27 Replies Latest reply on Oct 31, 2015 12:03 PM by PaulTracy

    black and white

    stewartm21538923

      When i open lightroom, the histogram instead of being the usual grey in the neutral tones its now an off brown tone.. When I click onto Black and white in develop, the image is not in black and white, but more an off brown tone.  This has just started happening, My screen is calibrated ok, the grey tones in the lightroom interface are grey.. its only in the photograph and the histogram.

       

      Capture.JPG

       

      I have not updated my graphics drivers or software. Perhaps a windows update? 
      in the Black and white mode the image should appear in grey scale, it is not split toned, it is not toned using tone curves

       

      Has anyone else experienced this?  Can anyone offer a fix?

        • 1. Re: black and white
          Bob Somrak Level 5

          Histogram color indicates a bad monitor calibration.  The histogram should be neutral gray.

          • 2. Re: black and white
            Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

            You have a broken monitor profile. (could be caused by an OS update, where a maufactorer's bad profile has replace the one you created)

            Recalibrating should fix the problem.

            • 3. Re: black and white
              stewartm21538923 Level 1

              this isnt monitor calibration.  all other 'greys' are grey.  this litterally just happened, everything was fine, then today when i opened my lightroom, this was the case.. if this was monitor calibration then every grey would be out, not just the picture and histogram...

              • 4. Re: black and white
                stewartm21538923 Level 1

                even if i open the picture in Photoshop its ok 'greys' but lightroom is being weird

                • 5. Re: black and white
                  Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                  Lightroom is more picky about the monitor profile than Photoshop, and what you're describing has been reported before.

                  The answer is always to recalibrate.

                  • 6. Re: black and white
                    deepakg1988 Adobe Employee

                    Hi,

                     

                    You need a calibration device to make a specific monitor profile for your monitor.If the present profile is not working and you don't have a calibration device set the profiles sRGB as a temporary solution. Do not use profiles that come with either the monitor or video cards as they inevitably have problems. I don't know what "natural color pro" is but if it is doing anything to the colors of your monitor disable it, let the OS handle color until you get a decent calibration device and software..lots around, Spdyer Pro being one of the best, but just do a google search.


                    Thanks

                    • 7. Re: black and white
                      stewartm21538923 Level 1

                      I seriously dont understand what it is with "calibrate your monitor" NO OTHER Programe or visual aspect of my machine is effected.
                      If I calibrate my screen to render this buff colour as grey it will surely throw out every other colour i ever display..?

                      Look at the picture I posted....  the lightroom interface greys are fine.. the menues, when i brows the web and look at colour test charts and the like. NOTHING on my PC is effected other than how Lightroom displays photographs and how lightroom renders greys in the histogram . so how can recalibrating my screen be the solution... when nothing other than lightroom has failed?

                       

                      Could it be graffics card / driver related?   I use 2 of these http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/5000/5770 cross fired.
                      I have made no system changes to my pc, i have not updated drivers or changed hardware.  One day pictures in Lightroom just went brown

                       

                      Someone  said this issue has been posted before, can you show me where on the forum it was please?  so i can test my problem against theirs and see if their solution ?

                      What else can it be other than screen calibration... ?

                      • 8. Re: black and white
                        Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional
                        how can recalibrating my screen be the solution... when nothing other than lightroom has failed?

                        Read post #5. This problem has been covered several times on this forum, like here:

                        Problem with color cast. Brown Histogram?

                        • 9. Re: black and white
                          Phil323uk Level 2

                          You should be checking your calibration on a regular basis anyway.

                          Checking your calibration will only cost you a few minutes of your time.

                           

                          For a brief technical explanation read the second paragraph here.

                          http://www.lightroomqueen.com/corrupted-monitor-profile/

                          • 10. Re: black and white
                            stewartm21538923 Level 1

                            So i Knicked my Dads colour Monkey thing and let it do lots of flashing and colour stuff...

                             

                            Everything seems to be working - wish i understood how only one aspect of one display issue in one programe could be affected...

