19 Replies Latest reply on Oct 11, 2015 6:20 AM by trshaner

    non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?

    louisd79464044 Level 1

      When working in Lightroom overwriting an export is non-destructive. That is, whenever full overwrite of the export file is chosen, still a major important part of the Metadata like Title, subtitle, and Classification is retained in the overwritten export. This means that only a corrected export can be produced when the old export is manually deleted, or when a unique name is chosen/produced.

      This means that correcting a RAW picture and using that for correcting the export automatically is not an option as such. In fact errors can be retained unwanted when using the option overwrite (with or without a warning) during export in LR.

       

      In my view this is actually not in line with the Lightroom philosophy where the RAW is the non-destructive template and the Exports are the affiliates made to tailor its applications.

      Unlike the fact that Lightroom does not allow copies of RAW pictures (a save as of a file is just refused in the catalog), but does enable copies of exports (with different names). This is in sheer contrast with the fact that deliberately corrected RAWs are just not fully exported as intended with an overwrite.

       

      I am interested to hear opinions of other Lightroom users to flag this, in my view, weard overwrite that does not overwrite feature.

        • 1. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
          dj_paige Level 9

          While I can't confirm your problem description, you might want to file an actual bug report.

          Photoshop Family Customer Community

          • 2. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
            deepakg1988 Adobe Employee

            Hi Louisd,

             

            Do you mean when you again overwrite an existing image which was exported from Lightroom. The metadata is not changed for the new exported image.?

             

            Thanks

            • 3. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
              louisd79464044 Level 1

              I have been discussing the treat with Adobe Technical support, who eventually realised the problem was not mine only, but generic.

              Let me try to state step by step what I mean.

               

              Start TR and choose a picture RAW, RAW with xml or JPG. whatever you like

              Export it

              Go back to the picture and change metadata including the name, classification (less or more stars), and sub-title

              export the picture again with the option 'overwrite (with or without warning that does not make a difference)

              When looking into the overwritten Export you will see the metadata are partly not changed. Especially classification, title and subtitle.will have been retained.

               

              If you cannot copy that situation I am curious to hear too.

              • 4. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                dj_paige Level 9

                I can't confirm your problem description because I haven't tried and haven't looked (I am at work now and don't have Lightroom here). I am not claiming it happens differently for me.

                • 5. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                  louisd79464044 Level 1

                  By the way. The export copy will have a remark icon asking to choose between overwriting from disk or else, but in my case both does not give an overwrite of the 3 items mentioned either.

                  • 6. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                    louisd79464044 Level 1

                    HI, it got a bit ilent since Monday but the problem is still there. I think it is a bug tob e fixed, actually

                     

                     

                     

                    Thanks,

                     

                     

                     

                    Louis

                     

                     

                     

                    Van: deepakgahlot 

                    Verzonden: maandag 28 september 2015 20:58

                    Aan: Louis Dederen <louis.dederen@planet.nl>

                    Onderwerp:  non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?

                     

                     

                    created by deepakgahlot <https://forums.adobe.com/people/deepakgahlot>  in Photoshop Lightroom - View the full discussion <https://forums.adobe.com/message/8008379#8008379>

                    • 7. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                      Bob Somrak Level 5

                      Are you looking at the re-exported file in Lightroom.  If so you have to select the file and do a "Read Metadata from File" after the second export.  Lightroom automatically updates the Develop update for the file but not the metadata.  It will show a metadata conflict arrow.  Don't know if this is a bug or the way it is designed.

                      • 8. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        louisd79464044 wrote:

                        Start TR and choose a picture RAW, RAW with xml or JPG. whatever you like

                        Export it

                        Go back to the picture and change metadata including the name, classification (less or more stars), and sub-title

                        export the picture again with the option 'overwrite (with or without warning that does not make a difference)

                        When looking into the overwritten Export you will see the metadata are partly not changed. Especially classification, title and subtitle.will have been retained.

                        I can confirm what you are seeing:

                         

                        1) Export raw file to JPEG and confirm metadata fields match.

                        2) Change the raw file EXIF Title and Caption metadata fields.

                        3) Export raw file to JPEG and choose 'Overwrite' file when prompted.

                        4) Title and Caption metadata fields in the JPEG are not updated with the changes.

                        • 9. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                          Bob Somrak Level 5

                          Todd,

                           

                          The fields in the JPEG file are updated/overwritten for me  (OS X Yosemite, Lr6.1.1/cc) but Lightroom doesn't read these updates as it does any develop changes.  If I Read Metadata from File the the  JPEG is Lightroom gets updated.  I was using Title and Caption for my test.

                          • 10. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Bob Somrak wrote:

                            The fields in the JPEG file are updated/overwritten for me  (OS X Yosemite, Lr6.1.1/cc) but Lightroom doesn't read these updates as it does any develop changes.  If I Read Metadata from File the the  JPEG is Lightroom gets updated.  I was using Title and Caption for my test.

                            Bob, if another application had over-written the file then I wouldn't expect LR to update the metadata changes. When LR detects a file has been changed in another application the filmstrip and Grid images will be flagged with an Up-Arrow icon. This allows the user to make the decision on whether these changes should be updated or over-written with the LR catalog data. That makes perfectly good sense.

