20 Replies Latest reply on Feb 27, 2016 5:47 PM by tbanger101

    SSD 4k editing Raid Question

    tbanger101

      I have built a pretty great 4k ediitng rig over the last couple months here. now my only bottle neck is what I believe to be my 2 hdd enclosure. It is raid 0 but the throughput is still to slower then I would like for the 4k r3d files I am editing in premiere pro. I was debating on upgrading to 2 1tb samsung 850 pro ssd's in a raid 0 as source media drives. Would I see a significant increase on my throughput with these drives being used for source media?  The rest of the system is an i7 5960x, titan x, 256 gb ssd for cache files, a 256 gb m.2 for boot, and an x99 deluxe 3.1 mobo.

      -Cheers

        • 1. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
          RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

          if you aren't sure what bottlenecks your system may have, you can use windows resource monitor and gpu-z to see what the hardware is doing while using premiere or any program. disk usage can be tricky to determine a bottleneck with resource monitor, the disk activity by read or total b/sec may be helpful. you can also compare that against a drive benchmark tool like crystaldiskmark.

           

          a single sata ssd can be as fast as several hdd's in raid for max transfer speed. when it comes to random read/writes with lots of files, the sata ssd's can gain even more multiples of performance over hdd's. the samsung 850 pro's are some of the best performing sata ssd's and should work well in raid.

           

          the new tech is pcie ssd, which is several times faster than sata ssd in both max speeds and random read/write, but doesn't see such a dramatic increase over random read/writes like the sata ssd over hdd. if you don't need alot of space, the 512gb samsung 950 pro is a good option. the intel 750 800gb or 1.2tb is another option, but more expensive. if larger capacity is needed, several of those drives would be needed or enterprise ssd's which get into $5-10k per ssd. samsung has said they will release a 1tb 950 pro, but the release date is unknown. multiple 512gb or 1tb samsung 950 pro's could be used with m.2 to pcie x4 adapters, as long as you have available slots on your motherboard. i believe the last x16 slot on your motherboard shares resources with the m.2 slot and won't be available.

          • 2. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
            JFPhoton Level 3

            yes, your storage arrangement could be improved GREATLY to help speed up your performance. What you are doing now is less than optimal.

             

            1. You may want to safely overclock your CPU for starters....many are getting  4.5 Ghz to provide a solid performance boost, after all, it is the CPU that is doing the "heavy lifting".

            2. Your description of your boot drive is lacking.......not enough info . You do NOT need a PCI SSD to be a boot drive, that would be a waste because once loaded, the OS and any programs running are " memory resident". If your m.2 drive is just a normal SATA III SSD of decent quality, you should ONLY have the OS,programs and Windows page file on it.  Samsung EVOs are cheaper,but, are NOT as good as the Samsung Pro series,or, Crucial MX 200 series at write speeds and handling of "incompressible data ". A 256 GB or larger Samsung 850Pro,or, Crucial MX 200 would be the best choice for the boot drive, as they have the better controllers in them.

            3. Especially with today's cheap Samsung 950 Pro PCI SSD available. separate drives for cache, etc. are no longer needed. You get maximum performance placing ALL files, ( other than what is on the boot drive ), onto a Samsung 950 Pro PCI SSD which reads at over 2GB/sec AND writes at over 1.5GB/sec. AT THE SAME TIME !!! It is " bi-directional", unlike the SATA drives which can only read OR write....not BOTH at the same time !! The only issue is its 500 GB current capacity. So, do all your work on that 950 Pro, then archive all media and project files to a large enterprise level HDD, or two, for safe keeping. Soon, there may be a 1TB version of the 950 Pro available to ease the problem of storing large files.

            Your media and project files should be on your fastest volume.  Bill Gehrke on this forum has tested and found that the location of the cache and media cache files do not affect performance. For convenience he just puts them on his boot SSD so he can just delete them easily. PPro will easily recreate these files if ever needed again.

             

            Your current external enclosure with 2 HDDs in it may be running very slow compared to what you can achieve with internal drives. If you need the extra capacity beyond what the 500GB PCI SSD can provide, putting 2 or more Samsung 850Pros into a RAID 0 will DEFINITELY provide a much higher speed. For example, I believe 3  1 TB 850 Pro SSDs should give you about 1.5 GB write speed and about 1.3 GB write speed with a 3 TB capacity. Who knows how slow that current external box may be running......it could be VERY SLOW and really dragging down your performance... test it and SEE !!!

