16 Replies Latest reply on Feb 13, 2016 12:56 PM by rob day

    Disable ICC profile shown for images

    subaG86

      Hi,

       

      I have an image, which is embedded with color profile of ISO coated v2 300%.

       

      If we import the image into our InDesign document (embedded with ISO coated color settings), the image information shows the ICC color profile embedded.

       

      1.png

       

      If we import the same image into a new InDesign document, the ICC profile not shown.

       

      2.png

       

      Actually the ICC profile should not show for images if we import in our document. So that, I have changed the color settings as default. However, it shows the image with ICC profile.

       

      Is there any way to disable the ICC profile shown for images in InDesign without changing the color setting in Illustrator/Photoshop? Please suggest.

       

      3.png

        • 1. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

          The profile will show in the link panel, but it will be ignored as it is a CMYK image if you use your Color Management Policy upon PDF export. No numbers are changed.

          Is there any reason, why you place CMYK image, I would strongly recommend to you to place RGB images with a color profile and not convert them before the PDF export with InDesign.

           

          //// And don't use EPS images!!!!! Don't use EPS!

          • 2. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Hi suba,

            this seems to be a convoluted case.

             

            An EPS file placed in InDesign.

            The title of the placed EPS indicates an InDesign file:  … .indd (I can hardly see this in the screenshot).

            The creator is showing Adobe Illustrator.

             

            And the contents of the EPS?
            A simple CMYK pixel image with an embedded ICC profile?

             

            Uwe

            • 3. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              If we import the same image into a new InDesign document, the ICC profile not shown.

              Make sure ICC Profile is checked in the Links Panel Options:

               

              Screen Shot 2016-02-10 at 7.23.25 AM.png

               

              If you want to make an exception to the document's Color Management Policy select the image and choose Object>Color Image Settings. From there you will be able to assign a profile and rendering intent to that specific image.

               

              Keep in mind the CM policy is set when the doc is created and changing it in Color Settings will have no affect on existing docs.

              • 4. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Also, Illustrator and PDF files normally won't show a profile because there can be images and objects with different profiles inside the document. So even though your Links panel is showing the creator as AI, it looks like the image has been resaved from an image application. If it's just an image you should resave it as a .PSD. In that case you'll have full color management control.

                • 5. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                  subaG86 Level 1

                  If we save the raster image as EPS format, does it affect color profile in images? Please suggest.

                   

                  While checking the cases, some of the raster EPS images (creator shown as Adobe Photoshop) shows SWOP coated color instead of ISO coated V2 300%. If we import the same image as TIFF format in InDesign, actual color profile shows (i.e., ISO coated v2 300%).

                  • 6. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                    EPS does not fully support color management.

                    But the problem is, that these images were converted in Photoshop in RGB.

                    If you place CMYK images with the same color profile as the output profile you will not encounter any problem, but the problem comes up if the image has a different color profile as the output profile is.

                    If you set to preserve numbers, as it is shown above in the screen shot (it can be done differently upon PDF export) a wrong profile is applied in the final PDF, colors might change.

                    If you would convert the profile, the color remains the same but you will have a CMYK to CMYK conversion which will cause also pure black to become 4c and grey might be even a bigger problem.

                    So I would suggest to use RGB images with a RGB profile and convert upon PDF export or later.

                    • 7. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      While checking the cases, some of the raster EPS images (creator shown as Adobe Photoshop) shows SWOP coated color instead of ISO coated V2 300%.

                       

                      Sounds like your InDesign document has the default US SWOP profile assigned. Change it to ISO Coated via Edit> Assign Profiles. Also set your Color Settings Working CMYK space to the same when making new docs that require ISO Coated

                      • 8. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        If we save the raster image as EPS format, does it affect color profile in images? Please suggest.

                        If you want to save or embed a profile along with the document make sure you check it in the Save dialog. EPS images can be saved with a profile EPS vector files saved out of Illustrator can't. But in general there's no reason to use the EPS format anymore. Existing files can be left as is, but new files headed for InDesign should be saved as Photoshop Format.

