1 2 3 4 Previous Next 120 Replies Latest reply on Jun 23, 2016 11:17 AM by Paul_B_GB

    Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?

    Paul_B_GB

      I'm having a lot of trouble with adobe standard with my Samsung NX300m in Lightroom (6).

       

      Compared to the jpegs that come out of the camera (& other raw converters too) the low tones (& to a lessor extent the mid tones too) are too bright. The contrast ratio between the darks and highs is wrong. If I use the contrast slider to lower the low tones as much as they need then the high tones become far too bright. It looks aweful and wrong (even with -highlights).

       

      I can only assume that adobe standard is wrong.

       

      The only work around I've found is to go into the tone curve and do -15 or -20 darks on every photo instead of touching the contrast slider.

       

      Such a shame only Adobe Standard is available.

       

      Some of the colour tones are out too

       

      Any advice?

        • 1. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
          deepakg1988 Adobe Employee

          You can download the profile for the NX from the below mentioned Link

           

          http://rawstudio.org/svn/rawstudio/trunk/profiles/

           

          Copy the profile at the below mentioned Location

           

          C:\Users\yourusername\AppData \Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

           

          AppData is a hidden folder so you may need to just type it into Explorer’s address bar when you get to that point in the location address.

           

          Thanks

          • 2. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
            Paul_B_GB Level 1

            Hello Deepakgahlot

             

            Thanks for your answer. I don't think the link you've given works (at least not atm/at my end)

            • 3. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
              Paul_B_GB Level 1

              It's a shame Adobe staff don't seem to answer these questions themselves. It would be interesting to hear their official opinions on things I think.

              • 4. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                It sounds like the image files may be slightly over-exposed. The JPEG may be corrected for that based on in-camera settings, but raw files are simply raw data with no corrections. Try using the 'Auto' Tone button and then adjust only the Exposure slider for the best midtone brightness. How does the image look now?

                 

                • 5. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                  Paul_B_GB Level 1

                  Hi Trshaner, thanks for the reply.

                   

                  I'm away from PC ATM and using my phone. I know what you are saying but I would just say this:

                   

                  1) the problem is not there if I use other Raw software, ie DxO etc. However all my catalogues are done in Lightroom and I want to keep it that way.

                  2) I've turned off stuff like dynamic range or highlight protection etc in the camera. No enhancements are turned on.

                  3) I imagine (but could be wrong) that the Adobe STD default Raw curve for this camera is not that good. Ie you can't use contrast slider for contrast because the dark tones are too bright to begin with and you need too much contrast just to get them right again, thus at the same time compressing and brightening the lighter tones too much too.

                  4) it surely can't be an overexposure problem because its with all images not just some.

                  • 6. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Paul_B_GB wrote:

                     

                    Hi Trshaner, thanks for the reply.

                    3) I imagine (but could be wrong) that the Adobe STD default Raw curve for this camera is not that good. Ie you can't use contrast slider for contrast because the dark tones are too bright to begin with and you need too much contrast just to get them right again, thus at the same time compressing and brightening the lighter tones too much too.

                    4) it surely can't be an overexposure problem because its with all images not just some.

                    You are correct the Contrast control won't help much for correcting dark tones or bright tones–It primarily affects the midtones. The same goes for the Exposure control, which targets the midtone region. Try the 'Auto' Tone button as I outlined and let me know if that "fixes the issue. If not I suggest posting one of the raw files to Dropbox and I'll take a look at it. You can also download a tutorial I created for adjusting the Basic panel PV2012 Tone Controls:

                     

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsl4jfswwoc1yo4/Lightroom%20PV2012%20Basic%20Tone%20Control%20Ad justments.pdf?dl=0

                    • 7. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                      Paul_B_GB Level 1

                      Hello Trshaner

                       

                      Thanks for the reply and your help. It's appreciated.

                       

                      The auto tone button gets things totally wrong. It vastly overexposes the images.

                       

                      I've uploaded some test images for you to my OneDrive. I'd be interested what you think of the problem once you can play with some of the images. I've supplied the 'out of camera' jpegs for you to do comparisons with too.

                       

                      Thanks.

                       

                      https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!20144&authkey=!ABZ_17GP87zdL0Y&ithi nt=folder%2cJPG

                      • 8. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                        Paul_B_GB Level 1

                        I'm toying with the idea of making my own dcp file from Adobe DNG profile editor. My reason is that there is no 'camera neutral' from my Samsung Nx300m. Maybe it would be good to create one. Although i have to admit it is very advanced stuff for me, and I'd be unsure that i know what I'm doing.

                         

                        Any advice on that would be very interesting to me.

                        • 9. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                          The auto tone button gets things totally wrong. It vastly overexposes the images.

