1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Apr 13, 2016 9:50 AM by rob day

    Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?

    davidb82169291

      I see an attribute in the links panel called Place Date in Indesign CC 2015. Is it possible to read this attribute in a script? I'm using Applescript --How would I reference this property?

        • 1. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          There's no obvious way to do it—the place date isn't a property of a link or link XMP. You can only get the modification and creation date:

           

          tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"

              set l to every link of active document

              set cd to creation date of link xmp of item 1 of l

              set md to modification date of link xmp of item 1 of l

          end tell

           

          You could write a startup script with a listener that would get the date when an item is placed and save it to the link's label property where it could be retrieved later, but that wouldn't help with documents edited somewhere else.

          • 2. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
            davidb82169291 Level 1

            I realize its not in XMP data, but the value does exist. See below. Can this property be accessed through a page item?

            Screen Shot 2016-04-06 at 11.19.29 AM.png

            • 3. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Your screen capture isn't showing for me, but the property you are looking for would be with the link object not the page item. You can check the AppleScript dictionary via Open Dictionary, I'm using CC2014. Here's the link object, there's date as well as link xmp, but that's the linked object's modification date:

               

              Screen Shot 2016-04-06 at 1.02.10 PM.png

              • 4. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                davidb82169291 Level 1

                I have looked at the data you are describing in the dictionary. It's not the data I want. Here is the screen shot. This is from the links panel. It seems obvious that they Place Date Exists, and that it is separate from the File Create or Modify Date. I just need to know how to get it. I tried saving the document as an IDML file and sifted through the XML, but could not find it.

                Screen Shot 2016-04-06 at 11.19.29 AM.png

                • 5. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  If a property is not in the dictionary you can't read it using AppleScript. I don't see it in the JavaScript API either:

                   

                  InDesign ExtendScript API (10.0)

                   

                  You could also ask in the scripting forum

                  • 6. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Hi David,

                    with ExtendScript there is a property for this.

                    Just select an image container and run this ExtendScript:

                     

                    alert(app.selection[0].pageItems[0].getElements()[0].itemLink.date);
                    

                     

                    So in essence the Object Link has the date property with a Date object as value.

                     

                    See here for reference in Jongware's DOM documentation online:

                    Adobe InDesign CS6 (8.0) Object Model JS: Link

                     

                    Uwe

                    • 7. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Sorry. I was wrong…
                      Just tested the wrong sample.
                      Back to square one.

                       

                      Uwe

                      • 8. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Right, that's the asset's modification date.

                        • 9. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Unfortunately and by chance my sample was a placed image where modification date and place date are exactly the same to the minute.
                          Customer files I am currently working on.

                           

                          Uwe

                          • 10. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                            davidb82169291 Level 1

                            My thought was that the data exists in the file somewhere, so even if its not a property, as long as you know what to look for you would be able to find it. However, I'm not seeing anything in the IDML file that sticks out as a possibility. Does anyone know where to file the Adobe Indesign File specification? I've looked through the raw file, but it seems to have some type of stream or base 64 encoding that I need to decipher.

                            • 11. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I suppose you could Save the doc as an IDML and some how get to the XML inside—the usual way is to change the idml extension to .zip and unpackage the zip and get to the contents. The place date does exist there as LinkImportTime, but getting to it via AppleScript sounds like a mission.

                               

                              Here's the XML of a spread with a placed image:

                               

                              Screen Shot 2016-04-06 at 6.21.19 PM.png

                              • 12. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Hi Rob,

                                I suppose this task could be make a bit easier, if one is exporting the image to IDMS.
                                A snippet is just a text file and the LinkImportTime is there es as well. I just verified this.

                                 

                                I pasted the code of the IDMS as text in InDesign and ran this GREP setting Typographer's Quotes to off before.

                                 

                                (?<=LinkImportTime=").+?(?=")
                                

                                 

                                The date was found once.

                                 

                                Parsing the XML of the IDMS could be a better method.

                                 

                                Regards,
                                Uwe

                                • 13. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  In a nutshell the following ExtendScript snippet should work, if the InDesign document is saved at least once.

                                  Select an image container and run the script:

                                   

                                  var doc = app.documents[0];
                                  var sel = app.selection[0];
                                  
                                  var graphicName = sel.graphics[0].itemLink.name;
                                  var IDMSFile = File( File(doc.fullName).path+"/"+graphicName+".idms");
                                  
                                  
                                  sel.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile );
                                  
                                  IDMSFile.open("r");
                                  var string = IDMSFile.read();
                                  IDMSFile.close();
                                  IDMSFile.remove();
                                  
                                  var myDateString = string.match(/LinkImportTime=.+?"/)[0].replace(/^LinkImportTime="/,"").replace(/"$/,"");
                                  
                                  alert("Place Date:"+"\r"+myDateString+"\r"+"of image: "+graphicName);
                                  

                                   

                                   

                                  An IDMS file is created from the selected object holding the image.

