25 Replies Latest reply on Jan 24, 2016 12:41 PM by Stephen_A_Marsh

    Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale

    simoncheli14 Level 1

      Hello. I have question about crop marks. When you create PDF, crop marks was in CMYK, how I can change crop marks in only black colour? I know is possible to create all pdf in grayscale, but I need only crop marks if is possible? This is important to digital printing, because when you print something in BLACK and you have crop marks in cmyk, price of print is expensive!

       

      Thank you.

      Simon

        • 1. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          This is a long-standing feature request of mine, but currently the only way to get K-only crop marks other than export to grayscale is to add them manually.

          • 2. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
            simoncheli14 Level 1

            This is problem, when you working with book and, you must manual put crops to all pages. Maybe if put in master page and document size change to large to put crop marks in file and then export.

            • 3. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              You definitely want them on a master page. If you have more than one master page, base them all on a master page where you put the marks, then there is only one place to adjust them in case of a page size change.

              • 4. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                Hi Simon and Peter,

                 

                Sergey Anosov - MakeCropMarks.jsx

                • 5. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Obi-wan, I don't think that helps as it still uses Registration color for the marks. The intent here is to have the marks only on the K plate so they don't make a color click charge on digital equipment when printing the black-only pages of a mixed color/B&W document.

                  • 6. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                    Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                    Peter,

                     

                    It's a .jsx script file. So, simply modify it - line 1704:

                     

                    Capture d’écran 2016-01-20 à 11.57.31.png

                     

                    Result:

                    Capture d’écran 2016-01-20 à 11.59.05.png

                     

                     

                    • 7. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Glad you had time to read 1704 lines of code to find that (and know how to read, and modify, it). There is no certainty that the OP could do that without help.

                       

                      And to clarify, this script will add the marks for you on a page, but does not modify InDesign's automatic marks on export.

                      • 8. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                        Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                        Aha! Only made a research on "Registration" color!

                         

                        Yes for "add", No for "modify"! 

                        • 9. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                          Luke Jennings Level 4

                          You can add black only crop marks with an imposition program. Also, the Acrobat plug-in PitStop can change the crop marks to black only.

                          • 10. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                            simoncheli14 Level 1

                            Hi guys.

                            Yes I know about PitStop,, we will try with konica minolta program to convert.

                            • 11. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Try this AppleScript—it doesn't alter the document:

                               

                              http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/CustomCrops.zip

                               

                              Haven't done much testing so check that the exported PDF is correct. Asks for a destination folder—this is the dialog:

                               

                              Screen Shot 2016-01-20 at 3.47.17 PM.png

                              • 12. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                The marks in Rob’s script are 0c0m0y100k in CMYK colour mode.

                                 

                                If the copier/network printer/press DFE/RIP sees these as still being colour due to the colour model and not the content, then a colour click would be charged.

                                 

                                In addition to PitStop Pro, Acrobat Pro has a fixup to change registration/all “colour” to black only, however it is broken in later versions of Acrobat Pro, the last working version that I recall was either 8 or 9. It was broken in X and XI – can’t recall what the status is in DC.

                                 

                                I believe that many override the output at the RIP/DFE to ensure that the correct click is generated.

                                • 13. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  The marks in Rob’s script are 0c0m0y100k in CMYK colour mode.

                                   

                                  Stephen, that could be a problem, but then any use of default [Black] on a page would also be a CMYK object. The best you could do is spec all fills and strokes as a black spot color and also use that as the reg marks. It would be possible to create a script that asks for a page range, exports both color and grayscale, and reassembles for the final PDF.

                                  • 14. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    Why would 0/0/0/100 be more of a problem for marks than for text?

                                    • 15. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                      Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                      Agreed Rob, as InDesign does not have a true native grayscale mode, black only is always going to be CMYK black only. However InDesign can pass through true grayscale mode data if it is imported from say Photoshop or a PDF.

                                      • 16. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                        Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                        Peter, it should not be more of a problem. If the RIP/DFE sees the file as containing colour, then it is a colour click. I believe that this is why some fix the PDF, while others override at the print controller.

                                        • 17. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                          Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                          I can provide some test files, If somebody has easy access to a test machine and is willing to verify which test file registers as a colour or mono click.

                                          • 18. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                            Luke Jennings Level 4

                                            I found an issue a few people might find interesting. I use Kodak Preps for imposing pages for digital (Indigo) output. If I have a black only PDF with registration color crop marks, offset .125", placed into Preps with the Preps bleed set at .125", the Indigo output will be 4C. If the Preps bleed is reduced to .124" the output will be black only. Seems to be a Preps bug. I often export PDFs without cropmarks (including bleed) and use the Acrobat preference "show art, trim and bleed boxes" to show me the page size.