                             

                            IMHO–If LR made the changes to the file, and that file is still in the catalog, then LR should automatically update the file's metadata. It's a simple code change to read and update the file's metadata rather than set the Up-Arrow flag. Is there any situation where you would not want LR to do this update automatically?

                             

                            • 11. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                              Bob Somrak Level 5

                              I agree Lightroom should read the metadata the same as it reads the the develop changes if it was Lightroom doing the changing.  Lightroom automatically updates the JPEG if Lightroom or another program changes the pixels.  Problem is, with the metadata I don't know if there is a way for Lightroom to determine which program has changed the metadata so it will update only if it is changed within Lightroom.

                               

                               

                               

                              Edit:  In this scenario of Lightroom OVERWRITING the file than Lightroom definitely SHOULD reread both the pixel and metadata changes as Lightroom is doing the overwriting.  I consider this a bug.

                              • 12. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Bob Somrak wrote:

                                Problem is, with the metadata I don't know if there is a way for Lightroom to determine which program has changed the metadata so it will update only if it is changed within Lightroom

                                Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you choose 'Overwrite' when Exporting a file doesn't it change the existing file metadata to what is in the LR catalog? So it really wouldn't matter if another program such as Bridge has made changes–It's going to be changed back to what LR has in its catalog. You made that choice when you chose 'Overwrite' in the Export module. If you are concerned that another program may have overwritten the previously exported file then the time to "check it" is before committing to the Export, correct?

                                 

                                I do metadata editing in both Bridge and LR and keep them in sync as follows. Anytime a metadata change is made in Bridge the file(s) metadata must be read in LR (Read Metadata from File) before making any further metadata changes inside LR. After making metadata changes to a file in LR you need to apply CTRL + S (Save Metadata to File) to write the changes or Bridge won't see them.

                                • 13. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                  Bob Somrak Level 5

                                  Agree, I just didn't explain it well.

                                  • 14. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    This may explain the mystery as to why some users are seeing the up-arrow icon on image files that have only been edited inside LR. Makes me wonder if the same thing could be happening with specific metadata updates when using 'Automatically write changes into XMP.'

                                    • 15. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                      louisd79464044 Level 1

                                      Thanks all. What I like to add is that both the icon on an export in an LR library and the Pop-up shown by trshaner 5 screens back (giving the choice to read/overwrite from disk or file ) do not change the metadata when it concerns an overwritten Export. Actually both choices give the same result: 'nothing changed' !

                                      • 16. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                        Bob Somrak Level 5

                                        I have tried this with ratings, labels, and the caption field and they DO get written to the reexported file when you choose OVERWRITE in the export menu.  The problem is if the originally exported file is reimported into Lightroom than this files ratings, labels and caption are not automatically updated on the second export/overwrite.  Any develop changes are automatically updated.

                                        • 17. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          louisd79464044 wrote:

                                           

                                          Thanks all. What I like to add is that both the icon on an export in an LR library and the Pop-up shown by trshaner 5 screens back (giving the choice to read/overwrite from disk or file ) do not change the metadata when it concerns an overwritten Export. Actually both choices give the same result: 'nothing changed' !

                                          It's working on my Windows 7 LR 2015.1.1 system.

                                           

                                          1) Make specific metadata edits to a file, such as Caption and Ratings.

                                          2) Export that file to any Image Format except 'Original.'

                                          3) Make changes to the 'original file's' metadata and Export again with the same settings.

                                          4) When prompted with the popup 'Problem Exporting File' choose 'Overwrite.'

                                          5) Back in the Library module click on the Up-Arrow icon and choose 'Import Settings from Disk.' You can also right-click on the JPEG file and choose Metadata> Read Metadata from File. The changes made to the original file's metadata should now appear in the re-exported file.

                                           

                                          The primary issue is that LR should update the Export file's metadata automatically in the LR catalog since it is modifying the file.....not an external editor.

                                          • 18. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                            louisd79464044 Level 1

                                            Hi,

                                             

                                            I can imagine the above works, but I do want to make non-destructive changes only, and not those mentioned in line 3:

                                             

                                            2) Export that file to any Image Format except 'Original.'

                                            3) Make changes to the 'original file's' metadata and Export again with the same settings.

                                             

                                            That's the reason I prefer Xml files next to the originals.

                                             

                                            If this means I am forced to make changes in the metadata of the originals (meaning I get destructive loss of originals and a new file date), is against non-destructive policy. Although changes to meta-data only may look non-destructive, I does not look like that as it changes the file date, meaning it is overwritten anyway.

                                            • 19. Re: non-destructive export or eroor-archive in Lightroom ?
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              louisd79464044 wrote:

                                               

                                              That's the reason I prefer Xml files next to the originals.

                                               

                                              If this means I am forced to make changes in the metadata of the originals (meaning I get destructive loss of originals and a new file date), is against non-destructive policy. Although changes to meta-data only may look non-destructive, I does not look like that as it changes the file date, meaning it is overwritten anyway.

                                              Original raw files are not written to by LR. Metadata changes can only be written to the LR catalog or XMP sidecar files, if that option is checked in the LR Catalog settings.