            • 3. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
              tbanger101 Level 1

              Well as it sits right now I have samsung 851 m.2 256 gb nvme as my startup drive containing my OS and programs. I have a 2 bay enclosure with 4tb toshiba enterprise hdd in a raid 0 connected with usb3, and i have that 256 950 pro i have just been using to dump cache files and exports for after effects and premiere. I was thinking about waiting for a 1tb 951 or whatever the new m.2 drive is thats coming out but some projects i am working with qill have 1.2 or more TB of source media. So my idea was the 2 1tb 950s in raid 0. Does that make sense?

              • 4. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                unless the 2 bay enclosure has roc raid, you might as well run motherboard raid internally. usb can also impact performance.

                 

                2x 1tb samsung 850 pro = $860

                2x 1tb samsung 950 pro = guessing $1300 (unknown release date)

                2x 800gb intel 750 = $1500

                2x 1.2tb intel 750 = $2150

                1x 2tb intel DC P3500 = $2250

                 

                take your pick...

                • 5. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                  Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  I have never heard of a Samsung 851 m.2 256 gb nvme SSD did you mean Samsung SM951?

                   

                  Here is a new Samsung enterprise SSD that will be of interest sometime this year.

                  "The newest Samsung PM1725 (HHHL) enterprise SSD which has unheard of data transfer speeds of 5.5GB/s read and 1.8GB/s write.  Built on a structure of PCIe 3.0 and using eight lanes sets this card up for a theoretical high maximum 8GB/s bandwidth. With availability expected in the near future, the PM1725 will be available in capacities of 1.6, 3.2 and 6.4 TB, "

                   

                  Of course no help today.but here is a HP solution to solve your problem today.  You can install 4 each Samsung 950 Pro 512 GB type devices (with HP labels) in the unit.

                  • 6. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                    tbanger101 Level 1

                    Yes sorry the 951 I meant. At this point i may just do an internal raid of 2 950 pro 1tb's woth the mobo. Probably the cheapest way to get efficient transfer speeds and the capacity i need

                    • 7. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                      Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      tbanger101 wrote:

                       

                      At this point i may just do an internal raid of 2 950 pro 1tb's woth the mobo. Probably the cheapest way to get efficient transfer speeds and the capacity i need

                      I am guessing that you mean 850 Pro's as there are no 1TB 950's yet

                      • 8. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                        tbanger101 Level 1

                        yes sorry I was rushed when I was working on this and screwed that up. 850 pros is what i meant

                        • 9. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                          tbanger101 Level 1

                          i was also thinking of going with the 1.2 tb model of the intel 750 pcie drive... that seems pretty solid and i dont want to spend more then 1200 CAD

                          • 10. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                            RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                            if you are only looking for around 1.2tb of space, there could be some other options. such as 3x 512gb samsung 850 pro or 3x 512gb samsung 950 pro + pcie adapters. if you are ok with selling off gear, you could go with the sata ssd's for now, perhaps even cheaper ones like samsung evo's, then sell them and get two 1tb samsung 950 pro when its available. the 950 1tb drive might be six months out, i haven't seen a clear date.

                             

                            any of the multiple drive options will need extra configuration if wanting them to show as one drive. sata ssd's should be able to run in raid 0 from the motherboard, but not the m.2 drives. those would have to be done with software raid, like windows drive management. it should be possible for the m.2 drives to run even faster with windows raid, i believe bill has done and tested that, and got good results. however one is probably already crazy fast enough that you won't need two or three, and it shouldn't improve latency. the extra configuration also requires more setup and runs higher risk of something breaking vs using a single intel 750 drive.

                            • 11. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                              JEShort01 Level 4

                              I agree, the Intel 750 1.2TB PCIe drive is an excellent choice for your system.

                               

                              And if you ever outgrow it, you can RAID 0 two of those.

                               

                              Jim

                              • 12. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Yes, I did RAID 0 with 2

                                And then I spanned two for 1 TB

                                There is no reason why 3 each would not do the same expansion, it is just that I do not have three 950 Pro 512 GB units.

                                Edit

                                Also I have a company that is working on simple 4 unit M.2 x16 adapter board but they are telling me it should be available in 4-6 weeks--I am hoping this will really work out for us!