                                  The IDMS is opened, its contents read to a variable.

                                  The IDMS is closed and removed.

                                   

                                  A match() will find the right string and two replace actions are done to the first item of that array to strip down the essential information.

                                   

                                  Here a screen shot from a successful run from my German InDesign:

                                   

                                  PlaceDate-Alert.png

                                   

                                  Regards,
                                  Uwe

                                  • 14. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Note:

                                    1. If you test this on a live document, be aware that an IDMS export will export more than expected, if the selected container frame is part of a group or part of an nested object like an MSO, a pasted inside container object etc.pp. So it could happen for some grouped images, that the whole group with several images are exported and you'll get more than one match for the RegExp /LinkImportTime=.+?"/ .

                                     

                                    I think, it would be best to duplicate the container first to make independent and work on the duplicate for export to IDMS.
                                    The place date will not change on duplicates. Remove the duplicate after the date string is extracted.

                                     

                                    2. Also consider to chose a unique name for the IDMS files you are creating, if you don't want to remove the IDMS after reading its contents.

                                     

                                    3. Since IDMS files are not very large, this method should be very fast when run on all placed images of an InDesign document.

                                     

                                    Uwe

                                    • 15. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                      davidb82169291 Level 1

                                      Thanks Uwe-- I'm trying to validate this now. I appreciate your quick response.

                                      This is a bit of an effort to get the date. I don't know why Adobe doesn't just include this as a link property.

                                      • 16. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Hi David,

                                        and perhaps you have to transpose the returned value string to a Date object.
                                        But this is depending on what you like to do with the result.

                                         

                                        Adobe InDesign CS6 (8.0) Object Model JS: Date

                                         

                                        Uwe

                                        • 17. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                          davidb82169291 Level 1

                                          I don't have an issue with parsing the date. It's just that I have to export a file, open it, read it, close it, delete it. My application recurses through directories looking for recently modified INDD files and grabs the link data out of them. I push the image data with the indesign file data into database records, so that I can search where images have been used.  I can fetch all the link data now through properties of the links, but this creating an extra save/read/delete cycle will add a lot of overhead. My application can find hundreds of files in one cycle. To me, linkimporttime should be just another property.

                                          • 18. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            davidb82169291 wrote:

                                            … To me, linkimporttime should be just another property.

                                             

                                            Of course. But it is not.

                                            You could make a feature request:

                                            Wishform - Adobe InDesign

                                             

                                            FWIW there are other properties in IDML/IDMS that are also not scriptable.
                                            One example is the attribute ColorEditable that could be set to false or true for user defined colors in the Swatches Panel.

                                             

                                            ColorEditable-SetTo-False.png

                                             

                                             

                                            Uwe

                                            • 19. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                              davidb82169291 Level 1

                                              I did submit a Wishform for this. Do you know how seriously Adobe takes these requests?

                                              • 20. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Since IDMS files are not very large, this method should be very fast when run on all placed images of an InDesign document....

                                                 

                                                but this creating an extra save/read/delete cycle will add a lot of overhead.

                                                Uwe's JS is clever and doesn't seem to add much overhead—at least it's very fast. So if you need to stay with Applescript it would just be a matter of writing a handler with his code as a do script. Something like this:

                                                 

                                                -------------------------------------------------------------

                                                tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"

                                                    --a list of all the document's links

                                                    set lnx to every link of active document

                                                 

                                                    --display's the place time of the first link in the list

                                                    display dialog my getPlaceDate(item 1 of lnx)

                                                 

                                                end tell

                                                 

                                                --function for getting a link's place time (the link to get)

                                                on getPlaceDate(lnk)

                                                    tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"

                                                    

                                                        set writepath to file path of active document & name of lnk & ".idms" as string

                                                        set itm to parent of parent of lnk

                                                    

                                                        --the parameters to pass into the JS (a path for opening the snippet, the snippet to check)

                                                        set argList to {writepath, itm}

                                                    

                                                        set placeDate to do script "

                                                        var IDMSFile =  File(arguments[0]);

                                                        var theFrame = arguments[1];

                                                    

                                                        theFrame.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile );

                                                    

                                                        IDMSFile.open(\"r\");

                                                            var string = IDMSFile.read();

                                                            IDMSFile.close();

                                                            IDMSFile.remove();

                                                            string.match(/LinkImportTime=.+?\"/)[0].replace(/^LinkImportTime=\"/,\"\").replace(/\"$/, \"\");;" language javascript with arguments argList

                                                    

                                                    end tell

                                                    return placeDate

                                                end getPlaceDate

                                                • 21. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Hi Rob,

                                                  As I noted I would include a duplicate of the container frame in the ExtendScript part of your code to make absolutely sure, that only one image link would travel with the exported IDMS.