                            Still all works now - thanks for the help and ewirdness

                            • 11. Re: black and white
                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              stewartm21538923 wrote:

                               

                              I seriously dont understand what it is with "calibrate your monitor" NO OTHER Programe or visual aspect of my machine is effected.

                               

                              All right. If you really want to know...

                               

                              Most people think monitor calibration is only about adjusting the monitor's behavior, and that it therefore should affect everything equally. It is that too, but that's only a small part of it. In reality two very different processes are rolled into one operation here: calibration and profiling.

                               

                              Calibration is the first step, and that's the part most people understand: white point, neutral color balance relative to that white point, gamma, black point. Once the calibration is done, that's how the monitor now behaves.

                               

                              Then a new set of measurements creates the monitor profile. That's a standard icc profile, describing a color space - in this case the color space of your monitor in its now calibrated state. This description is very detailed, and includes not only the above, but also the exact position of the three primaries as well as the monitor's precise tone response curve (which does in fact not follow an idealized gamma curve).

                               

                              The profile doesn't actually change anything, it's just a description of how it is.

                               

                              Now here's the deal: Just like you would convert a file from, say, Adobe RGB to sRGB, a color managed application does the same thing for what it sends to the display. It converts from the file's source profile and into the monitor profile, and these converted values are sent, on the fly, to the monitor. This way the file is very accurately corrected for your monitor, much more accurately than you could achieve just by adjusting the monitor.


                              Color management only has one basic requirement: each profile has to be an accurate description of the color space it refers to. A bad monitor profile isn't, and that's why the display goes all wrong. Furthermore, different applications may use different parts of the profile, and in different ways, and so react differently.

                               

                              And applications without color management at all just ignore the profile completely and are blissfully unaffected by any of this. They just send the file numbers straight through without any correction.

                              • 12. Re: black and white
                                stewartm21538923 Level 1

                                Thanks for all the help guys and the explanation.. but the battle continues...

                                 

                                I used a  Colour Monkey x-rite calibration kit (that i borrowed from my Dad) one of these..
                                X-Rite ColorMunki Display Calibrator for Monitors, Projectors and Tablets - CMUNDIS: Amazon.co.uk: Software 

                                but now I  have further issues.  The curse of the cream histogram is solved, but now i have a warm hue to everything dark and a green twang to my whites.  I initially thought it may be "seeing what im not used to" and thus my brain isn't adjusted for this colour, but having slept on it and contacted photographs whom i follow about how their images are presented it would seem that my monitor is NOT calibrated correctly.

                                 

                                The best example i can give is this...
                                https://500px.com/vulturelabs

                                 

                                I have asked Jay directly about the tone of his images and explained my problems, his images are monochrome with no tone to them at all; yet now when I view them they appear Brown and 'toned'


                                This is one of mine Thames View | Flickr And it too appears to be brown. 


                                I use 2 x AMD Radion 5770 Graphics cards cross fired, to run a Dell 1907fp screen, yes its old, but it works fine Last week I had no problems at all.. since buff histogram everything had gone doo-lally.

                                System restore wont work as windows doesn't save information like this in its images..

                                Other than smashing things up and launching my computer and screen out of the window can anyone offer a solution?

                                 

                                Stew

                                • 13. Re: black and white
                                  JoeKostoss Level 4

                                  I'm not an expert on this subject, but for the record, the linked images look fine on my computer; I do not see the browns or greens you describe.  I'll let the other experts follow up on this; however, I suspect that your monitor hardware may be in trouble.  As you mentioned, it is old.

                                  • 14. Re: black and white
                                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    The posted examples are fine.

                                     

                                    I'm not familiar with the Munki, but it sounds like something's still wrong with the profile. Run it again.

                                     

                                    Photoshop is not happy with dual video cards and this is known to cause all sorts of problems. Maybe Lightroom reacts the same way. Also try to uncheck Graphics Processor from Lr preferences to eliminate that.

