19 Replies Latest reply on Jan 4, 2016 3:14 PM by trshaner

    What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?

    ERobicheaux

      I have my monitor set to D65 (which is a cool/blue tinted white)  for working with images for the web versus D55 or D50 which are more warmer whites for printing. However, I believe that LR uses one specific white regardless of the monitor profiles being used and I think it is a warm white. Is this true? If so, can this be changed?

        • 1. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          The eyedropper maps to neutral output, R=G=B.

           

          How that looks on screen depends on your calibration targets. For print, you will want to set the white point to visually match paper white, in order to get a good screen to print match. Which again depends on your working environment and viewing conditions.

           

          Going for a set value like D55 for print can be misleading. The question is - does monitor white match paper white?

          • 2. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
            ERobicheaux Level 1

            Ok, I'll bite, what temperature is neutral white and will the color dropper always set it to that temperature? When printing I always use the color profile of the paper I will be printing on and set the viewing soft proof to match color paper. At this point, I am more concerned with matching the white which is going to be posted on the internet.

            • 3. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
              dj_paige Level 9

              Neutral grey is not a location on the temperature (blue-yellow) scale, and it is not a location on the tint (green-magenta) scale.

               

              It is a color where the value of the red, green and blue pixels are all equal. In other words, it is some shade of grey, a location on the white-black scale.

              • 4. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                ERobicheaux Level 1

                This is not a helpful answer for one concerned about correctly balancing their images. There has to be a color temperature equivalent.

                • 5. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                  D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  It is a helpful answer because that's the way it works.

                   

                  The temperature / tint readouts in Lr shows what adjustments Lightroom had to do to get neutral/white output. You can always change the sliders if you want warmer/cooler.

                   

                  Again, how that white appears on your screen depends on your calibration targets.

                  • 6. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    This is completely unimportant but the white it sets to is the white in the internal colorspace which is a variant of prophotoRGB but with linear gammas. The values that are read out are modified by a sRGB tone curve. So the values you see are prophotoRGB with a sRGB tone curve. Complex indeed. So nominally the white is defined in D50 since that is what is defined in prophotoRGB. This internal workspace's definition is completely meaningless however, since this is NOT corrected for when you export (i.e. display) to monitor or to a printer or to a file in another color space. What is white in the original (i.e. equal R,G, and B) will still be white in the output even if the output's color space defines another . The D50, D65, standards etc. are not part of the rgb components of the file, they are expectations of viewing conditions, not somehow embedded in the rgb values. Specifically D65 and D50 define standard illuminants. If you calibrate your monitor to D50, your print when viewed with a 5000K light source that approximates the D50 illuminant is more likely to match your monitor. If you were viewing the exact same file with a D65 monitor you would need to illuminate the aforementioned print with a much higher color temperature light. Note that nothing changed in the file you were printing and we even used the exact same print. All you did was change the color temperature of the monitor, which necessitated a change in the viewing light source to make them match.

                     

                    So no, Lightroom doesn't use any specific white. It is not warmer or colder than your monitor profile. It is EXACTLY the same as your monitor profile.

                     

                    P.S. there is an issue with Lightroom and certain canned (i.e. they came with the graphics card or monitor driver) monitor profiles on windows machines where people get strangely warm looking images. This is happening because the monitor profile is corrupt and Lightroom trips up over it. In those cases, you actually get Photoshop to look different from Lightroom, which is a clear indication of a bad monitor profile. Recalibration always solves those issues. I have no clue whether you have this issue, but I just thought I'd make sure.

                    • 7. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                      ERobicheaux Level 1

                      This makes perfect sense to me. Late 2013 Mac Pro with OS 10.11.2, NEC Monitor with SpectraView Calibration. I have three calibrated profiles, D50, D55 and D65 depending on what I am working with. When using D65 for web images, and use the color picker, I obtain a very warm white and it makes sense that this white would be around D50.

