21 Replies Latest reply on Feb 17, 2016 2:16 PM by trshaner

    Color space  LR - PS

    hazy238

      Hi,

       

      I have been using PS4 and Bridge for years. Now I finally moved on to PS and  LR CC. So still figuring out how everything works. I encountered to some questions about the color space.  I capture in raw and I have existing files in PS4 in sRGB IEC61966-2.1 8 bit color space (I only realised now that is the worst color space to be in for printing)  I understand that Prophoto Adobe is such a big color space that the monitors wont be able to show all information which means that there will be a discrepancy between screen view and prints. Considering that I do large format prints it's problably best to use Adobe RGB in 16 bit depth.


      I learned that RAW files won't have a color space so I dont need to choose or worry about them and also that LR works in a color space called Meilssa/Prophoto RGB.

      Now I got the following question:

      What will happen with the color space for my existing jpg, tiff and psd filles which I have in PS4  in sRGB IEC61966-2.1 after I add then in LR ? Will it be in converted to Prophoto RGB since this is the color working space of LR  ? If not, will it stay in the original color space. I would like to have those files to stay in the orginal color space and depth. Since I dont want to run the risk of loosing information by converting color spaces.


      Hope someone can help me with this. And do correct me if some of my findings are not correct.


      Many thanks,

      Hazel


        • 1. Re: Color space  LR - PS
          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

          Your sRGB files will be fine - they will not change visually, and will not be affected in any way by LR's ProPhoto working space.

          LR only assigns profiles when you export, and you can then choose sRGB when exporting these files.

          • 2. Re: Color space  LR - PS
            hazy238 Level 1

            Thanks !  Now I got another question. I quite often use different layers of images to create a new image. Now I have some old stock which I have in sRGB but for my new images I would like to use Adobe RGB. Would I have a problem to mix images from different color spaces together ? If yes, does it mean that I have to continue using sRGB even for my new images otherwise I wouldnt be able to use the old and new images together ?

            • 3. Re: Color space  LR - PS
              Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

              This is something I rarely do, but I think dragging an sRGB image into an Adobe RGB image would convert it to Adobe RGB - an image can only have one color space. Depending on your PS color settings, you might get a dialog asking if you want to do this.

              But the colors of the sRGB file would not change, because the sRGB gamut is smaller than Adobe RGB.

              If you drag an Adobe RGB file into an sRGB file, there is a potential of losing colors that are outside the sRGB gamut.

              • 4. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                You can open two or more files as layers in PS using the Photo> Edit In> Open as Layers in Photoshop. The files will be converted to the color space you have chosen in your External Editor Preferences. For best results I suggest using the following settings:

                If you intend to edit the PS TIFF file further in LR save the file in PS without any color profile or bit depth changes. If done with editing you can convert to a color space and file format of your choosing such as sRGB JPEG. This will work with any mix of file type and color space since they are all converted to ProPhoto RGB TIFFs before opening in PS. The color space conversion causes no loss in image quality.

                • 5. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                  hazy238 Level 1

                  Just for my understanding. You are saying that I should open the files as layers in PS and use Tiff and Prophoto. This means that the color space of my files will be converted from  sRGB (old files) and Adobe RGB (new files) to Prophoto. Why do you think that I wont be loosing info by this conversion ? Thought any color space conversion will cause lose. Is it because of the file type TIFF ?

                   

                  Also you are saying after the edits in PS I can convert it in any color space like Adobe RGB PSD. Here I will do another color space conversion. Again why wont I loose info ?

                   

                  And at last. How do I save in PS without any color profile or bit depth changes ? By checking the 'Embed color profile' box ?

                  Screen Shot 2016-02-02 at 09.39.49.png

                  • 6. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                    D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    I'd say you have the right idea hazy. You don't gain anything by converting your old sRGB files - unless you want to do more work on them in a larger color space.

                     

                    If these are existing PSDs I don't really see why you'd need to go through Lightroom at all, except to keep the Lr catalog updated. But if you do, export as Adobe RGB, or change "edit in" to Adobe RGB if you want to use the "open as layers" function. When saving out from Photoshop, color space and bit depth are what they are - the act of saving doesn't change anything. The "embed profile" checkbox should always be checked. Don't even think of unchecking it.