                                    • 15. Re: black and white
                                      Phil323uk Level 2

                                      Your Thames view looks good to me, makes me want to stroll down to the river this lunchtime with my camera.


                                      My only thoughts on your problem are, a problem with calibration, or your monitor has had it.


                                      Also have a look at your control panel settings for your graphics card, make sure you have no unwanted settings or adjustments turned on.


                                      I can only suggest you retry calibration (Make sure you have reset your monitor to its factory settings, if you haven't done so already).


                                      If that brings no joy. Could you try your monitor on another system, or try another monitor on your system?




                                       


                                      • 16. Re: black and white
                                        stewartm21538923 Level 1

                                        Thanks, do the images look at all toned, they are B&W only and not toned, the same with the 500px link i posted?? they are Black and white not brown??

                                        • 17. Re: black and white
                                          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                                          Looks fine on my monitor too.

                                          But the image is in Adobe RGB, and you should always use sRGB for web images, although in this case it probably won't make make a big difference since the image is desaturated.

                                          Web browsers have very limited color management, and only understand sRGB.

                                          • 18. Re: black and white
                                            Phil323uk Level 2

                                            I'm at work on a non calibrated display and they look neutral to me. so yes no tone.

                                            • 19. Re: black and white
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              stewartm21538923 wrote:

                                               

                                              I used a  Colour Monkey x-rite calibration kit (that i borrowed from my Dad) one of these..
                                              X-Rite ColorMunki Display Calibrator for Monitors, Projectors and Tablets - CMUNDIS: Amazon.co.uk: Software

                                              but now I  have further issues.  The curse of the cream histogram is solved, but now i have a warm hue to everything dark and a green twang to my whites.  I initially thought it may be "seeing what im not used to" and thus my brain isn't adjusted for this colour, but having slept on it and contacted photographs whom i follow about how their images are presented it would seem that my monitor is NOT calibrated correctly.

                                              There are a number of possibilities:

                                               

                                              1) Most uncalibrated monitors are adjusted too bright and too high in color temperature (toward Blue). With a proper of 100-120 cd/m2, 6500 color temperature, 2.2 Gamma display calibration it may indeed now appear to have "brown" toning. Your eyes become "accustomed" to the overly high color temperature (Blue) and it takes quite a while to "adjust" to what you are seeing as being closer to reality. I experienced this same issue the first time I used a monitor calibrator.

                                               

                                              2) Most Web browsers are not color managed and can only properly display sRGB images. That said if the Thames image you uploaded was converted to B&W in LR using the Basic> Treatment> 'Black & White' mode button then it shouldn't make a difference. The contrast may appear changed if you used Adobe RGB color profile, but it still should look B&W. This most likely is NOT the issue.

                                               

                                              3) You monitor may be "aging" or have improperly adjusted panel controls, which prevents it from achieving the proper color temperature at high brightness settings. The X-Rite ColorMunki Display Calibrator  is an entry-level product that doesn't have provisions for measuring and setting the actual Luminance level. Lacking that most users will leave the monitor set at too high of a brightness level (higher than 100-120 cd/M2). Try lowering the monitor's Brightness control to a lower level and then recalibrate with the ColorMunki.

                                               

                                              4) A heavily overcast sky color temperature is 9,000-10,000K (Very Blue) so the "minds eye" is playing a trick. You remember seeing a very Blue scene rendering in real life, but a B&W image can only render using the calibration white point (6500K). The below image is a screen capture with LEFT image converted to Grayscale (B&W) as you rendered it in LR and the RIGHT image is in RGB color with -5 Temp and +5 Tint WG correction. You can also use the Split Toning panel for more control to provide different correction for Highlights versus Shadows. You'll need to Export the LR B&W image to convert it to RGB to allow color toning.

                                               

                                              NOTE: A print of the Thames B&W image file will appear different dependent on the color temperature of the room lighting (2,700-5,500K typical).

