was applying Output Sharpening in the Export module with no 'Image Sizing.' This increases the residual noise in the image making it visible in the exported JPEG file. If you are still seeing noise in the Export JPEG image file with no Output Sharpening (Sharpen For: Unchecked) please post a screen shot of the Detail panel showing Sharpening and Noise Reduction settings.

              • 4. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                astroskoni Level 1

                Hi,

                 

                these are my default export settings

                 

                LR_CC_noise_issue2.png

                and these are the detail settings for the specific image.

                 

                LR_CC_noise_issue3.png

                • 5. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Those are high Noise Reduction settings with a modest amount of Sharpening. That should help make the Exported JPEG look very similar to the Develop module preview. Clearly something is wrong. Try disabling GPU support in LR Preferences and see if the Develop module view looks closer to the Export file and Library module preview.

                  • 6. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                    astroskoni Level 1

                    I have done this already and the result was the same. In the past I had issues (crashes, freezes) with my GPU (AMD R7 260X) which solved by updating to the latest GPU BIOS. Does it matter how high is the noise reduction ?

                    • 7. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      LR Noise Reduction is ISO based, which means at the same settings more NR is applied to high ISO images. There was a similar issue here Canon 6d needs lots of luminance noise reduction at all ISO settings when shooting at ISO 100 with the 6D. This was never resolved. Can you post the CR2 raw file to Dropbox or other file sharing site? That would be the quickest way to determine what's going on.

                      • 8. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                        astroskoni Level 1

                        Canon 6D is considered the best performer among Canon's FF cameras in terms of ISO noise and among the best compared to other brands. However, this is irrelevant to the issue described here.

                         

                        I have uploaded the RAW file here (Google Drive).

                        • 9. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                          Keith_Reeder Level 4

                          There's no debate about the abilities of the 6D at high ISO - we're seeing enough posts along these lines (and I've experienced these issues myself) for me to be clear in my own mind that Lr has an ongoing - though possibly rather arbitrary - bug here.

                           

                          I still see it with my 7D Mk II: as a test I've just output a 1250 ISO file (which isn't "high" ISO, but which is high enough to warrant some NR), and the output file is noisier than the NR preview window in the Detail panel suggests it will be (this with all sharpening disabled, both in the Detail panel and in the Output dialogue).

                          • 10. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                            astroskoni Level 1

                            Hi Keith,

                             

                            I am wondering then, what Adobe is going to do about it. Their software (the most used one by all pro and amateur photographers) has such a serious issue and still nothing from their side. And as I'm reading here, I am not the first having this issue nor the last. It's a problem which is going on for months.

                            • 11. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I used the below settings with your Canon 6D file shot at ISO 2500 and 25 sec. in LR CC 2015.1.1. The Library preview and JPEG Export file look very similar at Fit view with the stars appearing slightly less bright than in the Develop module. I see similar performance with my Canon 5D MKII image files shot at high ISO and long exposure. The Develop module uses a Nearest-Neighbor algorithm, which tends to make the image look sharper and less noisy at <1:1 view size (i.e. Fit view). The Library and Export modules uses a Bicubic algorithm that samples many more neighboring pixels, which can cause noisy images to lose micro-contrast. Normally using sufficient Luminance NR and modest Sharpening will produce near equal Develop and Library module views at <1:1 Zoom. A high ISO, long exposure, star field image is pretty much a worst-case test condition concerning matching of the Develop and Library module views. Some difference can be expected.

                               

                              • 12. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                astroskoni Level 1

                                Hi again and thanks for your help

                                 

                                I did what you suggest with the detail tab. I even lower the brightness settings and added more black but the result isn't even a close match. It's completely disappointing. What's the reason for using different de-noise algorithms for Develop and Export modules ? And one more thing, is it something related only to Canon RAW or to any camera maker ?

                                last.png

                                • 13. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                  Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Please compare the images in Develop at 1:1 zoom with the exported file. You are applying extreme noise reduction values and this leads to the Develop preview not being completely correct in Fit view. You can only judge the noise reduction and sharpening correctly at 1:1 zoom and higher at the more extreme settings. You should really only touch those sliders when you are zoomed 1:1 as you will never get an accurate preview otherwise. The reason the scaling algorithms are different is for sake of speed. The Develop module would be incredibly slow if it used another algorithm as it would increase the amount of calculation necessary by a large amount (at least 4x slower). The Library module has a much simpler job as it can just scale down a jpeg preview while develop needs to render from raw.

