First note that AVI is not a specific format. AVIs can use any of thousands of codecs or be uncompressed, so its file size can vary wildly as well as its compatibility with Premiere Elements.
That said, I assume you're using a digitizer that's saving your video as DV-AVIs, which is a good format for editable video DV-AVIs use about 12 gigs of space for every hour of footage.
It's also a standard resolution format (720x480 pixels) which is just fine for VHS. In fact, it's much better than VHS, which is about half that resolution.
Once you've captured and edited, your video, I'd save it as DVD video. DVD video is more like 5 gigabytes for each hour of run time. It still looks very good and, in a pinch, you can even pull it into Premiere Elements and edit it.
I don't know if you have the ability to just capture your VHS video as DVD video, but that will save you a step. (You don't say how you're capturing and digitizing your VHS.) Otherwise, you can bring your DV AVIs into Premiere Elements, edit it if you'd like and output DVD files from there. Then you can throw out the original DV AVI capture.
To add to the conversation:
If you mean upscaling vhs footage to Bluray format: that is not an option.
However you can store SD footage in mpeg2 or h.264 on a Bluray video disk or even as data disk.
This will give you way more storage room. 25-50 gigs.
Thank you Steve and Ann. I forget you guys are not mind readers lol. I apologize for not including more info.
These VHS video clips have already been run through PE. Imported through Pyro AV link, trimmed, and saved via the share computer DV AVI Standard at the end of PE. GSpot says they are DV Type 2 AVI, PCM Audio, DVC/DV Video, 720X480 DVD Format 4:3.
I would like to reclaim some hard drive space by bringing these clips back into PE and saving/Share Computer as MPEG-2 or H.264 whichever would be the least computer stressful, still maintain the best quality, and convert to DVD easily at a later date. For the remaining tapes I have yet to get to digital, I would like to bring them in to PE and save them as MPEG-2 or H.264 so less reconverting. Maybe I can't save as H.264 but I read posts where converting to share for YouTube in MP4. Are not H.264 and MP4 the same thing? H.264 used to make Blu Ray discs? Sorry I'm video illiterate.
Ann was saying Blu Ray format. What format is that? Also, I can store SD footage, mpeg or 264 to video disc. Can I not save that to external hard drive via the Share Computer option?
BluRay format is great for high-def video -- but your video is standard DV-AVI.
I say output the videos as either DVDs or as DVD-ready MPEGs. Either format will give you nice playback and will allow you the option of pulling the file back into Premiere Elements if you want to use it in a project. These formats create video files that are about 1/5 the size of DVD-AVIs.
In version 11, go to Publish & Share/Computer/MPEG with the 720x480 DVD preset (or 720x576 DVD if your video is PAL).
Thank you for your response. It does seem like H.264 is more difficult to work with in posts that I've read. I was just trying to find out if you guys had converted any vhs DV-AVI to AVCHD Bllu Ray? to see if the video was any crisper in a Blu Ray player. A multi step process? Or not worth the conversion process. I understand vhs is vhs but technology has improved quite a bit. PrE9 has the option to "sharpen" the video but can make the video worse.
Anyway, a couple more questions. Wide screen presets are 16:9 video? I should stick with the standard preset to share the DV-AVI to computer DVD video? The target bitrate? Minimum, maximum, what should they be? I can't remember what the default rates are but I remember 8000kbps in many of the posts I've read, for a maximum. Do you guys use the 2 pass conversion? When you use the "fit to Disc" option what bitrate do you try to stay with?
You said MPEG-2 would be about 1/5th the size of the DV-AVI. The bitrate on my AVI seems to be in the 29,000 kbps rate range. That would make the MPEG-2 a little under 6000. Is this about what you were thinking on a variable bitrate?
Sorry, I'm feeling a little stupid. Thanks for the help.
First me just say again that VHS is VHS. It's a very low quality, low resolution (about 333x480) medium by today's standards, so there's only so much you can do with it. Upscaling it to BluRay (1920x1080) isn't going to make it any better. In fact, it's just going to create much bigger, blurrier files.