                                              Thames With Color Temp Change.jpg

                                              • 20. Re: black and white
                                                PaulTracy Level 1

                                                Recalibration alone may not be sufficient. Here is what worked for me:

                                                 

                                                This has been a fascinating thread to read as I had suffered with Lightroom colors being different than the colors I see when I load images in something else, including as mentioned, Photoshop. I have calibrated my monitor and continue to do so but after many rounds of smashing my head into my computer I finally resolved this issue ... at least on my machine.

                                                 

                                                The problem is that windows also uses color profiles and I think Lightroom is applying a different color profile to images after the operating system has already applied one to the overall monitor. I agreed with your original observation that its unacceptable for the Lightroom interface to be grey but your image is not grey. After all ... monitor color calibration should make every app look correct not just the color managed ones.

                                                 

                                                It turns out that my windows color profile settings did not match the profiles being used by my color calibration software nor those used by Lightroom. After calibration, the calibration software creates an ICC profile (.ICM file) and stores that somewhere. Some calibration software auto load that into your graphics card on startup. I put a stop to that. Instead, open the windows color management app in the control panel (just type in color management in the search bar in win 10). On the Devices tab you will see the ICC profiles associated with your device. Choose the one that the calibration software created and set that as the default ICC profile. Check the box that says "use my settings for this device". Now click over to the Advanced tab. For Device profile choose the same ICC profile you selected as default on the Devices tab. For all other items you can select System default as appropriate for now. Plenty time to mess with these later if you want. :-)

                                                BTW: In Photoshop color settings I choose Monitor Color. Photoshop has the option to use either Adobe (ACE) or Microsoft (ICM) for color management but I am using the ACE option and have not tried ICM setting here.

                                                 

                                                The end result of all of this is that my monitor is calibrated and all colors look as expected in every app whether color managed or not.

                                                 

                                                Your mileage may vary etc. I am running Windows 10 - 64bit.

                                                 

                                                Calibration2.jpg

                                                • 21. Re: black and white
                                                  D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  PaulTracy wrote

                                                   

                                                  I'm not sure where to start on this one...

                                                   

                                                  No, Windows does not use color profiles. Read my post # 11 again - carefully. There is no need, ever, to change anything in the Color Management "Advanced" tab.

                                                   

                                                  all colors look as expected in every app whether color managed or not.

                                                   

                                                  That's a big problem right there. If all applications look the same, that means you have managed to disable color management in the apps that have it. They're not supposed to look the same, you're missing the whole point. Read my post # 11 yet one more time.

                                                   

                                                  Monitor Color in Photoshop does just that - disables display color management. Not only that, but it makes a complete mess of everything as you go - all original profiles discarded and no way to go back. Good luck with that.

                                                   

                                                  In other words you have a system now stripped of all remnants of a color managed workflow, and no references to what the files are supposed to look like.

                                                  • 22. Re: black and white
                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    YIKES.....t

                                                     

                                                    • 23. Re: black and white
                                                      wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                                                      In my case- I calibrated with a Spyder colorimeter, and the colors would never look correct.

                                                      Then I checked my Nvidia Graphic Card in Control Panel and changed one toggle option to- " Other applications control color settings"

                                                      Now color is great!

                                                      What was happening- the OS would load my Spyder Monitor profile, THEN Nvidia would over-ride that with the NVidia settings! so I never got to see the screen with the Spyder profile. And I have my Spyder profile selected and default, as in trshaner's post-22 above.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      ScreenShot191.jpg

                                                      • 24. Re: black and white
                                                        PaulTracy Level 1

                                                        D Fosse, I read your post multiple times. It was instructive and quite informative. However respectfully I still disagree with one of your assertions.

                                                         

                                                        I am not sure I agree with the statement that if everything looks the same then I have removed all aspects of color management and I have therefore missed the point.