                           

                          Paul, I downloaded all of the image files and checked them in LR CC2015.1.1 on my WIndows 7 system with calibrated monitor (6500K, 2.2 Gamma, 100 dc/m2 Luminance). Using Auto Tone they all look pretty good, so I'm not seeing the overexposure you're seeing. Below is one of the images I adjusted manually using the PV2012 Tone control procedure at the link I provided. Top is Before without adjustments and bottom After with my adjustments. The Auto Tone settings shown below produce similar results, just not quite as much Highlight and Shadow detail as with my settings. In most cases simply adjusting the Exposure control for the correct midtone brightness is all that is required after applying Auto Tone. With your .SRW files the settings were OK without any further adjustment, but can be improved on as explained in the tutorial.

                           

                          There are a few things that could be causing this issue.

                           

                          1) Monitor Brightness set too high. Best solution is to use a good monitor calibrator and set for 6500K, 2.2 Gamma, 100-120 cd/m2 Luminance. You can check your monitor settings at Lagom's test site. Follow the instructions on the site:

                           

                          Black level - Lagom LCD test

                           

                          White saturation - Lagom LCD test

                           

                          2) Incompatible monitor profile. Follow the instructions at the below site to check:

                           

                          http://www.lightroomqueen.com/articles-page/how-do-i-change-my-monitor-profile-to-check-wh ether-its-corrupted/

                           

                          3) Graphics driver issue. If using LR 6 or CC2015 go into Preferences> Performance and uncheck 'Use Graphics Processor. You may also want to upgrade your graphics driver.

                           

                          If the issue persists please let me know what OS and LR version you are using and system type and monitor model.

                           

                          Auto Tone Adjustments 11150563.SRW

                          My Adjustments

                          (click on image to see full-size)

                          Before-After Compare.jpg

                          • 10. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                            Keith_Reeder Level 4

                            Paul_B_GB wrote:

                             

                            It's a shame Adobe staff don't seem to answer these questions themselves. It would be interesting to hear their official opinions on things I think.

                            Does the word "Staff" next to Deepak's post not suggest something to you, Paul?

                            • 11. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                              Keith_Reeder Level 4

                              Paul_B_GB wrote:

                               

                              Hello Deepakgahlot

                               

                              Thanks for your answer. I don't think the link you've given works (at least not atm/at my end)

                              Did you change "yourusername" to - well - your Windows User Account ID name?

                              • 12. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                No, same username throughout! (at least at my end)

                                • 13. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                  Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                  Trshaner, Thanks for taking the time in giving your take on this problem.

                                   

                                  Um, the photo you worked on perhaps isn't the best example really. It was badly underexposed in the first place. The images i have most trouble with are the correctly exposed ones. Does your auto tone work OK on all the images?

                                   

                                  The issue I'm seeing (in the correctly exposed photos) is that at default settings the low tones up to the mid tones are too bright. My 1st instinct is to use the contrast slider to lower the low tones again to give the image contrast. However this also over brightens the higher tones and compresses them (see the examples below). Yes, the low tones look OK again, but the images look awful at the top end. This is especially evident in close ups of faces etc. The only solution i found was to use -dark tones instead of using +contrast.

                                   

                                  The issue doesn't happen in DxO etc. This is what makes me think that it isn't a monitor issue. In fact i have 2 computers, with 2 different monitors and it happens on both (both Windows 8.1, using Lightroom 6 (standalone)).

                                   

                                  Here's an example of what i mean:

                                  Out of camera jpeg.jpg

                                  ^This is the out of camera Jpeg. Lets focus on the contrast in the skin tones. It looks good.

                                  DxO.jpg

                                  ^This is Raw export of the same image from DxO (no adjustments). Almost identical.

                                  LR default RAW export.jpg

                                  ^This is a Raw export from Lightroom (no adjustments). Much higher low tones and somewhat mid tones too.It needs contrast. Notice too the difference in the brightness of the low tones compared to the out of camera Jpeg. They obviously need lowering somehow.

                                  LR RAW with contrast +30.jpg

                                  ^This is the same Lightroom Raw export but with Contrast +30. The low & mid tones are much better (comparable with the out of camera Jpeg & DxO), but the high tones are now too prominent (too bright) compared to the rest of the tones, especially in the face. The weird thing is though is that the histogram doesn't stretch as far to the right as the out of camera Jpegs or DxO's. So i don't know why the high tones look more prominent.

                                  LR darks -20.jpg

                                  ^This is the same Lightroom Raw export, but instead of using the contrast slider I'm using -20 Dark Tones. The overall contrast is good and we also have much better contrast between the high tones too, ie not too prominent or that bandy look.

                                   

                                  LR Auto Tone.jpg

                                  ^This is just the Raw file with 'auto tone' enabled (no other adjustments). It looks terrible and overexposed.

                                  • 14. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                    ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Replying to your initial post, but adding my two-cents to everything that's been said through what Mr. Shaner is saying in this morning's reply...