                     

                    ProPhoto has its advantages if you know how to, well, take advantage of them, but it also has serious drawbacks such as compressed shadows making subtle adjustments more difficult. There is no free lunch. Personally I think ProPhoto is overrated and for real world purposes it's rarely needed. Stay with Adobe RGB unless you have problems with gamut clipping and really need the larger gamut.

                    • 7. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                      hazy238 Level 1

                      Thanks D for sheding more light on this issue for me.

                       

                      I have been reading some more and did some testing with exporting /editing files from LR to PS so see whether things are working as I think they should.

                       

                      Now something really confuses me. Problably really silly. But I thought the menu Edit /color settings in PS tells me the color setting of the particuliar file where Im working in. But realise that actually this dialog only tells me how PS will treat files coming in PS. So can you please tel me where I can find the info about the color space of a file in PS ? It must be very obvious but I cant find it anywhere.

                      • 8. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                        D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        The simplest way is to set the notification area at the bottom of the image window. This is sticky and by far the best use for it:

                        profile_2.png

                         

                        Photoshop's color settings are general and deal mostly with defaults. The most important setting there is Color Management Policies. This should always be "Preserve Embedded Profiles". Any other setting equals unpleasant surprises waiting to happen and should only be used if you know what you're doing and are comfortable with the consequences.

                         

                        With this setting (which is default for good reason), the embedded document profile will always override the working space.

                        • 9. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                          Another way to see the profile is to work with the Info panel open. (Window > Info)

                          Check Document profile in the options.

                           

                          Info panel options.png

                          • 10. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Just to clarify. My response in reply #4 was to your question in reply #2 concerning how to open multiple images with different color spaces as layers in PS:

                            hazy238 wrote:

                             

                            Thanks !  Now I got another question. I quite often use different layers of images to create a new image. Now I have some old stock which I have in sRGB but for my new images I would like to use Adobe RGB. Would I have a problem to mix images from different color spaces together ? If yes, does it mean that I have to continue using sRGB even for my new images otherwise I wouldnt be able to use the old and new images together ?

                            All the images must be in the same color space to open them as layers inside PS. So what color space should you use and how should you open them inside PS? All of the image files should be converted to the color space of the file with the widest gamut to prevent gamut clipping in that specific image. Camera raw images are not assigned a color space inside LR and most cameras have a color gamut that exceeds Adobe RGB.  Using ProPhoto RGB color space preserves the full color gamut of the image (i.e. no gamut clipping) when editing in PS. Keep in mind you can only "see" the color gamut of your monitor when viewing images in LR and PS. A standard gamut monitor will be close to sRGB and wide gamut monitor close to Adobe RGB. However, you can use LR & PS Soft Proof to see gamut clipping with different color profiles.

                             

                            As

                             

                            Here's what I use for Color Management Policies inside PS. My working RGB color space is set to Prophoto RGB so any file with a different color space will show the Embedded Profile Mismatch warning. This allow me to use the embedded color space or my preferred ProPhoto RGB color space.

                            • 11. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                              hazy238 Level 1

                              uhmmm.. As I said earlier I thought I would find the color space of my file in 'edit/color settings'

                              Screen Shot 2016-02-02 at 17.42.00.png

                              Above is the color settings in my PS4 so I thought my files are in sRGS IEC61966-2.1 and now with your help I figured out its not the case. They are in Adobe RGB which is good !!! That safe me a lot of trouble. 

                               

                              I have been looking in differnt files and didnt find one with above color space yet. So I was wondering what above setting does. I would think that when I open a raw file and save it as any type of file (psd, jpg, tiff) that the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 will be applied since RAW files doesnt have a color profile becuase otherwise the preserve embedded profile will be used. Or am i missing something here ? I checked my camera and the setting is on adobe RGB, does it got something to do with this ?

                               

                               

                              trshaner, how do you open a file directly in PS. Do you mean though menu file/open and go through the browser and browse through brigade ? Am I right ? So far I have only opened files in PS through LR

                              • 12. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                hazy238 wrote:

                                 

                                Above is the color settings in my PS4 so I thought my files are in sRGS IEC61966-2.1 and now with your help I figured out its not the case. They are in Adobe RGB which is good !!! That safe me a lot of trouble.

                                 

                                I have been looking in differnt files and didnt find one with above color space yet. So I was wondering what above setting does.