                                                         

                                                        Lets take a simple example that matches the original posters situation. Lets suppose I programmatically create a JPEG file that is 100% full white. That image should appear white when I look at it on my monitor whether I use MsPaint (not color managed) Photoshop (color managed) IE (not color managed) or Chrome (Color Managed). the only time I believe that it is appropriate for that image to be rendered as something other than pure white is if my rendering intent changes. In other words when I get ready to print for example ... I fully expect Photoshop to apply the ICC profile for my printer so that the colors I see on my screen match what I will see when I print it. Therefore as I edit the image I am assured that when I print it, it will look the same way it looked on my screen in PhotoShop. In this case I fully expect that an image in my color managed app will look different than in a non-color managed app because only the color managed app understands the rendering intent. If my rendering intent is the very display space that I am currently working on then why should my images look different in a color managed app than a non color managed app? Think about this ... if my intent is to distribute my image electronically then the best I can hope for is that the customer's monitor is calibrated. If their monitor is calibrated they should see the image as I intended it to look even if they are not using a color-managed app to view it. In fact very likely they will not be using one. Imagine if I used photoshop to edit this smiley face and I got the yellows just right then I shipped the jpg to my engineering team and they deploy that icon in a messaging app where it sadly renders as burnt orange on everyone's computer. The image I see on the editing surface must reflect the image eventually displayed on the rendering surface or else this whole thing falls apart. So yes, I expect that images I see on my editing surface in photoshop will look the same on any app, on any calibrated computer screen, if my rendering intent is the monitor display surface.

                                                         

                                                        trshaner did not actually suggest anything different than I had suggested ... choose the ICC profile generated by your calibrator, check the box to use these settings, and use the system defaults as they exist on the advanced tab. The only difference is the suggestion that Windows has no color management. Everyone likes to hate on Microsoft, including me ... but color management has been a part of windows OS going back many years. So I have not rendered my color managed apps dead. My color profile setting in windows were just not using my calibrated ICM file but photoshop was. Changing this was enough to have everything as expected when my rendering intent is a computer screen. At least for me.

                                                        • 25. Re: black and white
                                                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Your conclusions are based on faulty assumptions. This is nowhere near as complicated as you're trying to make it. You're chasing red herrings.

                                                           

                                                          All Windows does is make profiles available for applications that have any use for them. These color managed applications go to the OS and ask, "which profile do you have as system default for this device?" And the OS goes "Hang on. Here you go". So then the application loads that, and converts the data accordingly, and sends these converted data out to the device in question.

                                                           

                                                          All color management is performed by the application. Windows does not do anything other than mind the store.

                                                           

                                                          Color management isn't difficult. It can be summed up as "source profile > destination profile", and that's basically it. As long as you have these two profiles, and each is an accurate description of the color space it references, it comes out right. The problem is when those data hit applications that don't know what icc profiles are. Then the color management chain breaks down and the result is wrong.

                                                           

                                                          The "Monitor Color" setting in Photoshop is a case in point. If source and destination profiles are the same, no conversion happens, nothing changes. That's known as a "null transform". No change - that's the very definition of no color management. Right? The RGB values in the file just go straight through to the display without any correction.

                                                           

                                                          Forget the calibration tables, the monitor adjustment (see #11 again). Yes, it can be confusing that these are often stored inside the profile for convenience, but it's a cuckoo's egg, it doesn't really belong there. It's just handy. The calibration is not part of the color management chain.

                                                          • 26. Re: black and white
                                                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            PaulTracy wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Everyone likes to hate on Microsoft, including me ... but color management has been a part of windows OS going back many years.

                                                            It's very confusing and few people really understand how it works, including Jeff Schewe. Go to the below link and 'Cancel' out of the 'Authentication' popup to open the LULA forum post:

                                                             

                                                            Win Color Management Advanced tab?

                                                            • 27. Re: black and white
                                                              PaulTracy Level 1

                                                              D Fosse, I don't disagree with you. You are correct and perhaps you have even stated what I was trying to say but you may have done so more clearly. We may be at the point where we are splitting hairs over details or wording.

                                                               

                                                              Thanks.