                                     

                                    For this one example shot, I find the camera jpg and the Adobe default processing to be almost identical -- comparing them using the X|Y view in Library, though maybe the Adobe processing is very slightly brighter and the colors slightly different, which is expected because Adobe Standard is not trying to match camera rendering it is trying to match Adobe Standard on other models cameras to some degree.  The camera, itself, underexposed the scene due to the white clothing in the center, I think, so the photo will need adjustments applied, but not because Adobe's processing is wrong, but because the camera exposure is too dark:

                                    If this almost-the-same-rendering between the camera-JPG and Adobe-default-RAW treatment is not what you're seeing after Import then some thing is wrong with your computer or with your settings in Lightroom.

                                     

                                    The most obvious thing that could be wrong is that you have Apply Auto Tone Adjustments set in Preferences and that would, I agree, usually cause a change in tone, usually too bright, which is why I don't use it without readjusting the Exposure downward in most cases or at least adjusting the Whites and the Blacks.  This is where you turn off Apply Auto Tone during Import in LR Prefs -- remove the checkmark if there is one:

                                     

                                    So at this point I want to ask are you applying Auto tone either automatically during Import or manually after Import and then don't like how bright the images are, or are you seeing the images brighter without Auto tone having been applied and all the Basic toning sliders still set to 0 or does Import, even without Auto tone having been applied, result in the Basic toning sliders having non-zero values?  If the latter is true then you may have set your Adobe defaults for the camera to something non-zero and need to undo these customized defaults, at least the Basic toning sliders.

                                     

                                    Sometimes all I do with the Basic toning sliders is shift-double-click on the Blacks and Whites sliders individually to have LR compute the black and white points in relation to the current adjustments that have been applied.  Each time I change something that affects how bright or dark the photo is, I might redo these two shift-double-clicks at least until I've made my initial pass on adjustments to the photo.

                                     

                                    Here is what changed when I did that for the example photo, above, starting with the Adobe default processing that was a little dark:

                                     

                                    Usually using Auto tone overexposes.  For this photo, which is underexposed from the camera, using Auto is actually ok.  However, I also want to redo the Whites and Blacks after changing the toning with Auto:

                                    The above looks reasonable to me for this particular photo, although maybe I'd add a little Clarity or Dehaze to boost the local contrast slightly.

                                     

                                    Here is an example using Dehaze which strengthens the colors as well as the contrast, but in this shot with colorful costumes it looks ok.  Other types of photos where the skin tones are more prominent it might be too much, so a negative Saturation would need added but not in this case:

                                     

                                    Aside from the first two being too dark, all of the righthand SRW or After shots in each screenshot I've included in this reply look reasonable to me, so if they don't to you then maybe your monitor is adjusted poorly or had a bad monitor profile or bad video drivers, all of which Todd showed how to fix in his first reply this morning.

                                    • 15. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Based on your saying all except the last example are generally the right brightness, I'm going to guess that your monitor is turned up too bright so everything looks fine when it is really too dark, because on my calibrated monitor they all look quite a bit too dark to me, except the last one that does look a little too bright but not as bad as the others look too dark.

                                      • 16. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Here is what I see with this new photo using Adobe defaults and then shift-double-clicking on the Whites and Blacks:

                                         

                                        Here is Adobe default processing vs Auto, shift-double-click Whites, Black, then Dehaze +33 which may have made the skintones too saturated, which could be corrected with a slight negative Saturation adjustment:

                                         

                                        The final image looks fine to me, turning a dull cloudy day into a sunny day without the harsh shadows.  It is quite a bit brighter than the camera JPG which it needs to be.

                                         

                                        Again, I think your monitor is adjusted wrong, the brightness, at least, and maybe the contrast.

                                        • 17. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                          Um, the photo you worked on perhaps isn't the best example really. It was badly underexposed in the first place. The images i have most trouble with are the correctly exposed ones. Does your auto tone work OK on all the images?

                                           

                                          The 11150563.SRW image file is actually very well exposed. It's only about -.50 EV EV below clipping highlights when viewed in RawDigger (2865/4095 = .70 ratio = ~-.50 EV) . Considering the sky is overcast that's no too bad of an exposure. This clearly indicates your monitor brightness level is too high.

                                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                           

                                          The issue doesn't happen in DxO etc. This is what makes me think that it isn't a monitor issue. In fact i have 2 computers, with 2 different monitors and it happens on both (both Windows 8.1, using Lightroom 6 (standalone)).

                                          Lightroom is very finicky about the monitor profile. Are you using a monitor calibrator? Did you try the three checks I outlined in my reply #9? Let's stay focused on resolving these potential issue instead of the images, which appear quite normal on my calibrated system with LR CC2015.1.1.

