12 Replies Latest reply on Nov 17, 2015 6:57 PM by Rick Gerard

    can anyone duplicate this matting issue?

    ebluBeta Level 1

      I've done this millions of times, and recently it's become broken.

       

      how to invoke the issue:

      1. new comp with footage

      2. duplicate the footage, add a new solid layer over it, with a mask. Animate that mask.

      3. set the copied layer of footage to use the solid as it's alpha matte.

       

      what happens:

      the footage layer that uses the solid as a matte, scales itself to fit the bounds of the matte. There's no scaling animated, I'm just trying to re-matte in some detail that I'm obscuring with other layers. But the render goes all squirrley. see the image for what I mean.

       

      so:

      1. can anyone reproduce this?

      2. quitting, purging all emery, restarting has no effect. CC 2014 did it. But CC 2015 seems to do it A LOT MORE.  Any other ideas?  file type? Don't use the 3d tracker?

      3. I cannot believe that I am the first person to run into this issue.

       

      Screen Shot 2015-11-17 at 11.58.04 am.png

        • 1. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I cannot duplicate your issue. I'm not sure which layers are involved. Layer 1 is the mask, Layer 2 named rematte is the lady carrying bags, Which layer is the background that is supposed to be aligned? Is it layer 9? The only thing I can think of is that the in point of the two shots don't match and that the camera is moving. What does it look like when you turn off the track matte and set the blend mode of layer 2 to difference? If the shots are lined up then the frame would be black.

           

          What happens if you turn off all of the other layers? What happens if you duplicate comp 1 and then delete all layers except the 1, 2, and 9?

          • 2. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
            ebluBeta Level 1

            Hi Rick,

            in the image there are two layers exposing their position and scale. one is called: 1.mov, and the other is called rematte.

            those two layers are the exact same movie file.

            rematte has a solid over top of it. That solid has it's mask, actor point, position, and scale exposed. the solid, is being used as the rematte layer's alpha matte. This is a standard workflow for matting.

             

            as you can clearly see in the image. 1.mov and rematte, have the same scale and position, and strangely they are not being drawn that way. what is happening, is that rematte is being scaled to fit the boundary rectangle of it's alpha matte layer's alpha.

            this is incorrect behavior. in 2014 it was spotty and could be fixed by clearing the cache and restarting AE. Now, in 2015... you cannot fix it. AE doesn't do it all the time, but when it does do it, it tends to get worse and worse.

            • 3. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Try turning off the track matte and set the blend mode to difference. I cannot reproduce your error or see anything wrong except for the possible timing issue. What happens if you scale the matte layer? There's nothing in a track matte that would effect a scale of a layer below. What do you see if you select all 3 layers and press the U key twice to reveal all modified properties?

              • 4. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                ebluBeta Level 1

                good lord man.

                would a video do it?

                if I posted a video of this for you, would that show the issue better?

                I've told you what is happening, provided an image, explained it in detail, included the layers, and their critical values (Position and scale), and you are willing to completely invalidate my expertise in this area.

                how is this helpful?

                I have 17 years of working with AE every single day. I know what I am talking about. what I have told you is precisely what is happening.

                 

                in THAT image, you are looking at the exact same frame from the exact same movie file overlaid on top of itself. no difference at all in scaling, position, rotation. No effects. no distortions of any kind.

                ITS THE SAME THING. there is no timing issue. if I crept forward a few frames, it would pop right back to the correct size, for a single frame.

                • 5. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                  Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Hey, I'm just trying to help. I am not trying to invalidate your explanation, just offer troubleshooting techniques.

                   

                  I cannot reproduce your bug or figure anyway to get it to happen. If you turn the track matte on and off does the image move? If it does then there's another property someplace that is causing it and I have no idea what it is. I understand your frustration. Pressing the "u" Key twice reveals all modified properties of the layer. I use that to troubleshoot all the time and thought it was a good suggestion. I don't need a video, I don't need another screenshot, I was just suggesting some troubleshooting steps. There should be absolutely nothing in a matte that changes scale and position so I was just trying to help you find the problem. If this happened to me the very first thing I would do would be to turn off the track matte and set the blend mode of the top copy of the video to difference to see if the image lines up. I would then turn the track matte back on to see if things jump to a new position.  If they did I would delete the top copy of the video, duplicate the bottom copy and move it up under the track matte. If the problem remains I would file bug report.

                   

                  I do not have any other suggestions.

                  • 6. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                    ebluBeta Level 1

                    Rick,

                    look closely at the image. see the details. Every thing you suggest is blown out of the water by the image itself.

                     

                    1. the image surrounded by the purple mask, is compressed, scaled. thinner than it should be.

                    2. the image outside of the purple mask is NOT scaled, compressed, thinner than it should be.

                    3. in both images you can plainly see a portion of the bench, the christmas tree in the window, parts of the bags the woman is holding.

                    4. plainly obvious, the purple mask is in the Royal Blue Solid 1.

                    5. rematte is using Royal Blue Solid 1 as a traveling matte.

                     

                    there is no way, anyone not versed in after effects, could fail to notice these things. upon glancing at these details it is plain that one of the two images is scaled in some way, and should not be:

                     

                    6. the two exposed movie layers (the ones that are obviously movies by their icons, and that have both position and scale values visible) are obviously synced in time. no question. as evidenced by the tiny little black triangles that denote inPoint on both layers.

                    7. the scale and potision of both of those layers are exactly the same.

                     

                    I do not understand how the questions that occurred to you were not immediately dismissed once you looked closely at the image. This is very basic stuff. You can't work in After Effects and not learn these things.