                      • 8. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        What do you mean by "use the color picker"? Are you sampling what you see in Lightroom from another program? What program? Does it understand color management? When you switch profiles, do you make sure to restart Lightroom?

                        • 9. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                          ERobicheaux Level 1

                          No other program, just using the color picker to neutralize the image for snow:

                           

                          Here is the image before using the LR color picker:

                          Color sample A-1.jpg

                           

                          Here is after:

                           

                          Color sample B-1.jpg

                           

                          This white looks slightly warm to me.

                          • 10. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                            Hal P Anderson Level 6

                            I loaded your image into LR.

                             

                            The snow in the street is dead neutral. R, G, and B are exactly equal. You can see that in the readout below the histogram when you place your cursor on it. The snow on the sidewalk in front of the store may be a trifle on the warm side, but it may be picking up the colour of the light from the interior.

                             

                            So, no, I don't think that LR is making your whites slightly warm.

                            • 11. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                              D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              It's not even necessary to measure RGB values here.

                               

                              All you need to do is look at the images against the neutral backdrop of this website. Clearly "after" is dead neutral.

                              • 12. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Yeah it is completely neutral indeed. I tasted the images in Photoshop and the corrected one in the snow areas is completely equal R,G, and B values.

                                • 13. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                  ERobicheaux Level 1

                                  An interesting discussion. Took the picture I attached and compared to a new file with a white background generated in PS. Other than the brightness value, it was neutral white, bumped the brightness up and compared the two. Looked darn close. Thought about the situation fore a while and decided to measure the ambient light of my work area. It surprised me as it was quite cold which, I believe would give me the impression that the monitor white was warm....

                                  • 14. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Yeah that will certainly do it. Something to look out for.

                                    • 15. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                      D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      ERobicheaux wrote:

                                       

                                      decided to measure the ambient light of my work area. It surprised me as it was quite cold which, I believe would give me the impression that the monitor white was warm....

                                       

                                      Which is what I referred to in post #1:

                                      For print, you will want to set the white point to visually match paper white, in order to get a good screen to print match. Which again depends on your working environment and viewing conditions.
                                      • 16. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        ERobicheaux wrote:

                                         

                                        This makes perfect sense to me. Late 2013 Mac Pro with OS 10.11.2, NEC Monitor with SpectraView Calibration. I have three calibrated profiles, D50, D55 and D65 depending on what I am working with. When using D65 for web images, and use the color picker, I obtain a very warm white and it makes sense that this white would be around D50.

                                        What NEC model monitor you are using? If one of the newer models such as the NEC PA272w with GB-R LED backlight you may be experiencing a visual phenomenon called metamerism failure. Monitors with CCFL or WLED backlights will appear "cooler" than a GB-R LED backlight monitor due to having higher spectral energy in the green and blue wavelengths (respectively). NEC provides a metamerism control to help with screen matching in dual-display configurations, but it's only accessable using MultiProfiler. When I first purchased a GB-R backlight NEC monitor (PA272w) the 6500K calibrated white point looked noticeably "warm" compared to the 6500K calibrated white point on my CCFL backlight monitor. The NEC Metamerism control does make the two displays look closer, but ultimately I get better print matching on the NEC PA272w with it unchecked (OFF). YMMV.....

                                         

                                        • 17. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                          ERobicheaux Level 1

                                          VERY Interesting. Much appreciated. It is a PA271W

                                          • 18. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                            D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            IMO the white point should be set visually, letting the numbers fall wherever they want. That means adjusting blue/yellow as well as green/magenta.

                                             

                                            As I've said a few times by now - monitor white should be set so that it matches paper white, under the given viewing conditions.

                                            • 19. Re: What white temperature does the LR eyedropper set white to?
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              ERobicheaux wrote:

                                               

                                              VERY Interesting. Much appreciated. It is a PA271W

                                              The PA271w uses a CCFL backlight and includes the Metamerism control. You can try it and see if it helps with print matching, but it's normally used to help match screen rendering in a dual-display config or on two separate systems.