                                That setting is for your "preferred" Working Color Space. When you create a "new" file that is the default setting. When you have 'Profile Mismatches' and 'Missing Profiles'  warnings checked as in my reply #10 it will also tell you when a file is being opened with a different color space. Since you have a lot of existing Adobe RGB files I suggest using that as your RGB Working Space setting and not sRGB!

                                 

                                hazy238 wrote:

                                I would think that when I open a raw file and save it as any type of file (psd, jpg, tiff) that the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 will be applied since RAW files doesnt have a color profile becuase otherwise the preserve embedded profile will be used.

                                You can only "open" a camera raw file in PS using Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) plugin. At the bottom of the plugin window you will see this:

                                 

                                Click on the text and you will see this:

                                That is where you set your color space and bit depth preference for raw files using ACR. In LR that option is under Preferences> External Editing or in Export> File Settings> Color Space.

                                 

                                hazy238 wrote:

                                I checked my camera and the setting is on adobe RGB, does it got something to do with this ?

                                The in-camera setting is for camera JPEG file output only. Raw files have NO color space assigned.

                                hazy238 wrote:

                                 

                                trshaner, how do you open a file directly in PS. Do you mean though menu file/open and go through the browser and browse through brigade ? Am I right ? So far I have only opened files in PS through LR

                                You can use File> Open in PS or Bridge and in LR with 'Edit in PS' (CTRL+E) by choosing 'Edit Original.'

                                • 13. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                  hazy238 Level 1

                                  Thank you all for helping me out and for all your patience .  I'm so glad to understand fully what's going on. Did spend quite some time to dig around on internet but you have given all answers I needed.

                                   

                                  Only got 1 last question (promised ) left. Now I figured out that my existing files are in same color space (Adobe RGB) where I like to work in so I dont have an issue with color space anymore. But they are in 8 bit depth and I would like to use 16 depth in future. Not sure its really necessary though but Im reading that 16 bit is much beter. It's for my fine art work where I like to make sure that I have enough space to play around with my colors and also I usually blow them up quite big (120 cm). Saying that I didint have complaints using 8 bit so far. Anyway files with different color spaces cant be mixed togehther. Is this the same with color depth too? If yes,  I just need to use 8 bit for files I like to merge with my old stock.

                                  • 14. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    It's best to use 16 bit depth for wide gamut profiles like Adobe RGB and definitely for ProPhoto RGB. When editing wide gamut files that are only 8 bit depth there is a possibility that banding will be introduced in fine gradient areas such as sky. Higher bit depth images (16 and raw files) that have been edited for basic toning and color inside LR & PS and then output or saved as 8 bit depth TIFF files are much less likely to exhibit banding. In fact LR's Library module previews are 8 bit depth Adobe RGB JPEGs. Banding occurs with 8 bit depth files when you apply edits that significantly increase the contrast range and/or color saturation in the image.

                                     

                                    Going forward I suggest using 16 bit depth in PS, Adobe Camera Raw, LR 'Edit In Photoshop' preferences, and the LR Export module for images output with Adobe RGB or Prophoto RGB color profiles.

                                     

                                    TIP

                                    LR can't display the file's bit depth and color profile, but you can create a Smart Collection to find images with a specific bit depth and/or color profile.

                                     

                                    But you can display Bit Depth, Pixel Dimensions, Dimensions in inches, and Color Profile in Adobe Bridge using the below Preferences settings:

                                     

                                    ...and use the Bridge Edit> Find (CTRL +F) tool to find images with a specific bit depth (8 or 16) or color:

                                    Happy Lightrooming!

                                    • 15. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      hazy238 wrote:

                                       

                                      Anyway files with different color spaces cant be mixed togehther. Is this the same with color depth too? If yes,  I just need to use 8 bit for files I like to merge with my old stock.

                                      I just had a chance to test this in LR using Edit in> Open as layers in Photoshop. You can open multiple files with different file formats (JPEG, TIFF, etc.), color profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGBB, ProPhoto RGB), and bit depth (8, 16, raw). The files are automatically converted to the color space and bit depth you have selected in LR's External Editing preferences. There's no need to manually change the bit depth or color profile. Below are the suggested settings when using camera raw files.