                                           

                                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                          ^This is just the Raw file with 'auto tone' enabled (no other adjustments). It looks terrible and overexposed.

                                          As I explained Auto Tone will sometimes set Exposure incorrectly, but all of the other Tone adjustments may be OK. With this image file (11150592.SRW) all I needed to do was adjust Exposure from the Auto Tone setting .75 to .50 and the it looks pretty good. So again a clear indication that your monitor is not behaving properly with LR. Let's find out why by running those tests and tell us what you find.

                                          • 18. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                            Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                            Um, I'm not too sure how this issue has become one only about exposure. The issue i had was about contrast. I originally was explaining that i can't use my contrast slider for contrast because the ratio between the low tones and high tones seems wrong in the un-adjusted Adobe Std Raw. The low tones (& somewhat the mid-tones too) originally seem too bright, but the high tones originally seem ok without needing much adjustment (if any). Then to get the needed contrast between the low tones and the high tones, you think you'd need to adjust the contrast slider, but you'd need to adjust it by quite a bit to get the low tones looking like they should, but because the high tones were ok to begin with they then become too bright (& compressed) and bandy.

                                             

                                            Here's some examples of what I'm trying to talk about but with some proper exposed images.

                                             

                                            I can visually see the brightness difference of the un-adjusted images if in Lightroom i browse between the 'out of camera' jpeg version and then the Raw version. Is it a monitor issue? Well I'd say that the important thing is to look at the histogram. That way i can be fairly certain its not a monitor issue but an Adobe Std issue (you can see the histograms in the below screenshots):

                                             

                                            Screenshot (31).jpg

                                            ^Out of camera Jpeg

                                            Screenshot (32).jpg

                                            ^Un-adjusted Raw

                                             

                                            Screenshot (33).jpg

                                            ^Out of camera Jpeg

                                             

                                            Screenshot (34).jpg

                                            'Out of camera' Raw.

                                             

                                            In the last 2 pics of the runner note that no contrast adjustment has yet been applied to the Raw. The low to mid tones are already brighter than the 'out of camera' Jpeg and need re-seating, ie look at the brightness of the grass. Yet look at the high tones around the edges of her blue tracksuit. They are already looking much brighter and standing out much more than they do compared to the 'out of camera' Jpeg. In using the contrast slider it would give the needed brightness reduction in the low (& somewhat mid tones), but the high tones become even brighter and even more separated from the rest. It ends up looking awful. The only work around i can find for getting the overall image contrast that i need is to use -black tones instead (for a reduction in the lower tones (& up to the mid tones too).

                                            Screenshot (33)_cr.jpgScreenshot (34)_cr.jpg

                                            Can anybody see what I'm trying to say?

                                            • 19. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                              Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                              ps, here's the 4 images (2 Jpegs & 2 Raws) on my OneDrive, just in case anybody wants to play with them.

                                               

                                              https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!20161&authkey=!AAfNnoEL4RV89q8&ithi nt=folder%2cJPG

                                              • 20. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                                 

                                                Um, I'm not too sure how this issue has become one only about exposure. The issue i had was about contrast. I originally was explaining that i can't use my contrast slider for contrast because the ratio between the low tones and high tones seems wrong in the un-adjusted Adobe Std Raw. The low tones (& somewhat the mid-tones too) originally seem too bright, but the high tones originally seem ok without needing much adjustment (if any).

                                                As already explained this is an indication of a monitor or monitor profile issue. I downloaded the LR screens shots for both images JPEG and SRW that you inserted here. From inside LR they  look identical if I decrease Exposure on the SRW screenshots to -.25. There is a slight WB difference, but again they look virtually identical. Other than the +.25 Exposure difference and a very slight WB difference the JPEG and SRW images are identical on my calibrated monitor. So to answer your question–No I'm not seeing what you're saying!

                                                 

                                                Please try the below trouble-shooting suggestions

                                                 

                                                1) Test for incompatible monitor profile. Follow the instructions at the below site to assign the sRGB profile as your monitor profile:

                                                 

                                                http://www.lightroomqueen.com/articles-page/how-do-i-change-my-monitor-profile-to-check-wh ether-its-corrupted/

                                                 

                                                2) If using LR 6 or CC2015 go into Preferences> Performance and uncheck 'Use Graphics Processor.

                                                 

                                                3) You may also want to upgrade your graphics driver if the above does not resolve the issue.

                                                • 21. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                                   

                                                  ps, here's the 4 images (2 Jpegs & 2 Raws) on my OneDrive, just in case anybody wants to play with them.

                                                   

                                                  https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!20161&authkey=!AAfNnoEL4RV89q8&ithi nt=folder%2cJPG

                                                  The JPEG files aren't uploaded, just the two SRWs.

                                                  • 22. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                    Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                    I'm not at my PC's ATM, im sending this from my phone.