Likewise, the video is 4:3 by nature. The only way to make it 16:9 is to either add black bars to the side or crop off the top and bottom of the picture, and I doubt you want to do either of those.
I suppose you could save it as a 640x480 MP4 if you'd like. It may make your files a little smaller, but not much -- and without any improvement in "quality". So that's your call. And that's about at an 8k bitrate. But, again, don't sweat too much whether its constant bitrate or variable or multi-pass or single pass. This is just VHS. It's still going to look like 13" TV from 1990. Make sense?
It never occurred to me that BluRay had to be 1920x1080. Than would definitely distort things. I was still thinking in 720x480 terms. But then I have never researched HD because not many of my family have a BluRay player.
True I don't want black bars. I was just wanting to confirm that the widescreen designation meant a 16:9 ratio.
Ok, so I'm going to save as MPEG-2 instead of messing with MP4. If any one particular project required MP4 the mpeg files could be converted anyway. The reason I asked about multi-pass and variable bitrate has to do with the huge amount of clips to convert, which would be less stressful on the computer. I guess I will look at my Sony Camcorder MPEG-2 clips to see what the bitrate is on them. They are 16:9 but I don't know as I will be combining any VHS footage with newer stuff.
Thank you again
Actually you can put 720x480 on a bluray disk and it will play as SD.
But you need a more advanced authoring program.
Thank you Ann
Your post says 2 AM on my end. Are you just a night owl or in a different country than the U.S.? I'm on mountain time in Oregon.
I gather that it's a moot point from what Steve is saying, but just out of curiosity has anyone done that with the same DV-AVI clip and compared a standard disc with BluRay disc in a BluRay player? Supposedly a BluRay player upscales? a standard disc for a better picture
For a final question, I was wondering if an external program such as HandBrake would be a quicker solution to convert the DV-AVI clips I already have saved, rather than creating a bunch of new projects with PrE. Keeping in mind to preserve as much quality as possible and saving to MPEG-2. I don't know what codecs each program uses to get comparable results.
There is an whole continent and an ocean between us and yes I am also a night owl. I am from Holland.
Yes the advantage of a bd-player is it upscales the footage but that is for a bd video disk. The footage will be stored as mpeg2 or H.264 on the disk and not as dv-avi.
You can also archive dv-avi on a bd disk, but this would be a bd rom disk and not a video disk. Cannot play it on bd player just pc or mac.
Do you wear the wooden shoes?
I think BluRay is a future thing. I downloaded HandBrake but it looks like greek to me. I'm hoping to google some screenshots of what settings to use to convert to MPEG-2. Thanks for your input
Haha, no I wear 'Jesus Nikes'
Bluray is not the future, it is here already. I have been make BD for quite a few years now.
Ultra HD disk are on the verge of being introduced
You cannot use Handbrake to convert to mpeg2 only mp4 or mkv.
Nice to meet you.
I have worked with PSE for a over a decade - but I am rather new to Premiere Elements; therefore I hope that I may ask you to elaborate on the below text of yours:
I say output the videos as either DVDs or as DVD-ready MPEGs.
Either format will give you nice playback and will allow you the option of pulling the file back into Premiere Elements if you want to use it in a project. These formats create video files that are about 1/5 the size of DVD-AVIs.
Answers and arguments which I have received so far (please state your view if the situation is different) are that if one has the .vob:s on the DVD:s, one cannot use them without (having to import them to the timeline in PRE, and then ...) re-encoding them once more ...
(1) When using Premiere Elements, is that true or not?
(2) What I am wondering - and this the main issue which I am contemplating right now: How much will you loose in Viewing-quality when re-encoding the vob:s, when they already have been encoded once in e.g. PRE? Additionally when taken into account that they will be viewed on a TV 1920 x 1080p (PAL)? Will the viewer perceive it?
One opinion stated that, as one has lost 4/5 of the information already, DVD/MPEG-2 was not suitable for archiving nor re-encoding. According to your deep experience is that true or false? Please elaborate.
(My version today is PRE 9. Later during this year I will migrate to PRE 13.)
As I'm in the middle of deciding how to archive my work in Premiere Elements - thank you for your and everyone's cooperation!