                                            Steve, sorry, I don't have time to test your files today.

                                            • 19. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              However InDesign can pass through true grayscale mode data if it is imported from say Photoshop or a PDF.

                                              Right, but you still have the text and page items to consider.

                                              • 20. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                                Yes, native page content is an issue.

                                                 

                                                I Like your idea of a PDF export script on steroids.

                                                 

                                                Nominate the colour pages vs grayscale. Colour is exported using marks in rego/all. Grayscale has marks in 0cmy100k and these pages are exported  to PDF with a conversion to grayscale. Need to ensure that 0cmy100k actually results in 100% grayscale.

                                                 

                                                Not sure about combining the separate PDF files though.

                                                 

                                                Seems easier to use Acrobat Pro  or PitStop Pro. The big deal is getting marks that are not in rego.

                                                • 21. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  When this has come up in the past, it's been the use of the 4-color registration color that causes the problem—black only text pages without crops don't get charged extra.

                                                   

                                                  If I export a PDF/X-4 converting to grayscale with printer marks, AcrobatPro DC shows the page items as DeviceGray, but the crop marks are not DeviceGray—Object Inspector shows them as Separation All.

                                                   

                                                  Also, the colorbars preview as gray (because of the Output Intent), but inspector tells me they are DeviceCMYK. So a script that combines gray and color pages wouldn't change the marks to grayscale in DC.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  The page item

                                                   

                                                  object.png

                                                  The color bars

                                                  cbars.png

                                                   

                                                  The crop marks

                                                  crops.png

                                                  • 22. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                    Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                                    When this has come up in the past, it's been the use of the 4-color registration color that causes the problem—black only text pages without crops don't get charged extra.

                                                     

                                                    Agreed Rob. As recent versions of Acrobat Pro has had a broken preflight single fix, it has only been with PDF tools such as Enfocus PitStop that one has been able to change the crops.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    If I export a PDF/X-4 converting to grayscale with printer marks, AcrobatPro DC shows the page items as DeviceGray, but the crop marks are not DeviceGray—Object Inspector shows them as Separation All.

                                                     

                                                    Agreed, this is the issue as stated previously.

                                                     

                                                    If one uses a script to create custom crops, then the marks can be exported in CMYK 100cmyk or 0cmy100k and then the marks can actually be converted without using third party software (forgetting the fact that Adobe license Callas pdfToolbox preflights and fixes for use in Acrobat Pro).

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Also, the colorbars preview as gray (because of the Output Intent), but inspector tells me they are DeviceCMYK. So a script that combines gray and color pages wouldn't change the marks to grayscale in DC.

                                                     

                                                    As long as one does not use InDesign generated colour bars, then registration colour will not be an issue (presuming that one exports with custom crop marks or no crops). For many the colour bars applied to single pages are useless fluff that is stripped away during imposition, some even feel this way about trim/crop marks too. As long as the pages have correct page boxes or are centred with even bleed they can impose without marks and find that single page marks just get in the way.

                                                    • 23. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                      MW Design Level 4

                                                      Hi Rob,

                                                       

                                                      I haven't ever had to face this issue. But I have read this and other threads with interest.

                                                       

                                                      Though the crop marks in the below are still internally defined as separation all as you show, with only a single black plate is it an issue?

                                                       

                                                      Capture-000024.png

                                                       

                                                      Mike

                                                      • 24. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Stephen brought up the question as to whether it's the color space of the marks or is it simply a matter of no CMY ink being output that determines an extra cost. I've never printed a job that's priced that way so I wouldn't know. If you inspect the marks they are always defined as Separation All so in your example if you choose a CMYK profile as the Simulation profile the marks change to 100|100|100|100. I'm guessing the output is always to CMYK, so the marks will always output as 4-color.

                                                         

                                                        A note on my script, it gets around some problems with drawing the marks on the document's master pages. I don't think it would be possible to draw marks correctly for facing page spreads, because you'll get marks on the trim edges at the spine of the live pages.

                                                        • 25. Re: Crop mark from CMYK to grayscale
                                                          Stephen_A_Marsh Adobe Community Professional

                                                          If anybody is interested in answering how click rates are triggered, I have four test files in a 2mb .zip package for testing:

                                                           

                                                          https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ke2g0eh3idw0ah/Click-Charge-Test-x4.zip?dl=0

                                                           

                                                               crops in separation black.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

                                                           

                                                               crops in gray.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

                                                           

                                                               crops in 0cmy100k.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

                                                           

                                                               crops in rego.pdf = is this handled as a mono or colour click charge?

                                                           


                                                          Please state your RIP/DFE make and model version and your printer/press etc.