                                                    I will def try your advice when I get home.

                                                     

                                                    I can't help but wonder why this problem of monitors would happen on my 2 different PCs and 2 different monitors though. Also if it was a monitor problem wouldn't it effect the jpegs and the Raws the same? The histograms clearly show that to not be the case.

                                                     

                                                    If im wrong then apologies for infuriating.

                                                    • 23. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      The camera JPGs do tend to be slightly (-.25 to -.35 EV) darker compared to the SRWs but with the higher ISO 3200 ones, like the runner, the camera noise-reduction for the JPGs tends to make them muddy and have less contrast in the darker areas as compared to the Adobe rendering.

                                                       

                                                      The other thing is that the default Adobe rendering has no luminance NR added so the tiny speckles can make the image lighter.  You'd want to use a Sharpen Mask in the range of 90 to 100 to keep the noise from the smallish sensor from being sharpened, especially with those of higher ISO.

                                                       

                                                      Here is a grid view of all the images you've uploaded, with the camera JPG on the left and the default Adobe-rendered SRW on the right.  I think I prefer the Adobe version to the camera JPG in almost all these image pairs:

                                                      I do think the contrast curve is different between the camera rendering and the Adobe rendering.  Who's to say which one is more correct.  As I said, above, I prefer the default Adobe rendering on my monitor, at least.

                                                       

                                                      There is probably also something happening with the camera conversion to JPG where the conversion is optimized for the smaller sRGB color space whereas LR is using a larger ProPhotoRGB internally and has more headroom when manipulating raw data so may not be doing artificial contrast compression that the camera has already done converting to JPG.

                                                       

                                                      Is your overall issue that you cannot produce a raw rendering that you like, or just that you can't duplicate what the camera's doing?

                                                      • 24. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                        Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                        My overall issue is this:

                                                         

                                                        I've processed 1000's of Raw photos from about 10 different cameras that I've owned. I've never had this problem with any of them, except this Samsung camera. The problem is not being able to use the contrast slider because I believe the Adobe Standard Raw curve gives an initial imbalance in the ratio between the lows, MIDs and highs. Ie lows (& somewhat mids) being too high but the highs tones OK. Therefore using contrast slider to reseat the lows where they need to be then throws the top end out by quite a bit causing that bandy un-natural look.

                                                         

                                                        Honestly, ive developed so many Raws from lots of cameras. I'd like to think i'd notice something like that. Perhaps if others owned this Samsung camera and tried to develop it photos for a while they would begin to notice the same issue. I'd be so surprised if it was a monitor thing as I have other Raw's from other cameras in the same catalogue and they are fine.

                                                         

                                                        I've just woken up and am still half asleep. I hope I've explained myself OK. Apologies if I sound a bit grumpy, lol.

                                                         

                                                        Would anybody fancy editing the DNG curve (via DNG profile editor) giving me a more neutral one, or even camera standard one? It's a bit beyond my own capabilities really.

                                                        • 25. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                                           

                                                          My overall issue is this:

                                                           

                                                          I've processed 1000's of Raw photos from about 10 different cameras that I've owned. I've never had this problem with any of them, except this Samsung camera. The problem is not being able to use the contrast slider because I believe the Adobe Standard Raw curve gives an initial imbalance in the ratio between the lows, MIDs and highs. Ie lows (& somewhat mids) being too high but the highs tones OK. Therefore using contrast slider to reseat the lows where they need to be then throws the top end out by quite a bit causing that bandy un-natural look.

                                                          Paul, what version of LR were you using previous to LR6? If it was LR3 or earlier the new PV2012 Tone controls introduced in LR4 work much differently than PV2010. Please download the PV2012 tutorial with workflow details at the Dropbox link I provided. These new tone controls are image adaptive and interact with each, so it's important to understand how they work. The Contrast Tone control should be used for adjusting the "midtone range" contrast in the image, while ignoring its affect on the dark shadow and bright highlight areas. Those areas should be  adjusted using the Blacks and Whites sliders to set the clipping points. Holding down the ALT key when adjusting them to see clipping. Much more detail in the tutorial.

                                                           

                                                          You have considerable experience with adjusting images so they look "correct" and "natural. Unfortunately all of this is for naught if you are using an uncalibrated or improperly adjusted monitor. My best suggestion is to purchase a good monitor calibrator that is capable of setting the monitor's Luminance level (100-120 cd/m2), Gamma (2.2), and white point (6500), such as the X-Rite i1 Display Pro. It's probably the best $ for $ investment toward improving the images from your current camera equipment.

