11 Replies Latest reply on Mar 15, 2016 3:51 PM by Per Berntsen

    Virtual Copies and PSD's

    Russellina

      I'm new to Lightroom and am having a hard time understanding the file handling. Pre-Lightroom I would finish my edits in Photoshop.  I would save that psd then also save several jpgs.  I'd save one jpg with the size adjustments, logo and sharpening for FB.  Another with the crop and output sharpening for a specific print size.  If the client wanted the same photo in different print sizes, I would create a jpg for each size.

       

      So now in Lightroom I can't create jpgs, without causing a problem with my library.  I understand I should instead do this with Virtual Copies from my original psd. 

         

           One copy that is re-sized for Facebook and stamped with my logo.  (I want to use my logo - not the basic watermark option of LR so I assume this must be done in Photoshop).

           One copy that is cropped for the the correct print size and output sharpened with my Nik plugin. (I'd like to do this in PS so I can mask out sharpening on skin, sky, etc)

           (Additional print copies as needed... )


      I find that when I try to do this with a virtual copy, it just creates a 2nd and 3rd psd.


      I thought if I created a virtual copy then chose "edit original" it would edit only the copy but it actually edits the original psd and every virtual copy made. 


      Can I accomplish what I'm trying to do or do I need to go back to creating multiple jpgs?


      Thank You so much for any help you can offer.  I'm really getting frustrated.


        • 1. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

          To create jpgs from your virtual copies, or from any files, you have to Export, you set quality, dimensions, sharpening, etc. in the Export dialog. You have to do cropping before you export.

          To edit a PSD in Photoshop, you could export as PSD, which will create a new PSD, which will not interfere with your original PSD. (make sure to give it a unique name)

          All exports are new files, the originals are never changed.

          • 2. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Russellina wrote:

            So now in Lightroom I can't create jpgs, without causing a problem with my library.  I understand I should instead do this with Virtual Copies from my original psd. 

              

            What is the specific problem you are encountering? You can create as many JPEG Export files as you like using different names (IMG_001_8x12.JPEG, IMG_001_Facebook_2048, etc). Use the 'File Naming panel in the Export module to create whatever name you want to use:

             

            Russellina wrote:

            One copy that is re-sized for Facebook and stamped with my logo.  (I want to use my logo - not the basic watermark option of LR so I assume this must be done in Photoshop).


            This can be done in the Export module by selecting 'Edit Watermarks', select Watermark Style 'Graphic,' and then select the logo file:

            https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/how-to/lightroom-export-watermark.html

             

            Russellina wrote:

                 One copy that is cropped for the the correct print size and output sharpened with my Nik plugin. (I'd like to do this in PS so I can mask out sharpening on skin, sky, etc)

            You can also do this in the LR Develop module and then use the appropriate Output Sharpening in the Export module for the target paper type. Use the 'Masking slider' in the Detail panel (hold down the ALT key to see the mask). Additional Local Sharpening adjustments can be applied to specific areas using the Adjustment Brush with ±Sharpening.

             

            Russellina wrote:


            I thought if I created a virtual copy then chose "edit original" it would edit only the copy but it actually edits the original psd and every virtual copy made.

             

            Yes, that is they way it works. 'Edit Original' allows you to make "destructive" changes to the "original file" that are then carried over to all Virtual Copies. You have the option to use 'Save As' in PS to create a "new file" copy, which will NOT change the original file or Virtual copies. I often use 'Edit Original with scan image files to do additional spot removal, content aware fill, etc. I'm not concerned that these specific edits are destructive. Everything else is applied non-destructively inside LR.

             

            Russellina wrote:

             

            Can I accomplish what I'm trying to do or do I need to go back to creating multiple jpgs?

             


            You can create virtual copies for specific crop ratios, Sharpening adjustments, or any other set of adjustments available in the Develop module. I suggest changing the 'Copy 1' name' to identify its usage as below. Use the Export module to create the target JPEG send it off...and then you can delete the JPEG file. That is a typical workflow. You can repeat the process as many times as you like and create as many unique Virtual Copies as you need. Just make sure you give them a descriptive name. You can also add "unique" Keywords to Virtual copies that provide more details as to the adjustments applied. This can then be quickly found in the future using the LR Filter Bar: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/finding-photos-catalog.html

             

            Russellina wrote:


            Thank You so much for any help you can offer.  I'm really getting frustrated.

            If you're a long-time Photoshop user and new to LR I feel your pain....been their and done that!

            • 3. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
              Russellina Level 1

              I do understand the idea that "export" is the option for creating jpgs in LR.  And as long as I'm fine with the options in the export panel it works fine.