                         

                        Screen Shot 2016-02-12 at 6.55.24 AM.png

                        Screen Shot 2016-02-12 at 6.55.34 AM.png

                         

                        The Color Settings setup you are showing in #1 ignores embedded profiles and the InDesign document's CMYK profile is used instead. The document profile is assigned—there's no color conversion and the image's CMYK values are not changed.

                        • 9. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                          subaG86 Level 1

                          Below are the settings, the customer wants color profile to be updated for images. They required color images should be in CMYK color space.

                          1.png

                          Now we got the clear conclusion based on the conversation.

                           

                          Some of the images were embedded with wrong color profile (i.e., SWOP Coated). Now it has been changed to ISO Coated v2 300%. Also we set the actual color profile in color management setting in InDesign. So that ICC based color issue in print PDF is resolved.

                           

                           

                          5.png --> changed to -->2.png

                           

                          3.png          4.png

                           

                          Thanks for all your support!!!

                          • 10. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                            Even if the image have to be processed in CMYK, you should place them in RGB with the correct color profile and export it at the end as PDF/X-1a. The method you chosed was done in the 90 this way, not today. And avoid EPS in the future. There are many reasons, why not to place RGB images nor EPS.

                            Look here:

                            http://indesignsecrets.com/import-rgb-images-indesign-convert-cmyk-export.php

                            http://indesignsecrets.com/tiff-vs-psd-vs-eps-vs-pdf-vs.php

                            • 11. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Hm.
                              One could debate, if sometimes it's better to use different rendering intents for different purposes doing color conversion with ICC color management.

                              It may depend on the individual image. One-size-fits-all-approaches are not that good, I think. Some images may be better converted using the perceptive method, some using the relative colorimetric method with blackpoint compensation.

                               

                              Then an "early-binding" workflow to CMYK can make sense.

                               

                              Here a link to an older published PDF where this is debated (in German) with some example images:
                              (Use the link at the bottom of the article)

                              http://publisher.ch/forward.php?file=dynpg/upload/imgfile1088.pdf

                               

                              Uwe

                              • 12. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                The rendering intent can be changed in InDesign, working with pre-converted images requires the correct output profile before converting them to CMYK.

                                • 13. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Some images may be better converted using the perceptive method, some using the relative colorimetric method with blackpoint compensation.

                                  Uwe, Willi's right you can assign different rendering intents to different images via Object>Image Color Settings. When you turn on Overprint Preview you can see the affect of the intent when it is assigned to an RGB image. So here's a saturated yellow (Adobe RGB 255|240|71) coming from Photoshop, that noticeably responds to different intents. Both are the same RGB image but with Absolute Colormetric at the top and Perceptual bottom—Overprint/Separation Preview shows the difference in the separation to Document CMYK.

                                   

                                  Screen Shot 2016-02-12 at 3.45.18 PM.png

                                   

                                   

                                  For a single print destination the only advantage to placing RGB is one of convenience and not quality—all things equal the conversions and final output numbers will be the same, and if you know the output profile when you export to PDF there's no reason not to know it when you work with the image in Photoshop.

                                   

                                  And there could be reasons other than intent to make the conversion in PS—I might want to force the yellow in my example to 100% which neither intents are doing. Or you might have a neutral image that wants a different black generation, so the conversion would have to be via a different profile.

                                  • 14. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Thank you both Willi and Rob for clarification.

                                     

                                    I did some tests now with two pre-converted CMYK versions of an image using PhotoShop (ISO-Coated v2 300%) plus one RGB image duplicated and using two different rendering intents. I did this to find out, if blackpoint compensation is automatically applied when using relative colorimetric rendering intent (RI) with InDesign, because there is no control for this specific feature. Also to get a good comparison between perceptive and relative colorimetric RIs.

                                     

                                    Export with PDF/X-1a and PDF/X-4 presets and opened both in Acrobat Pro X 10.1.14.

                                    I immediately ran into a bug: Both RGB images were showing wrong in the PDF/X-4. The two CMYK ones were doing fine.
                                    After opening Output Preview the two RGB images were ok.

                                    Note: My color management preferences in Acrobat Pro are set to ISO-Coated v2 300%. The PDF/X-1a did not show the bug, but this was no surprise.