                                                           

                                                          Getting back to the Adobe Standard profile. I created a new profile using the Adobe DNG Editor and the Canon 5DMKII Camera Neutral as the 'Base profile.' It matches the camera JPEG rendering very closely for the in-camera style settings you used. You can download it here:

                                                           

                                                          Dropbox - Samsung NX300 - Camera Neutral.dcp

                                                           

                                                          You need to copy the above DCP file into the below folder and then restart LR to load it:

                                                           

                                                          C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

                                                           

                                                          Concerning the Detail panel settings there is always a trade-off of sharpening versus noise-reduction with high ISO images (ie. ISO 3200). That's why the in-camera JPEG looks soft compared to the SRW file inside LR. What's important is that you apply enough Luminance Noise Reduction to reduce visible noise at 1:1 Zoom view and don't use high sharpening settings (Amount, Detail, Masking all <50). As

                                                          • 26. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                            Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                            Thank you so much for taking the time to make me the dcp file. Very kind.

                                                             

                                                            I've only ever used Lightroom 4, 5 & 6 (PV 2012).

                                                             

                                                            I always imagined the contrast slider stretched the low tones and the high tones away from the mid tones (that what it looked like to me when looking at the histogram). I always thought it left the mid tones pretty much as they were, ie effected them the least. I feel some experimenting coming on, lol.

                                                             

                                                            Any way plenty to think about. Lots of good advice

                                                             

                                                            Thanks again for all your help (everybody).

                                                            • 27. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                              Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                              I've been reading over some of the replies on the thread.

                                                               

                                                              I never knew about shift double clicking on the blacks slider to get Lightroom to set the black point automatically. The fascinating thing is that Lightroom reduces the blacks a lot further than i would of done myself manually, i.e i always reduce the blacks slider until i see the first visual sign of clipping (blue dots over the image). Lightroom reduces them much further. In doing so, i actually need far less contrast adjustment that i would otherwise of used. It seems to be a part solution to my problem i think.

                                                              • 28. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                FWIW, I rarely use the Contrast slider because it adjusts both ends of the histogram and I don't want to be adjusting two things simultaneously because both ends rarely need the same adjustment.  And unless my subject is precisely metered midtones adjusting the contrast will make it lighter or darker.

                                                                 

                                                                I might have LR tell me what it thinks it wants to do with the Contrast slider by clicking Auto initially or shift-double-clicking on the Contrast slider to have LR tell me what Auto would have done but not change any of the other sliders, but rarely do I adjust Contrast, otherwise.  Much of the time, when the scene is outdoors in the sun, LR Auto sets the Contrast to -25.  My camera is a Canon 7D II.

                                                                 

                                                                I usually do adjust the Whites and Blacks and Highlights and Shadows and usually Exposure, but not Contrast.  If I want to increase the local contrast I use Clarity or now Dehaze which doesn't change the black and white points too much, but I would probably shift-double-click on the Whites and Blacks just to make sure. 

                                                                • 29. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                  Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                  Fascinating.

                                                                   

                                                                  This then means i'm going to have to change my Lightroom procedure ONCE AGAIN, lol

                                                                   

                                                                  Just out of interest. If like in my case i feel that from a certain camera the Raw rendition of the images compared to the camera Jpegs has a bit too much brightness in the lower half of the tones, how would you correct that to regain overall image contrast. Ie, would you use -exposure or -shadows, or another method, if you are not going to use the contrast slider?

                                                                   

                                                                  Also if the image is underexposed i assume you wouldn't just shift double click on the whites slider to set the white point, but rather you'd want to do some of the heavy lifting with the exposure slider 1st. How much +whites would be considered to be too much before you'd start to think "hold on a minute" lets do some lifting with the exposure slider first?

                                                                  • 30. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    The PV2012 Contrast control should only be used to adjust the midtone region contrast in the image. Yes it does also affect the dark and light areas of the image, but the Whites and Blacks sliders should be used to set those areas AND the clipping points. That's why it's so important to use a top-down workflow with the PV2012 Tone controls. I do agree with

                                                                     

                                                                    Here's the tutorial at the link provided that explains everything your asking here it is:

                                                                    _____________________________________________

                                                                     

                                                                    Lightroom PV2012 Basic Panel Tone Control Adjustment Procedure - By Todd R. Shaner

                                                                     

                                                                    https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1889214

                                                                     

                                                                    The PV2012 Tone controls are "image adaptive" and adjusting them in a "random" order is an exercise in frustration. Here's a short tutorial on how to use them to quickly establish the desired "balance" of midtone brightness & contrast, highlight detail, shadow detail, and whites & blacks set points. I suggest testing with both the Adobe Standard and Camera Standard profiles to see which you prefer. You can create a "custom" camera profile using the ColorChecker Passport, but first give the two "standard" profiles a try using this workflow procedure.

                                                                     

                                                                    Start with all of the Tone controls at their default 0 settings and adjust them from the top-down in the order shown below.

                                                                     

                                                                    1. Set Exposure to correct the image midtone brightness ignoring the highlight and shadow areas for now. Setting Exposure slightly higher (+.25 to +.50 EV) than what looks correct for the midtones seems to work best with most images.