               

              The problem is,

              1.  I want to use Nik Output Sharpening to do my sharpening and I want to do it from PS.  Nik will run from LR but I want to do it in Photoshop because in LR I lose the ability to easily mask out any sharpening I don't want applied (such as skin and sky)  Sharpening skin and sky will bring back noise that I probably just removed. 

              2.  I do not want to apply output sharpening until the images has been resized. And,I definitely don't want to resize my original psd.  It is important to me that I keep my original psd in tact in case a client comes back and wants to order the same image in a different size (has happened more then once).    Thus the only solution I can come up with is to create a 2nd and 3rd psd file to handle the different print sizes.

               

              I guess what confuses me is that I thought LR was going to keep me from having a ton of file copies.  But now, instead of several jpg copies, I have several psd copies.

              • 4. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                Russellina Level 1

                trshaner,

                Thanks for all your help.   Your response makes sense... although I'm not convinced it's the outcome I want.  I need to play around with your suggestions a bit.

                 

                It was most helpful to understand that "edit original" means the original raw and everything attached to it. 

                 

                Again, Thank you so much.

                • 5. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                  Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional
                  I want to use Nik Output Sharpening to do my sharpening and I want to do it from PS.

                  If you export a PSD, you can do this, and it will not affect your original PSD, the exported PSD will be a new image.

                   

                   

                  I do not want to apply output sharpening until the images has been resized.

                  I totally understand that, that's how I work myself.

                  But when you resize on export, output sharpening is done to the resized image, and if you're not pleased with the sharpening, you can export it again with a different setting - although your only choices are low, standard and high.

                   

                   

                  I guess what confuses me is that I thought LR was going to keep me from having a ton of file copies.  But now, instead of several jpg copies, I have several psd copies.

                  You will only need an extra PSD for the copy you want to sharpen in Photoshop.

                  And you can create that copy by exporting from Lightroom.

                  For the various jpgs, use virtual copies.

                   

                   

                  "Thus the only solution I can come up with is to create a 2nd and 3rd psd file to handle the different print sizes."

                   

                  Yes, that's what I do, by exporting different sizes from Lightroom that I sharpen in Photoshop.

                  • 6. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Russellina wrote:

                    The problem is,

                    1.  I want to use Nik Output Sharpening to do my sharpening and I want to do it from PS.  Nik will run from LR but I want to do it in Photoshop because in LR I lose the ability to easily mask out any sharpening I don't want applied (such as skin and sky)  Sharpening skin and sky will bring back noise that I probably just removed.

                     

                    The LR Export module is based on NIK Sharpener Pro, but with less features. You can select from two paper types (Glossy & Matte) or Screen, and Low, Standard, High sharpening amount. It should be used strictly for Output Sharpening and is optimized for inkjet printing. If that will work for you then LR's Global (Detail panel) and Local (Adjustment Brush, Radial Filter, Graduated Filter) Sharpening tools can be used for Capture and Selective sharpening adjustments. The Local Adjustment tools allow you to increase Noise Reduction, decrease Capture Sharpening (0 to -50), and even apply softening  (-50 to -100) to very specific areas of the image. You may be able to achieve similar results as with NIK Sharpener.......at least for some of your work. Just a suggestion.

                    • 7. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                      Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                      trshaner wrote:

                      The LR Export module is based on NIK Sharpener Pro

                      I think you mean PhotoKit Sharpener - which was also the basis for LR's capture sharpening in the Develop module.

                      I use the capture sharpening for all my work - from cameras as well as scanned images, but the output sharpening does not work well with scanned images. It tends to produce some unpleasant sharpening halos/artifacts, and I suspect this is because it's optimized for digital captures.

                      So for scans I use Smart Sharpen in PS on a copy of the background layer, and use the Blend if sliders to protect the highlights.


                      Russellina wrote:

                      in LR I lose the ability to easily mask out any sharpening I don't want applied (such as skin and sky)  Sharpening skin and sky will bring back noise that I probably just removed.

                      Are you using the masking slider when applying sharpening in the Develop module?

                      It's probably the most overlooked feature for sharpening, and unfortunately, it is set to 0 by default.

                      Masking will protect flat areas against sharpening - hold down Alt when dragging the slider to see the effect - it will be more accurate at 1:1.

                      I use it for every image - often with high values - like between 75 and 90.

                      With the flat areas protected in capture sharpening, they can take the output sharpening better, without showing too much noise.

                      • 8. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Per Berntsen wrote:

                         

                        trshaner wrote:

                        The LR Export module is based on NIK Sharpener Pro

                        I think you mean PhotoKit Sharpener - which was also the basis for LR's capture sharpening in the Develop module.