                                     

                                    Now that I'm writing this, I can remember, that this bug was discussed already here in the forums.
                                    And it should be fixed in Acrobat DC. Have to check as soon as possible. Opening the PDF/X-4 in Acrobat Pro 9 was not showing the bug.

                                     

                                    For what it's worth, here two screenshots from Acrobat Pro X 10.1.14. The row of the two images on top are the CMYK ones, the bottom row are showing the RGB ones, left column is with perceptive, right column with relative colorimitrec (plus blackpoint compensation) RIs.

                                     

                                    PDF-X-4-OhneAusgabevorschau-Acrobat-X-10.1.14.png

                                     

                                    PDF-X-4-MitAusgabevorschau-Acrobat-X-10.1.14.png

                                     

                                    As far as I can see, there is no difference regarding blackpoint compensation in the right column (RI relative colorimetric).
                                    But maybe it's the wrong image for showing this. And there is also the question, if there are cases where you do not want to use blackpoint compensation at all.
                                    Then you have to return to early binding with color conversion, I guess, because InDesign does not offer this feature to turn on/off explicitly. It might be turned on all the time.

                                     

                                    Uwe

                                    • 15. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Now that I'm writing this, I can remember, that this bug was discussed already here in the forums.

                                      And it should be fixed in Acrobat DC. Have to check as soon as possible. Opening the PDF/X-4 in Acrobat Pro 9 was not showing the bug.

                                      The bug in X was a softproofing bug—the conversion to the monitor profile for the simulation preview wasn't right, but it did not affect actual output or conversions. The soft proofing has been fixed in DC.

                                       

                                      I think bringing your test over into Acrobat is adding variables that make it difficult to check the actual effects of intents and BPC. Also with the complex image it would be challenging to compare actual output values in the shadow areas where BPC is going to most obvious.

                                       

                                      In InDesign we can set Black Point Compensation from Color Settings and it does affect the conversion of RGB colors to CMYK when the Intent is Relative. Photoshop works the same way—I don't think BPC has an effect (or is needed) when you use the other three intents.

                                       

                                      So you can simplify the test and stay in InDesign and see the effects of intents and BPL on the separation output numbers (or the expected conversion from RGB to Document CMYK).

                                       

                                      Because Color Intents are really just a strategy for bringing out-gamut color into the destination gamut, a good example would be RGB patches that are on the edge or out-of-gamut, like this AbobeRGB Photoshop file with a grid of  patches that are easy to take separation readings from. Sending this over to Acrobat via the default PDF/X-4 wouldn't really tell us anything because there would be no conversion, so if we want to control the color rendering and BPC, we would have to force the conversion on export :

                                       

                                      Screen Shot 2016-02-13 at 7.46.11 AM.png

                                      Here are the Output values for the dark gray patch, where you would expect the most change from BPC. The document CMYK assignment is US SWOP and Color Settings' BPC is checked:

                                       

                                      rel.png

                                      You can see the output values change with BPC unchecked—there's an extra 19% of total ink:

                                       

                                      Screen Shot 2016-02-13 at 9.53.32 AM.png

                                       

                                      Here's my example file with the PSD embedded:

                                       

                                      http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/ColorIntentTest.zip

                                      • 16. Re: Disable ICC profile shown for images
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        I guess, because InDesign does not offer this feature to turn on/off explicitly. It might be turned on all the time.

                                        Here's an Export example that shows InDesign's BPC working in the exported CMYK numbers:

                                         

                                        http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/BPCTest.zip

                                         

                                        This is the InDesign page where I've paced the same AdobeRGB file on the left, and then separated it to ISO Coated CMYK, Relative in Photoshop with BPC On (top right) and BPC Off (bottom bottom right). The two ISO Coated CMYK files have different separation numbers.

                                         

                                        If I turn on InDesign's BPC in Color Settings and export to PDF/X-4 converting to the document ISO Coated profile, Acrobat's Separation preview numbers match for the top two, but do not match for the bottom two. If I uncheck BPC and export again the bottom two match and the top two don't. Both PDFs are included in the zip archive:

                                         

                                        Screen Shot 2016-02-13 at 3.40.00 PM.png