                     

                    The frustration I am having is twofold:

                    1. I am being badgered about things that are obvious. I know what I am seeing, and I have completely explained it. I know what After effects is doing wrong. As I have explained before, and you seem to be ignoring: After effects is producing this visual glitch in a stuttered way. it works for a few frames, then it doesn't. Slowly AE fills the entirety of it's image cache with the incorrect rendering, but It starts out doing it correctly in at least a few frames.  in other words: YOU ARE WASTING MY TIME SUGGESTING THAT I'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG, and this is obvious from the image. and despite the obviousness, I've spelled it out in more ways than one, just to help you get up to speed. I'm working now. actively trying to get AE to do, what it was built to do.

                     

                    2. This is a bug, there's no question. I am down to two culprits:  My graphics card, or AE. Despite your inability to duplicate the issue, the possibility that it's the card are minimal, at best. Every time I try to engage with adobe or the community about a critical issue like this, I get shouted down. I'm not a bad guy, I'm not smearing Adobe's good name, I'm trying to get help with a deal breaker problem. I have had nothing but incredibly negative feedback about any issue I have ever had with an Adobe product. It's unprofessional, it's personally insulting, and Rick, this one is directed at you: it does no good when someone tries to refute the problem because they don't understand it. I provided enough information that the issue is self evident.

                     

                    I'm not taking a poll. I'm looking in the haystack for needles. I came here to hear from people who HAVE this problem, or who know about it (because let's face it, adobe doesn't like to communicate anything.)

                    • 7. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                      Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      I'm about done with this conversation. I never tried to shut you down, only suggestion I ideas for troubleshooting.

                      I can see that the image is all fouled up. I can't reproduce it. I know a lot about the internal workings of AE and I cannot imagine anything that would cause a track Matt to scale the layer below.  All I have been doing is suggesting troubleshooting techniques that anyone facing a similar problem could use to figure out what's going on. It's not that I can't see it, it's just that I can't explain it and you haven't provided confirmation that the only modified properties to the layers involved our position and scale. If that is true you have a very weird bug and I'm sorry for you but I tried from CS6 to CC 2015 using Windows 7 and  three different versions of OSX  on 4 machines without being able to reproduce the problem.


                      The only suspects I have left are the original footage codec which could be tested by replacing the footage  with another format or even still, or some very weird graphics driver issue. Exactly the same settings that I see in your screenshot using a solid with a mask for a shape layer produces perfect results.

                      • 8. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                        ebluBeta Level 1

                        Rick,

                        I know quite a bit about the inner workings of After effects myself.

                        Iv'e written plugins, developed my own IK solution, Interface widgets.

                         

                        and I can tell you with absolute certainty, that I have solved the problem.

                        ...And that you can In fact duplicate the problem as well as the solution.

                        It's a bug in the 3d camera solve.

                         

                        add footage, do a 3d camera solve on it, add the camera.

                        duplicate that footage, and then add a track matte.

                         

                        then you will see the bug.

                        its amazing, it doesn't happen if you don't lay the same footage (with its duplicated camera solve) over top of the original and then add a traveling alpha matte.

                        but do those things, and it happens every time.

                         

                        I'm uploading a vimeo now. will loop back around with the link when vimeo gets it "converted"

                        • 10. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I ran a test on OS X 10.11.1 and CC 2015 and I duplicated the bug with footage from a Sony camera but the bug did not happen footage from a GoPro Hero 3 camera. Weird. Deleting the Camera tracker from the top copy of the video fixes the problem for me also. That's why I suggested looking for everything that was applied to the layers in question. I probably never ran into this bug before because as soon as I get a good Camera Track and have created the camera and a placeholder null, solid or text layer I delete the Camera Tracker effect because it slows things down and makes the project file a lot larger. If I had known that Camera tracker was applied to the layer in question my first suggestion would have been to remove it.

                          BUG:

                          Screen Shot 2015-11-17 at 6.04.07 PM.png

                          Camera Tracker turned off:

                          Screen Shot 2015-11-17 at 6.04.28 PM.png

                           

                          BTW, I do the same with Warp Stabilizer. As soon as a shot is stabilized to my liking I render a DI and get rid of the whole warp stabilized comp. It would be interesting to see if this bug also appears in warp stabilized footage.

                           

                          Glad you solved it. Where did your footage come from?  This bug might be somehow related to decoding the codec.

                          • 11. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                            ebluBeta Level 1

                            honestly,

                            There's no reason to ever expect an instance of the 3d camera tracking plugin of transforming footage.

                            the camera tracking plugin, does do drawing (it's own ui). but it does not redraw the layer.  it's just doing a straight copy. And the fact that the issue is intermittent (even in the video you see individual frames that are drawing properly as they are scrubbed), it's pretty obvious that this is some kind of "relying on a value that may not be available" bug.

                            I keep the plugin around because I might need to go back to the solve. Looks like it's ok to keep one instance around.

                             

                            No matter how bad it looks in preview, it seems to render properly. that, plus the magical way the issues disappear when you turn somethings off or on, pointed me towards 3d camera tracker.

                             

                            I get why they built the 3d tracker as a plugin. it's the only way to do it. but things like puppeteer, and 3d camera tracking, paint ui are not treated as plugins in the UI. I did obliquely mention tracking, but to my old hand Tracking is a process in AE, not a plugin, and that's how it is presented to the user. of course, I didn't think it was the issue.

                            My footage is compressed using the animation codec, it's not a rare codec. I wouldn't be surprised if the issue was related to legacy quicktime codecs. I'll have to try it with ProRes.

                            • 12. Re: can anyone duplicate this matting issue?
                              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Just tried some Canon D5 footage and got the error. Rendered my Go Pro footage to Chinaware 12 bit and still no error. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the analysis and the lens angle. Definitely a bug. I've filed one. Hope you do the same.

                               

                              EDIT: The bug is also in CC 2014 and CC. If you save as a previous version the bug does not appear until the camera solve has completed. Weird....