                        Yes, thank you I stand corrected. The late Bruce Fraser started PixelGenius and developed PhotoKit Sharpener. Jeff Schewe helped Adobe to port PhotoKit Sharpener into LR:

                         

                        http://www.mediabytes.com/content/interviews/jeff_schewe.pdf

                         

                        Per Berntsen wrote:

                         

                        trshaner wrote:

                        The LR Export module is based on NIK Sharpener Pro

                        I use the capture sharpening for all my work - from cameras as well as scanned images, but the output sharpening does not work well with scanned images. It tends to produce some unpleasant sharpening halos/artifacts, and I suspect this is because it's optimized for digital captures.

                        Per, I use LR to process scan images from my Plustek 7600i film scanner, numerous flatbed scanners, and my current DSLR scannerless film copier. I've never had an issue using LR's Output Sharpening with any transparency, negative, or reflective scan image file. What scanner, media type, and scanner driver are you using? Also are you applying any sharpening in the scanner driver settings?

                        • 9. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                          Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                          Todd, I scan mostly large format black and white film. (and a little color negative)

                          For 4 x 5" I use an Agfa T2500 with Vuescan, and sometimes an Imacon Precision II with Flexcolor.

                          For 6½ x 8 ½" I use an Epson 4990 with Vuescan.

                          Sharpening is always turned off in the scanner driver, and I always scan at max. resolution, except with the Epson, where there's no point going higher than 2400 ppi.

                          After scanning, I downsize copies of the scans to the largest print size, using Bicubic resampling (not bicubic sharper).

                          The size for 4 x 5 is approx. 26 x 33" at 180 ppi, for 6½ x 8 ½ it's approx. 29 x 38" at 180 ppi.

                          I do retouching, rough adjustments and noise reduction in Photoshop, and then import in Lightroom.

                           

                          Large format work should look sharp even on close inspection, but I try to sharpen conservatively.

                          Since my images contain a lot of detail, I have tended to drag the Detail slider up to 80 - 90, but with a low Radius setting.

                          For 4 x 5, typical sharpening could be 30 - 0.5 - 80 - 75.

                          For 6½ x 8 ½ I have found it necessary to set Detail to 50 and Amount to around 20 - these scans are surprisingly sharp, despite the Epson's mediocre optical quality.

                           

                          It was several years ago that I found LR's output sharpening to be unsuitable, and I've been quite happy using Smart sharpen since then.

                          Since I sharpen on a separate layer, it allows me to protect the highlights, and I can adjust the layer's opacity to fine tune the sharpening.

                          And I have to say that LR's capture sharpening is really good, maybe so good that very little output sharpening is required, and even the low setting is too much.

                          Or, put another way, if I had used less capture sharpening, maybe LR's output sharpening would have worked better.

                          But the output sharpening (for printing) works fine for my digital captures (from camera), which receive capture sharpening with the same principles I use to sharpen scans. (they're actually sharpened more - Amount is usually set to 35 - 50)

                          • 10. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                            trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            The majority of my film scans are 35mm color negative or slide film. Obviously this is quite different than the larger format B&W negative film you are scanning, especially the Imacon Precision II scans (5760dpi). Even without Capture Sharpening applied your scan image files will be significantly sharper. The lowest level of Output Sharpening in the Export module is Screen Low, which as you've discovered may be too high. Scanning 4x5 scan @ 5760 dpi = 23,040 x 28,800 = 664 Megapixels! I'm sure the Screen sharpening parameters Adobe uses in the Export module's Output Sharpening panel are not even close to optimum for these high-megapixel scan images.

                             

                            The only suggestion I might offer is to try using a lower Detail setting (50 max.) in the Detail panel for Capture Sharpening and/or try applying no Output Sharpening when resizing on Export for screen viewed images.

                            • 11. Re: Virtual Copies and PSD's
                              Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional
                              especially the Imacon Precision II scans (5760dpi)

                              The Imacon has different resolutions for different formats. 35mm has 5760, 120 has 3200, and 4 x 5 has 1800.

                              But even at 1800, it's pretty sharp ...

                              When I first started scanning 6½ x 8 ½ film, I used the Epson 4990's nominal resolution - 4800 ppi - which produced extremely noisy  2.2 gigabyte files. It turned out that scanning at 2400 produced files with exactly the same quality when downsized, which coincides with the conclusion others have arrived at by testing - the true resolution of Epson scanners is around 2200 ppi. (it's possible that spi is the correct unit in this context - samples per inch?)


                              As for the output sharpening, I'm quite happy to do it in Photoshop.

                              And I'm not particularly fond of Lightroom's Print interface, anyway. Even when I do use LR's output sharpening, I export the file and print from Photoshop.