You certainly can use VOBs and DVD video in a Premiere Elements project! It's standard definition but, in my experience, it looks very good. No noticeable loss of quality -- although I'm sure there is SOME loss of quality, since you're coming from a highly compressed source. But none that you or anyone else is likely to notice.
Some day I may try a side-by-side comparison of a video from a miniDV camcorder and the same video ripped from a DVD. But, as I've said, I've used DVD video a number of times in my projects and no one could tell.
But feel free to do a test run yourself. I'd love to hear your results.
Hello again Steve, Everyone,
Thank you for your positive and prompt response. I do appreciate it!
This is certainly good news. I had an idea in the beginning that I was going to, in a re-usable fashion, work with e.g. DVD/vob:s. But after I read the arguments on the Internet (about the 4/5 loss), I had more or less rolled it out, and reckoned - based on another review - that re-encoding already encoded items (in this case vob:s) would not be a good thing due to loss of viewing-qualty.
I've a thorough experience of Photoshop Elements, however ... I'm rather new to Premiere Elements (even if I have done a relatively advanced wedding video with sound, which the family was happy about). What I among things learned during that project, is that I need to look more into the Final archiving possibilities in connection with PRE, as well as video in general.
When I (so to speak) have you on the line, hope I may ask you (and everyone else) one final question on the topic of final archiving in connection with PRE, please.
When I did the wedding video above with 200 still images and sound, I did not know about how to implement a good final archiving strategy when working with PRE. For my present project I wonder - as I am kind of struggling (in a positive way ) with the step learning curve concerning the operation of PRE:
What do you believe is best based on your deep experience:
(1) I go for the DVD/vob:s alternative concerning my final archives?
(2) I prioritize and sit down and learn the archiving feature of Premiere Elements?
(3) Do it in another fashion, which I do not know about today, but you foresee?
Thank for your cooperation and pleasant answer Steve! It's interesting to learn more about Premiere Elements, and also to see how to combine it with the power of Photoshop Elements. All the best from Scandinavia!
Nike presumes Jesus would have worn these shoes if they had been in business back then? lol
I just meant that I'm not going to do any BluRay for a while. Stick to SD
My nephew thought that I could use handbrake to convert but I guess not. I used MpegStreamclip to convert some as per Steve's instructions in another post but they came out different somehow than some of the other MPEG-2's I had saved. I may try that again with different settings.
It is my understanding that when I import a vhs tape and save it through PRE9 it has extra frames added to it to work with editing in the program. If I save it as DV-AVI it keeps those extra frames and consumes more space on my hard drives. If I convert and save it as MPEG-2 it removes the extra frames and only takes up 1/5th of the space as the AVI but there is a negligible loss in quality if any. If I want to bring the MPEG back into a project at a later date PRE just adds some extra frames back in for use in editing, but doesn't change the original MPEG files.
VOB's are MPEG-2 at least mine are. So there's no difference in using a DVD in a project or adding just MPEG-2's. PRE will add frames in the project to work with for editing. But if I start converting to MP4 H.264's or whatever it gets more complicated. If I use saved DV-AVI in a project, PRE doesn't have to add any frames because they are already there. Less labor intensive for PRE and the computer. If you have plenty of hard drives no problem. But as far as quality loss from the original material there isn't a noticeable difference.
Like I said, this is the way I understand things. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong
Well, it's not so much that extra frames are added. DV-AVIs just have every individual frame (30 per second) represented. MPEGs use i-frames -- about every fifth frame is complete. The frames in between reuse as much video information as possible. That's how the MPEG compression works. And that's why the transition from DV-AVI to MPEG loses some video data. But, when you use an MPEG in a Premiere Elements project, the program interprets it such that it artificially recreates those missing frames.
Thank you Steve,
I missed the first part a little bit. But if I output a DVD or just save clips as MPEG-2, are not the same I-Frames and frames in between being saved ? (presuming the same bitrates are being used). I realize menus and special effects take up some space on a DVD. Or something else happens? I'm just using video but it sounds like the Knight is combining? video's and still pictures so that might be a different sdituation
It's fine to think of VOB/DVD files and MPEG2s as being essentially the same output. They essentially are.
tthank you Steve and Ann,
i'm not sure where to mark this question as answered at least for me. I appreciate the input and the time you spen.
