22 Replies Latest reply on Jan 13, 2016 3:04 AM by Peter Spier

    InDesign CS4 Problem

    harfad Level 1

      I have very unusual problem. InDesign usually starts a new document on the right-hand page (odd page numbers) unless you intentionally change it to be otherwise. I have a book chapter that has unintentionally gone the other way! It starts on an even number (left page) instead of on the right-hand page as it is supposed to be. I have some ideas of what I did wrong that might have caused it to happen, but my problem now is how to fix it. Any suggestions will appreciated.

        • 1. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          When you say book, do you mean a collection of .indd files accessed through a .indb file? If so, it sounds like you need to add a blank page.

          • 2. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
            harfad Level 1

            I will explain what I think I did wrong that caused it to happen. I wanted to be able to view the document one page at a time rather than as a two-page spread. I looked it up on the Internet, and found a suggestion to go to File, Document Setup, and untick the box that says "Facing Pages". I did that and it worked! I was able to view the document one page at a time, instead of as a two-page spread. But it seems to have caused this problem as well. It changed the setting of the document somehow so that it starts on an even numbered page (left page) instead of the usual right-hand page. But ticking the "Facing Pages" box back again doesn't fix the problem.

            • 3. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
              harfad Level 1

              Thank you. Yes, it is a book file with several chapters, one of which has gone wrong that way! I did think of solving the problem the way you suggested; but what I really want is getting back the way it was before, with the file first page automatically starting on the right (odd numbered) page.

              • 4. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                Go back to facing pages and hope you haven't hopelessly cluttered your document with re-asserted master objects on the even pages.  When you turned off facing pages ID assigned the right-hand half of your master to all pages.

                 

                As far as what side the chapter starts on, that will be determined by the logical page number assigned when you synchronize the numbering. If the previous chapter ended on the right, the only way the next chapter can also start on the right is to add a blank page.

                • 5. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                  harfad Level 1

                  Peter Spier wrote:

                   

                  Go back to facing pages and hope you haven't hopelessly cluttered your document with re-asserted master objects on the even pages.  When you turned off facing pages ID assigned the right-hand half of your master to all pages.

                   

                  It hasn't caused any other problems. When I went back and ticked the "Facing Pages" box again, everything went back to normal, except the problem described above. Normally when you create a new document, the page arrangements look like this:

                  InD1.png

                  Or if it is in the middle of the book it looks something like this:

                  InD2.png

                  But the chapter I am having a problem with looks like this:

                  InD3.png

                  The first page is on the left rather than on the right. I want the last one to look like the first two, but I can't figure out how to do it.

                  Peter Spier wrote:

                   

                  As far as what side the chapter starts on, that will be determined by the logical page number assigned when you synchronize the numbering. If the previous chapter ended on the right, the only way the next chapter can also start on the right is to add a blank page.

                  That is not really true. When you create a new document in InDesign as part of a book file, it automatically puts the first page of the document (or chapter) on the right side of a two-page spread, regardless of the sequential numbering of the previous pages. If the last chapter ends in an odd page number, it automatically inserts a blank page in the book so your next chapter always starts on the right page of a spread. It always looks like the first two examples shown above, never like the third. I want to make the third one to look like the first two, but I can't figure out how to do it.

                  • 6. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    It starts on the left because the first page has an even number. What's the number of the last page in the previous document?

                    • 7. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                      harfad Level 1

                      Peter Spier wrote:

                       

                      It starts on the left because the first page has an even number. . . .

                      That is not true. That is not how it works. See explanation in my previous post.

                      • 8. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Unless you disable page shuffling, or use a right-to-left binding, InDesign puts even pages on the left and odd pages on the right. In the screen shot, your document starts on page 4.

                        • 9. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                          harfad Level 1

                          Peter Spier wrote:

                           

                          Unless you disable page shuffling, or use a right-to-left binding, InDesign puts even pages on the left and odd pages on the right. In the screen shot, your document starts on page 4.

                          I admit that it was a long time ago that I messed about with InDesign, and I have forgotten quite a lot about it. But as far as I can recall, InDesign always puts the first page of a new chapter on the right hand side of a page spread, regardless of what page number the previous chapter ends in. If you want it to start on the left page, you have to force it to do that by overriding that automatic feature.

                          • 10. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Re-read what I said about numbering. That's how it works.

                            • 11. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                              harfad Level 1

                              Have a look at this link, and tell me what you think:

                               

                              http://www.russellviers.com/yabb/cinema3/allow_pages_to_shuffle.html

                              • 12. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                That shows you how to turn off page shuffling, which is what I said earlier is the only way to get ID to reverse page number positions across the spine.

                                 

                                But your REALLY don't want to do that in a book. Your readers will accept chapters that start on either page, or they will accept blank pages, but they will hate you if the page numbering flip-flops.

                                • 13. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                  harfad Level 1

                                  Peter Spier wrote:

                                   

                                  That shows you how to turn off page shuffling, which is what I said earlier is the only way to get ID to reverse page number positions across the spine.