                                                                     

                                                                    2. Leave Contrast at 0 for now. It’s usually better to adjust this after the first pass.


                                                                    3. Adjust Highlights so that blown out areas are recovered and/or “fine tonal detail” is revealed.

                                                                     

                                                                    4. Adjust Shadows to reveal fine detail in dark areas. For most normal images simply setting +Shadows the same as -Highlights (Example +50 and -50) works very well.

                                                                     

                                                                    5. The Whites control sets the white clipping point, which you can see by holding down the ALT key as you move the slider. Adjust it to the point where you see clipping appear with the ALT key.

                                                                     

                                                                    6. The Blacks control sets the black clipping point, which you can see by holding down the ALT key as you move the slider. Adjust it to the point where you see clipping appear with the ALT key. With very low contrast images such as a picture shot in foggy weather you may not want to use a lower setting (i.e. no Black clipping).

                                                                     

                                                                    7. Now go back and adjust the Contrast control to establish the best midtone contrast. Ignore its effect on the overall image contrast. That is set by the Whites and Blacks clipping point controls.

                                                                     

                                                                    8. Lastly touchup the Exposure control for the best midtone brightness.

                                                                     

                                                                    If necessary you can make second-pass with the same top-down workflow to “touch-up” the current control settings.

                                                                     

                                                                    You can also try using the 'Camera' profiles rather than just Adobe Standard. If you change the camera profile it's best to start over with the Tone controls reset to 0. You can do this using a Virtual Copy so that the original Master file image adjustments are retained. If you like the results with a different camera profile you can 'Sync' the settings from the Virtual Copy to the Master file and delete the Virtual Copy....or simply keep both.

                                                                     

                                                                    Use the Local controls (Graduated Filter, Radial Filter, Adjustment Brush) to "fix" specific image areas that need further adjustment.

                                                                     

                                                                    PV2012 Adjustment Speed Tip

                                                                    I created a preset that applies Exposure +.5 EV, Highlights -50, and Shadows +50, which works well using the Adobe and Camera Standard profiles with most normal contrast subjects. Adjust the Exposure slider if necessary to correct the midtone brightness and then jump to step #5 above. The settings that work well with your images may be slightly different. Adjust accordingly and check just those settings in the Develop Preset.

                                                                    ____________________________________

                                                                     

                                                                    • 31. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                      Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                      Well, that all makes perfect sense to me now. I'm glad i asked. Sorry for being a pain in the rear at times.

                                                                       

                                                                      I would just say that for my particular camera, it seems to need -highlights and -shadows, rather than -highlight and +shadows, just to correct the overall image contrast. I suppose every camera is different. I still get a slight feeling that the adobe standard curve could be better for this camera though.

                                                                       

                                                                      That is of course me assuming that -shadows is the correct method for reducing the lower tones if the overall image contrast ratio seems out (ie high tones look ok but the low tones too bright), as in my camera.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                        Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                        Trshaner.

                                                                         

                                                                        Can you help me understand something then please.

                                                                         

                                                                        You said "The PV2012 Contrast control should only be used to adjust the midtone region contrast in the image. Yes it does also affect the dark and light areas of the image, but the Whites and Blacks sliders should be used to set those areas AND the clipping points".

                                                                         

                                                                        So what happens if I've set my black and whites points (shift double clicking on the blacks and whites sliders) but the contrast still looks out? In my camera generally the low to mid tones seem a bit bright, but the top end tones seem fine. So lets work on that being the example:

                                                                         

                                                                        I can think of only 3 other ways of affecting contrast using the basic panel (in this example wanting less brightness in the low to mid tones):

                                                                         

                                                                        1) The contrast slider, but that is clearly being discourage here.

                                                                         

                                                                        or

                                                                         

                                                                        2) Minus exposure

                                                                         

                                                                        or

                                                                         

                                                                        3) Minus shadows.

                                                                         

                                                                        Could it be that the contrast looks out because of overexposure of the Raw image, thus using minus exposure is the correct method, or do you just simply use minus shadows?

                                                                        • 33. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                                                          I would just say that for my particular camera, it seems to need -highlights and -shadows, rather than -highlight and +shadows, just to correct the overall image contrast. I suppose every camera is different. I still get a slight feeling that the adobe standard curve could be better for this camera though.