                                       

                                      • 16. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                        hazy238 Level 1

                                        trshaner Again, thanks a lot for your investigation. Re your remark about banding. I did have images where I had this banding (so thats how this is called ) problem in the past. I thought it was because I was pulling too much at the curves but its a combination with this low bit issue. Glad that I made the swith to LR ... its a steep learning curve since I'm facing issues where I have never thought about earlier. But guess the new discoveries have added value already ...

                                        • 17. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          hazy238 wrote:

                                          Glad that I made the swith to LR ... its a steep learning curve since I'm facing issues where I have never thought about earlier. But guess the new discoveries have added value already ...

                                          LR's non-destructive workflow and tools are quite different than conventional "pixel editing" in PS and Bridge.

                                           

                                          Tip for Today

                                          File and folder naming for "organizing" your photos isn't really necessary with LR. Instead use LR's Collections, Keyword tools, and Filter bar. Along with that the #1 mistake most LR newbies make is to move and/or rename files and folders outside of LR using Explorer or Finder. Don't do that since LR will lose its connection to those files and all your edits. Lots more Help here:

                                           

                                          Learn Lightroom, get help and support | Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5

                                           

                                          Lightroom Rule #5- Enjoy!

                                          • 18. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                            hazy238 Level 1

                                            It is. It took me a some reading to understand how it works. To me its a bit weird that you dont have to save the edits manually in LR. Since everyhing will be stored you would think it will take a lot of space.

                                            Thanks for the tip 'for today'. Will I get a tip every day ? . Still organizing all my old stuff before Im going to move it over to LR. Since my filing system its just one big mess . Need to read through LR how it can be done better. But collections is definately what could have made my life much easier. I just have so many versions of one image where I have some different edits before I can choose what the final is going to be. And also now sure where I should keep all my raw serparately or together with tthe edits etc....

                                            • 19. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              hazy238 wrote:

                                               

                                              It took me a some reading to understand how it works. To me its a bit weird that you dont have to save the edits manually in LR. Since everyhing will be stored you would think it will take a lot of space.

                                              LR uses a database file called the 'Lightroom Catalog' to store all of your edits including, Develop settings,Ratings, Keywords, Collections, etc. That's why it's important to "backup" the Lightroom Catalog along with all your image files. You should do this after every major editing session so you have a current catalog backup.

                                               

                                              Tip for Today

                                              Most users only need to create and use one (1) Lightroom Catalog.

                                               

                                              It's hard to break the habit of "organizing" your image files using file & folder naming. I recommend the below eBook to learn how to use LR's tools for organizing your image files. It's titled Lightroom 5, but all of the information applies to LR 6, CC 2015 and earlier versions.

                                               

                                              Organizing Your Photos with Lightroom 5 - The DAM Book

                                               

                                              hazy238 wrote:

                                               

                                              I have some different edits before I can choose what the final is going to be. And also now sure where I should keep all my raw serparately or together with tthe edits etc....

                                              The above eBook will help you. I keep my raw files and Exported JPEG copies together. Think of your raw files as the negatives...why would you keep them separated? Check out file Stacking. Don't worry about "culling out" multiple copies until your get the image files imported into LR. That task will get much easier after you've applied Keywords, Ratings, and perhaps created Collections inside LR. Ditto with file & folder naming and moving, which may not be necessary at all! Going forward you will be using a much simpler system.

                                              • 20. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                                hazy238 Level 1

                                                Thanks Trshaner ! Need to look into this. I thought its better to keep the raws separately because I want to make sure that they are on a safe place and not at a place where my workflow is so it wont be deleted by accident. But maybe I need to reconsider.  Got some other problems at the moment. Trying to print some stuff out and want to turn the color management off. Just read that this option is not available anymore and that you need the adobe colour printer utility. Once you run this utility you would be able to choose file/print and Expand the Print dialog box where you and choose no

                                                  color management. But I don't see where I can expand the print dialog box. Hopefully you have some idea ....

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2016-02-17 at 22.44.53.png

                                                • 21. Re: Color space  LR - PS
                                                  trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  hazy238 wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Got some other problems at the moment. Trying to print some stuff out and want to turn the color management off. Just read that this option is not available anymore and that you need the adobe colour printer utility.

                                                  Apparently that's not necessary when using the LR Print module with a Canon printer on a Mac. See this post:

                                                   

                                                  Re: How to turn off color management in the print dialogue