                                  • 14. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    > What's the reason for using different de-noise algorithms for Develop and Export modules ?

                                    They use the exact same algorithm. It is the algorithm used for scaling down to the final resolution that is different. Again done for speed sake as the only way to get an accurate zoomed out view is to render the raw file at its complete resolution and then scale down. This would make Lightroom incredibly slow and so what is done is that the raw engine takes a subsampled set of the raw data and calculates on that. This is great for working with all the basic sliders but not the detail panel which effect has to judged at 1:1 and nowhere else. This is the reason why there is a small preview panel right above the sliders.

                                     

                                    >And one more thing, is it something related only to Canon RAW or to any camera maker ?

                                     

                                    This applies to cameras from any maker.

                                    • 15. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                      astroskoni Level 1

                                      Hi Jao,

                                       

                                      thanks for the explanation although it's not quite satisfactory. There is a rule which is our eyes. Usually we want to have what we see. Let's put it like that then. Is there anyway to have the Develop preview image as my final exported file ? I don't care for 1:1 zoom

                                      I won't print anything.

                                      • 16. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        astroskoni wrote:

                                        Is there anyway to have the Develop preview image as my final exported file ? I don't care for 1:1 zoom

                                        I had a chance to try other settings with your CR2 file. If you use 1:3 Zoom view the Develop, Library, and JPEG Export images are virtually identical. It's not ideal, but should be satisfactory for making final adjustments to the image that carry-over to the output from LR. Here's an example showing the original file at 1:3 Zoom next to an Export JPEG file with 1:3 resize (1824 x 1216). Interestingly adding any Output Sharpening actually makes the stars slightly brighter than the CR2 preview. With no Export Output Sharpening the CR2 and Export JPEG look near identical at 1:3 and 1:1 Zoom views:

                                         

                                        Canon 6D Astro 1to3 Zoom View Compare to Export.jpg

                                        • 17. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                          astroskoni Level 1

                                          Thanks for your kind willing to help me Trshaner, I appreciate that.

                                           

                                          Could you please share your details/export settings with me. I like to try it too (although it's naked eye clear not the same).

                                           

                                          Thank you!

                                          • 18. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            > Usually we want to have what we see.

                                            Agreed but the Develop preview is unfortunately not very good at this. When you have to do strong noise reduction it's zoomed out/fit preview just doesn't give you a good approximation of the final output. Interestingly when you switch over to Library, you will see a better preview of the final output there.

                                             

                                            > Let's put it like that then. Is there anyway to have the Develop preview image as my final exported file ? I don't care for 1:1 zoom

                                            I won't print anything.

                                             

                                            As trshaner shows, there might be a zoom size that gives you a better approximation but really the only correct display is at 1:1 zoom. You should really only touch the detail settings while looking at this zoom level or higher. If you want to get a preview of a final export at about screen size, switch to Fit view and go to Library. This should give you a very good idea of the final export. You will also have less of a difference when you are working in Develop on a high resolution (i.e. retina/hiDPI/4k) screen simply because the raw engine will have to calculate a higher resolution version of the image and the Develop preview will consequently be better with respect to noise reduction.

                                            • 19. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                              astroskoni Level 1

                                              Hi Jao,

                                               

                                              thanks again for your reply. I am working on a 1920x1200 24" IPS display. I am not a pro and photography is just my hobby (I don't make any money from it) so my "humble" display serves me just right. I am thinking then that if the amount of noise reduction I see in Develop module is less than the actual, then applying more noise reduction in the develop will eventually create a file that looks in the library like the one I want. Anyway...this is a very naive thought but I don't know what more to do.

                                              • 20. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I wasn't trying to disparage your display. That should serve you just fine and there is nothing wrong with editing on a 1920x1200 display. I was just saying that there is less of a difference on higher resolution displays and so different people experience this issue differently. What looks identical on one display might look different on another because you will actually see something different altogether because Lightroom will calculate more of the file on one. I generally do not see much of a difference because my main displays are 2880x1800 and larger but I know at other displays you can see quite a difference.