                                                                          As mentioned this is most likely due to an issue with your monitor profile and/or Luminance level (i.e. Brightness setting). Virtually all "normal" camera raw files such as you posted will work best with -Highlights = +Shadows settings (-25 and +25 for example). Here's a link with three test files and a 4th file with instructions to check your monitor:

                                                                          Dropbox - Monitor Test files

                                                                           

                                                                          Import them into LR and run the checks as outlined in the readme png.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            Paul_B_GB wrote:

                                                                            So what happens if I've set my black and whites points (shift double clicking on the blacks and whites sliders) but the contrast still looks out? In my camera generally the low to mid tones seem a bit bright, but the top end tones seem fine. So lets work on that being the example:

                                                                            Again, a clear indication of a monitor profile issue and/or too high of a Brightness control setting (Luminance level). You can use the three monitor test files to adjust your monitors' Brightness and contrast controls to achieve 2.2 Gamma and a more proper Luminance level. Make sure the monitor is also set for 6500 Color Temperature (i.e. White Point). Ideally you should borrow or purchase a monitor calibrator for this purpose and set Luminance in the range of 100 to120 cd/m2, 6500 WP, 2.2 Gamma, and ICC v2 profile preferences (not ICC v4).

                                                                             

                                                                            I think we've come full-circle on the root cause. Once you've rectified the monitor issue the LR Tone controls should work more normal as outlined. They certainly do on my system and 's  with your SRW files.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                              Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                              Trshaner, does your development workflow procedure outlined above also apply to jpegs too?

                                                                              • 36. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                Yes, the same PV2012 Tone control workflow is applicable to JPEGS and other non-raw files (TIFF, PSD, PNG). You will have less latitude of adjustment with these files since a camera profile, sharpening, noise reduction, and white balance have already been applied and "baked in." However, the PV2012 Tone controls can still improve these already rendered images.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                                  Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                                  Well I'm so pleased. Using the shift double clicking whites/black's method has solved my contrast issue in my original post.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Silly me for thinking the contrast slider should be used for image contrast adjustment, no wonder it looked terrible lol.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I've learnt so much from this thread. My images & I thank you all

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                    Actually that's probably not the primary issue, which is your monitor.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    As a check I Reset the Develop settings on your 11260757.SRW file and used Shift Double-Click on the Whites and Blacks controls. The Whites slider went to -100...what the heck! So this appears to be a bug. Next I Reset the Develop settings again on the 11260757.SRW file and used the Auto Tone button...now the Whites slider is at 0...... Clearly there is a bug in LR CC2015.3 and 6.3.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I checked your 11260757.SRW file in LR 5.7.1 using the same procedure and the Whites slider remains at 0. I also tried my top-down method of applying the Tone controls using Shift Double-Click  in this order: Exposure> Contrast> Highlights> Shadows> Whites> Blacks. The settings are identical except for Blacks, which are more negative (more clipping) with the top-down adjustment. I repeated the same test using a similar Canon 5D MKII CR2 raw image file with very similar results. I believe in LR 4 and perhaps earlier versions of LR5 the Auto Tone produces the same settings with the button or individual Shift Double-Click. So the Auto Tone Blacks behavior has changed in LR 5.7.1 and now the Whites in LR CC 2015.3 and 6.3.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Paul and Steve can you please run the same test with the the 11260757.SRW file and see if you get the same results?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Paul, the reason it appears Shift Double-Click Whites & Blacksresolves your issue is because the peculiar LR 6.3 Whites Auto Tone behavior is lowering the overall image brightness. Two Wrongs (in opposite directions) make it Right.

                                                                                    Auto Tone Issue Lightroom 6.3.jpg

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Adobe standard problems with my Samsung NX. Advice please?
                                                                                      Paul_B_GB Level 1

                                                                                      Lightroom 6.3 (standalone version) using 11260757.SRW:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      When shift double clicking on the whites slider, it sets it at -100

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I suppose the workaround when that happens is to just set the slider manually for now.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I found the monitor driver for my monitor (lg flatron w2243s) - I installed it and there's no difference.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I really think my issue was myself assuming that the contrast slider was supposed to be used for correcting overall image contrast, instead of my new method of setting the whites and blacks sliders instead. I would imagine the problem is magnified by the fact that Lightroom seems to render the default Raws with a bit more exposure compared to the cameras Jpegs. This means all the correctly exposed camera files (ie Raw) are a bit overexposed when opened in Lightroom including in the shadows and midtones. This is what makes the image/s look like they need overall contrast adjustment, but end up looking terrible if done via the contrast slider. Shift double clicking on the blacks slider actually produces a negative value lower than the one i would of chosen manually before learning that new trick. This at least seem to reduce the perceived overexposure in the low tones and somewhat midtones (midtones can be corrected with negative exposure slider if needed too). I suppose if i need further low tone exposure reduction then i would imagine some negative shadows would do the trick. In fact i can see myself doing negative blacks, negative exposure and negative highlights too (as the highlights do seem to lack detail too compared to the camera Jpegs) for most of the correctly exposed camera files from this camera.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I've come across a few Raws from this camera where the black points and white points are both already seated where they should be, yet the image still needs overall contrast adjustment. Not too sure what to do with those though atm. Advice would be appreciated.

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