                                  Thanks, sorry for the delay in replying. What I am trying to do is to stop that reverse taking place. I was pointing out that the only way to do that in InDesign is to override that feature, as shown in that video.

                                  But your REALLY don't want to do that in a book. Your readers will accept chapters that start on either page, or they will accept blank pages, but they will hate you if the page numbering flip-flops.

                                  That is what I am trying to avoid. The traditional book layout is that a new chapter always starts on the right hand side of a two page spread; or on an odd numbered page. If the previous chapter ends on an odd number (right hand page), a blank page is automatically inserted on the following page so that the new chapter starts on an odd numbered page. As far as I recall InDesign does that automatically when you start a new chapter in a book. It should not be necessary to manually add a blank page at the end of the last chapter for that to happen. But like I said, it has been a long time since I played around with InDesign, and I have forgotten a lot of how it works, and it could be that I am mistaken about that.

                                  • 14. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    InDesign ONLY starts document on the right if the first page carries an odd number. Clearly the previous document in your book ended on a right-hand page, and the ONLY way to force ID to make the next chapter start on the right is to add a blank page.

                                    • 15. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                      Maybe you'll understand this better if you try a physical model....

                                       

                                      Take a sheet of paper and fold it in half so you have 4 panels, like the pages of a book. label them 1-4 in consecutive order, with 1 on the first right hand page. Open the paper so you see pages 2 & 3. Now flip page 3 onto page 2. Can page 4 be on the right?

                                      • 16. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                        harfad Level 1

                                        Peter Spier wrote:

                                         

                                        InDesign ONLY starts document on the right if the first page carries an odd number. Clearly the previous document in your book ended on a right-hand page, and the ONLY way to force ID to make the next chapter start on the right is to add a blank page.

                                        Thank you. Since I am not an expert, I will take your word for it that that is the case; and if I discover something different later on, I will come back here and tell you! I consider this question satisfactorily answered.

                                        • 17. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                          smoothsea Level 3

                                          Hi,

                                           

                                          As you consider this question "satisfactorily answered" (??!!) then it would be nice if you could mark Peter's answer as such. This thread represents quite a lot of effort on his part to help you understand this concept.

                                           

                                          Regards,

                                           

                                          Malcolm

                                          • 18. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                            harfad Level 1

                                            That was not the question. The question was whether InDesign automatically adds a blank page at the end of a chapter that ends on the right side of a spread in order to force the next chapter to start on the right side of the spread, or whether you have to do that manually. My impression had been that it does that automatically for you, unless you deliberately override that feature.

                                            • 19. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                              harfad Level 1

                                              smoothsea wrote:

                                               

                                              Hi,

                                               

                                              As you consider this question "satisfactorily answered" (??!!) then it would be nice if you could mark Peter's answer as such. This thread represents quite a lot of effort on his part to help you understand this concept.

                                               

                                              Regards,

                                              Malcolm

                                              Thank you. I will do that when the "moderation" of my last post has been completed.

                                              • 20. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                I think we've had some semantic difficulties here.

                                                 

                                                It's possible to get ID to "add" the blank page for you automatically if you use a paragraph style for the first paragraph that appears in your chapter that has, as part of the style definition, a Keep Option set to Start On Next Odd page, but this doesn't change how InDesign behaves regarding positioning and page numbers. What happens is your threaded text will pushed to the next available page that matches the keep option, but that means that your text is shifting on the existing pages, not that a new page is being created. Non-text objects, and the original first text frame, will still be present on the left-hand page so there is not a true blank page, and your text will potentially go into overset at the end of this file, requiring you to add a page there (or at the beginning, shifting the pages so the text flows back into the original frames).

                                                 

                                                So there really is no escape from the necessity to add that page someplace, and in my opinion, if you want all chapters to start on the right, all files should have an even number of pages. If that means adding a blank page to the end of a file to keep the page count even, that's what you should do.

                                                • 21. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Hi harfad and Peter,

                                                  I did not read everything in this thread, therefore I could be wrong with suggesting the following:

                                                  Wouldn't help using the "Pagenumbering Options" of an InDesign Book file help in this case?

                                                   

                                                  Create an InDesign Book file *.indb, load all your needed documents in the right order, select all documents in the panel, invoke the panel menu "Pagenumbering Options".

                                                   

                                                  All the documents have an odd number of pages:

                                                  (German InDesign, sorry)

                                                   

                                                  1-BookFile-All-Docs-Odd-Length.png

                                                   

                                                  Change the settings before hitting OK to:

                                                  [x] "Start on next odd page"
                                                  [x] "Include empty pages"

                                                  (I'm not exactly sure, if that is translated right from my German version)

                                                  2-UsePageNumberingOptions.png

                                                   

                                                  Here the result:

                                                  3-AfterAddingPages.png

                                                   

                                                  But as a said, I'm not sure, if that is applicable in this special case here…

                                                   

                                                  Uwe

                                                  • 22. Re: InDesign CS4 Problem
                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                    Thank you Uwe, I think you are 100% correct -- it's been years since I visited that dialog.

                                                     

                                                    That does, indeed, automatically add the blank page to the end of any odd-page-count file.