I hope Ann wasn't offended by my take on the Jesus Nike's. I wondered if these posts were translated from her language to English and it was a mis-translation or she posted in English. I just hadn't heard of those Nike's
No I dont use any translator, I type directly into English.
I was pulling Bill's leg a bit.
In our country Jesus Nikes are in fact Teva's, LOL
At the top of this thread there is an option to mark this discussion as question.
Dont know if you can change that. Then you have the option to mark this discussion as answered.
Hello head spin,
Nice to meet you here.
Thank you for your reply and adding information to my decision making process, regarding which final archiving philosophy to go for with Premiere Elements. I appreciate it.
Thanks to All,
LOL on the Nike's.
I thought I was done. Still analyzing bitrates. I have some discs I made using Windows Movie Maker, my Sony Camcorder program, PrE, and a couple other programs. I have been checking with GSpot but no matter which discs I put in it just says 10080 VBR video stream. Do you guys use a simple free program to show minimum, target, and maximum bitrates of DVD discs. I need one simple enough for my brain to comprehend. For some reason MediaInfo sticks in my head but what do you guys use?
As we now are talking about MPEG compression and complete/incomplete frames.
We can set a bit rate: Can someone describe how it is connected to MPEG compression and frames please?
Steve Grisetti skrev:
Well, it's not so much that extra frames are added. DV-AVIs just have every individual frame (30 per second) represented. MPEGs use i-frames -- about every fifth frame is complete. The frames in between reuse as much video information as possible. That's how the MPEG compression works.
Thanks to All,
Still analyzing bitrates. /.../ but what do you guys use?
To answer your call. I use MediaInfo too, like Ann to analyse bit rates (N.B. I haven't used it for DVD:s yet.)
Concerning this tool (and similar tools), you may want to look out for PUP (potentionally unwanted programs).
Once again, I think you may be overthinking all of this, BW.
A bit rate of 8-9 k is pretty standard for DVD-quality MPEGs. And that should be the default setting when you output as I've described.
Steve Grisetti wrote:
Once again, I think you may be overthinking all of this, BW.
"Once again ... overthinking all of this"? What do you mean by that? As both an engineer and an artist, this is an important question to me, concerning my Final-Archive-decision. The loss of 4/5 data was also vital to learn about.
Do you mean that I should not ask this question here?
No, not by any means, BW. I don't at all mean to discourage -- and I hope I didn't come off as flip. I sure didn't mean to.
It's simply that we're talking about VHS, which is a low quality, low resolution medium. And saving it as higher resolution, higher quality MPEG (at its default settings) is really about as good as it's going to look. Give it a try and you'll see. It will look as good as the original.
But increasing bit rate, saving it as a BluRay rather than a DVD, etc., isn't going to do much except give you bigger files. Your video can only look as good as your original footage.
I hadn't looked at this thread for a few days. Was just going to tell Ann I found a readout for data rate on the right side of GSpot (dummy me) so I didn't do MediaInfo yet. But I have some comparisons for you on data rates from Disney VHS tapes I put on DVD which might explain more of what Steve is saying I think. Family VHS might have different rates depending on quality but you can test that out. The .vob files in the finished dvd will tell you data rates. If you haven't done any, import a .vob into your MediaInfo and see.
I imported my VHS into PrE through a Pyro AV-Link video converter. I don't know what you are using but it's important to have a good one. I gather a lot of guys use a Canopus unit. I also think you need to make sure your converter/program saves it as a Type 2 DV-AVI. Some programs and converters do earlier Type 1 and I understand this has different information. Then I took the saved DV-AVI that I had saved out of PrE and ran it through Windows DVD maker. I didn't comprehend at that time how to do menus and stuff in PrE, where the DVD maker was simple. More info on that later if you want, but I can get more complex menus through PrE for family VHS so I"m going to do that some day. Just saving video for now. Here are the results for a few Disney VHS I preserved.