                                • 13. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                  tbanger101 Level 1

                                  Thanks for all the tips guys! Im going to see what I can get for pricing but for right now im leaning towards either 3 850 pros (i like that option because if i outgrow them they will have other useful applications) or the single 750 1.2 intel. The ine worry i do have is the supposed 70Gb average limit on the intel for durability and warranty purposes... are the 850s similar? These drives will only be reading while editing but if i load like 800gb onto it for a project once or twice a month would that have a negative effect? I plan on this drive being my main source media drive and then moving the media off once a project is done and U am ready to start a new one

                                  • 14. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                    RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                                    the intel website says 70gb per day, with a warranty of 5 years. so i guess that would equal 127tb, if i did the math right.

                                    intel lists the same 70gb for all of its different size models, so the 1.2tb drive might actually do more, but not under warranty.

                                    samsung's website more clearly says 150tb for the 512gb model. it also says 10 year warranty. 150tb x3 drives = 450tb...

                                    so if you had 1tb size projects, the intel warranty would cover 127 projects, vs 450 on the samsung.

                                    i have seen several reports on the samsung drives, that they perform well past their warranty. i haven't seen any on the intel.

                                     

                                    the intel offers much lower latency and less chance of configuration/raid problems over the 3 samsung drives....

                                    the samsung drives would be cheaper, could easier be split for re-use in other computers etc, and longer warranty...

                                    • 15. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                      tbanger101 Level 1

                                      Pros and cons then haha, it always comes down to that... would the 850's saturate the sata ports? I know sata has the potential to do something like 600 Mb/s or so... that would be per port and not for the whole array correct? You mention Raid issues... I really hope that wouldnt be a hassle but I am assuming that after it is all up and running I shouldnt run into issues... assuming also sounds like a good way to run into issues hahaha

                                      • 16. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                        RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                                        the 850's should come close to fully saturating the sata ports, but it will depend on the workload. the more random read/write of smaller files, the slower the drive will be and won't actually use the full sata port speed. the motherboard raid will combine the speeds of each drive, on each sata port, to improve the total read/write speeds. motherboard raid isn't as effective as hardware raid cards, but can still offer decent results. you may setup motherboard raid and never see an issue. if something did go wrong, it might drop/corrupt the raid and it would have to be redone/rebuilt and data copied back over again from the backup. if for some reason motherboard raid continued to be problematic, you could turn to windows raid or a real hardware raid card.

                                        • 17. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                          tbanger101 Level 1

                                          Im still torn about the 3 850 pro option and the intel. I stumbled across this realworld review and it seems like the intel 750 may not be the best choice for working with the footage i will be using. The Fastest SSD - Intel SSD 750 vs. Samsung SM951 vs. SanDisk ioMemory SX350 - mediaworkstations.net blogmediaworkstatio… any thoughts on this? This trial talks about it dropping a bunch of frames and stuttering while working with anything over 2k. Myself I cant really see how that would be the case. This is the only negative review i have found about this drive so it may be a one off. Care to chime in Bill Gehrke im sure anything would be better then what I am using right now but i definitely want it to make sure its not going to just be a little better for a bunch of money haha.

                                          • 18. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            Well there are two architecture SSD drives.  If you see a great difference between the maximum sequential read and write rates it has been designed to optimize database small read operations (I/0 operations) and similar operations.  Whereas if the sequential write rate is close to the maximum sequential read rate it is more balanced and generally lends itself to dealing with large sequential video editing files.

                                            • 19. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                              RoninEdits Most Valuable Participant

                                              that test seems very strange, as if they had a bad intel 750 or it was in a pcie slot running at 1x. i wouldn't trust those results, its out of character. i have seen other benchmarks, mostly from anandtech, that show the intel drive is better at writing, while the samsungs are better at reading.

                                               

                                              this one shows the intel 750 and the charts just so happen to have the samsung 850 pro as well. in some of the benchmarks you could imagine a raid of samsung 850 pro's getting somewhat close to the 750 in read/writes, but raid won't make up the latency difference.

                                              Intel SSD 750 PCIe SSD Review: NVMe for the Client

                                              • 20. Re: SSD 4k editing Raid Question
                                                tbanger101 Level 1

                                                So seeing as the 850 pros have much more similar read and write rates relative to the intel the 850 raid may be better for this application. Cool. You guys have really all been a great help so far! Looks like I am going to keep researching a bit and then end up buying something Monday or tuesday likely. Let me know if I missed something or someone has other ideas!