                                                 

                                                Your approach of slightly overdoing it in Develop and checking in Library what happens is a pretty good one in this case. You'll probably have to apply more than you think you would need if you are working at Fit zoom level in Develop. With star pictures (any pictures really) I generally optimize noise reduction and sharpening at 1:1 in Develop trying to make sure I make it nice and smooth there but don't introduce artifacts. If the noise is heavy as in high ISO star images, I would then also do a gut check (in Library) at Fit view to see if it works at lower zoom level.

                                                • 21. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  astroskoni wrote:

                                                  Could you please share your details/export settings with me. I like to try it too (although it's naked eye clear not the same).

                                                  The Detail panel settings are in post #11. I used Whites +50, Blacks -50 and WB 3723, 0. I also added Lens Vignetting correction:

                                                  As Next use the 1:3 Zoom view to adjust the Basic panel settings to your liking. Then Export to a 1:3 reduced size JPEG file using the below Export settings and compare it to the original CR2 file at 1:3 view. If anything the Export JPEG file should render the stars slightly brighter and better overall than the CR2 file at 1:3 Zoom view. Don't try to compare it at Fit view. For screen viewing you should resize the image file on Export so that it is small enough to "fit" onscreen in the viewer. Since the Exported file still has noise there will always be some "change" in the image if the viewer has to resize the image file to fit the viewer window.

                                                  • 22. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                    astroskoni Level 1

                                                    Hi again,

                                                    yesterday I decided to give a try to neat image. Well, this is the result after some time fighting with the different parameters in the advanced mode. I believe this is a result closer of what we see in Develop module of Lr. It's a software for denoise only and it's incredibly fast (I own a first generation i5 with 16GB of RAM). One thing I noticed is that it doesn't work well with my GPU. Actually, it renders some parts of the preview image in B&W but besides that, it's a must have I think for people shooting in high ISOs/long exposures. In order to get this result I had to disable completely any denoise and sharpening in Lr (Neat Image does sharpening as well).

                                                    What do you think ? 

                                                    _MG_1364_filtered.jpgjavascript:;

                                                    • 23. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                      Keith_Reeder Level 4

                                                      For high ISO work (although 2500 ISO isn't high ISO - yes, I know that yours is a 25 second exposure) I don't use Lightroom, I use Photo Ninja, which - in addition so being a superb Raw converter - has Noise Ninja 4 built in: to be honest I've always rated Noise Ninja superior to Neat Image, and to have the latest incarnation built in to a brilliant Raw converter is a no-brainer for me.

                                                       

                                                      Just for context, this is a 100% crop from a 4000 ISO 7D Mk II file, converted (at less than default NR) in Photo Ninja, with no additional PP NR applied (remember to click on it for 100%):

                                                       

                                                      7D_Mk_II_4000_ISO.jpg

                                                       

                                                      It's utterly noiseless, without any discernible impact on detail. Yes, it was in more light than you get in astrophotography, but this is typical of the conversion/NR quality that Photo Ninja delivers.

                                                       

                                                      For high ISO work I have no hesitation in recommending Photo Ninja, and no question that it would be my starting point if I was shooting astrophotography.

                                                      • 24. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        astroskoni wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Hi again,

                                                        yesterday I decided to give a try to neat image.

                                                        What do you think ? 

                                                        I think you can get very good results using LR's native tools. After looking at a few similar images (Milky Way) there should be "Billions and Billions of stars," as Carl Sagan was once misquoted! It looks to me that Neat Image has removed many of the stars or reduced their brightness. There's a place for sharpening plugins, but don't think it's required with this image. I used the new Dehaze control at it's maximum 100 setting and + Highlights with +Shadow, which is a bit unconventional! The Dehaze control clearly (pun) makes a difference. You can download the DNG file with my settings here: Dropbox - _MG_1364_TRSHANER Edits.dng

                                                         

                                                        Let me know what you think.

                                                         

                                                        Dropbox - _MG_1364_filtered vs TRS EDITS.jpg

                                                        _MG_1364_filtered vs TRS EDITS.jpg

                                                        • 25. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                          astroskoni Level 1

                                                          Hi Keith,

                                                           

                                                          I will have a look to Photo Ninja as well (I hope there is a demo version available).

                                                          • 26. Re: LR CC doesn't apply noise reduction on exported files
                                                            astroskoni Level 1

                                                            Trshaner,

                                                             

                                                            thanks again for your efforts. Let me download the DNG and try it my own. You are right that Neat Image has removed a lot of stars and the final image has a plastic look. Well honestly I would like to go with Lr only and its denoise function as this is less time (and money) consuming.