Mary Poppins 139 minutes 3900kbps
Aladdin 92 minutes 6190kbps
Bambi 70 minutes 8000kbps
All of these looked good on my 52" TV when played through my bluray player. I guess I should try them through an older clunk player to see how they look. They were all comparable in quality even though Mary Poppins was over 2 hours long as you can see. Aladdin played more of an older (bars on the side) format and the other two filled the screen on the TV. Aladdin was more saturated with colors also. Bambi had some early parts of the video that were fuzzy. Whether the tape or not, but it also had the highest bitrate.
These figures are just a way of saying that the amount of video you want to put on a DVD will change the bitrate. I have some earlier ones I did of C-VHS tapes and I put too much on the DVD and the data rate was 2100kbps. Terrible quality. I'm going to have to re-do them.
Summing up. The older your cameras were that you took the video with will probably limit quality. 2 head mono vs 5 head stereo. The settings you used to record EP,LP,SP. We used EP because we didn't know we were going to have computers to convert to digital and were cheap on buying tapes lol. The playback machine you are using now will affect quality. One with S-Video output should be a better machine than an older one. I have an old mono machine that I don't use but we didn't know better or have other options. I have a 4 head combo VHS/DVD recorder that has colorstream (component) video out that I use for playback to my Pyro. Better video? Nor sure but better electronics I hope. These factors are part of the reasons I think Steve is saying VHS is VHS. The older tapes may be worse than newer ones and you hope your playback machine and video program can help it look better.
More thoughts but you will have to experiment as others have said. When you share to DVD out the back end of PrE and use the "Fit to Disc" it gives the bitrate to fill the disc in a little window there. I guess I need to ask the moderators if that is at a VBR or not. Anyway if you think it is too low you can put less on the disc. Getting more complex. Not sure what you have thought of already. I'm thinking my PrE puts a max of 8000 and a target of 6000 for default rates if I don't use the fit to disc but can't remember for sure. Haven't been able to do video for a while. too many interruptions and a mix of stuff to sort through on VHS tapes. We just recorded whatever on any tape we could grab lol.
Will you guys correct me if I'm wrong please. Just my take on things
I cannot understand putting so much energy in getting vhs on dvd as you can buy them in bluray, sharp images and beautiful colors. But that is me.
If it were old family movies I can understand but Disney stuff....
Fascinating isn't it. Why do we even bother with home video? I think for me the two key words here are Nostalgia and Memories. I'm approaching 65 and my kids are in their 30's and 40's. I'm not sure how old you are (women don't like to tell ha ha) but we grew up watching Disney together. We watch this old stuff to say "oh look, that's the way we were". Remembering the good times we think.
I have bought some of the newer Disney DVD's. But if you compare them side by side with the detail and color of the original, they are not the same. When I have read reviews on various remastered? old Disney that was a major complaint. People buy the new ones to share old memories.
Actually they were easy to do and helped me with the learning curve on Menus and Scene markers. (The worst part is the wear and tear on the tape player) When importing the tape you don't have to sort through to see what you want to save unless you don't want all the old previews. Just let it run for the length of the movie and stop the import. Go off and do something else if you want while the tape is running unless you think you are going to have glitches. Once you have it on the timeline it's easy to find some places to put some scene markers because it's digital. Zip back and forth through the movie. Find a Menu you like, copy some short clips out of the movie if you want to add animation to the Menus or Scenes and create a DVD that looks like the original (but has the scene markers to go to instead of having to run the tape to where you left off if you didn't watch the whole thing in one sitting)
Other notes. Unless you have a copy program for the newer DVD's do you want to loan them out? You have to remember who you loaned them to and hope they don't get ruined. How many things have you loaned out and had stuff happen. You spend $15 to $30 for each DVD you buy? I always have a spare DVD of what I've made and a copy on my hard drive so I can make more if somebody wants one. Costs me 40 cents for a disc and a case and they can keep it. I don't have to remember anything lol.
I dont mind telIing you or the world I am 61. I have watched Disney with the kids and now grandchild, and she brings along her BD disks to watch at our place...
In the past I have digitized super8 and vhs, just home movies.