                                                   

                                                  So I would exchange this part of the code:

                                                   

                                                  var IDMSFile =  File(arguments[0]);
                                                  
                                                  var theFrame = arguments[1];
                                                  
                                                  theFrame.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile ); 
                                                  
                                                  IDMSFile.open(\"r\");
                                                  
                                                      var string = IDMSFile.read(); 
                                                      IDMSFile.close(); 
                                                      IDMSFile.remove();
                                                  

                                                   

                                                  with that where a duplicate of the container frame is used for exporting the IDMS:

                                                   

                                                  var IDMSFile =  File(arguments[0]);
                                                  
                                                  var theFrame = arguments[1];
                                                  var theDupFrame = theFrame.duplicate();
                                                  
                                                  theDupFrame.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile );
                                                  
                                                  IDMSFile.open(\"r\");
                                                  
                                                      var string = IDMSFile.read(); 
                                                      IDMSFile.close(); 
                                                      IDMSFile.remove();
                                                  
                                                  theDupFrame.remove();
                                                  

                                                   

                                                  I did not test that, but it should work especially for anchored and nested container frames.

                                                   

                                                  Uwe

                                                  • 22. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                    davidb82169291 Level 1

                                                    Rob, Uwe,

                                                    Thanks for this code-- It may come in handy at some point.

                                                    My application is written to run unattended. The documents I have to parse through can contain 50 -100 images each, and there will be no one to select the frame to export. Right now to get the links it only takes the time to open the Indesign file without showing and with user interaction set to no,  so there is no redraw, and no pause on missing fonts or links. This is very fast, but I could be increasing the processing time per document by a factor of the count of images, namely 50-100x because of frame selection and export, read, parse, and delete. I suppose this could be mitigated by selecting all the images at once so there is only one file to parse. The Snippet does include other image id data that could be used to associate the image with Link Import time. But I still worry about processing time. I'm trying to get this done inbetween user work cycles and server backups, so I have a limited window to run this.

                                                     

                                                    Again thanks. I will try this when I get time, (enough time to fail a lot) but I'm not sure this is going to be a viable alternative.

                                                    • 23. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      Thanks Uwe, I think I understand your concern—the linked contents of a frame are treated as list so there might be more than item in the list? But I wonder if that can happen in practice? The parent of the parent of a link would always be the asset's container even if it was anchored or inside of another frame. I don't see a way that ID lets you have multiple images inside of a single container—or a case where two images have the same parent? I would worry about duplicates getting left behind in the event of a crash

                                                      • 24. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        and there will be no one to select the frame to export.

                                                        I think you'll have to test to see if there really is a time problem, but you wouldn't need any user interaction, just a repeat loop for the document's links with the handler inside:

                                                         

                                                        repeat with x in every link of active document

                                                                set theDateString to my getPlaceDate(x)

                                                        end repeat

                                                         

                                                        Uwe's original example was getting the date from a selected object. My adapted handler gets the date from any supplied link, so it can be looped.

                                                         

                                                        I just checked it on a file with 550 links and the runtime on the repeat loop was 20sec on a 2012 iMac

                                                        • 25. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Hi Rob,

                                                          there is one single concern I have to clarify with exporting image conatiners to IDMS:


                                                          If one image container frame is pasted inside a graphic frame and you select the image frame to export to IDMS, the outer container will always be exported to IDMS as well. And all along will perhaps come other images that are pasted and grouped inside that frame.

                                                           

                                                          With MSOs it's the same.

                                                          Select one image container in one status of an MSO and export that to IDMS, the whole MSO is exported.

                                                          I have seen this behavior with selected image containers.
                                                          I still have to test that with scripting.

                                                           

                                                          Plain grouped image container and anchored image containers are no problem so far.
                                                          As long as they are not part of an MSO (or a button) or are part of text frames or other objects that are pasted inside other graphic frames.

                                                          I just tested that in the UI.

                                                           

                                                          Uwe

                                                          • 26. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            Hi Rob,

                                                            and maybe there is a problem, if we are running a loop through all of the links of a document.
                                                            It could be that without pausing a bit after every single export, reading the file will happen too fast to get matches.


                                                            I'm not sure about that, but preliminary tests by using a loop failed on my side.

                                                            Only one instance of the place date was retrieved, but all IDMS files were written successfully.
                                                            Still I don't know why… Could also be my RegExp. I have to inspect the written IDMS files first.
                                                            Work in progress.

                                                             

                                                            Hi David,

                                                            to access the container frames for export one would not need a selection.

                                                            You just have to address the container and run the method exportFile() on this.
                                                            Using a selection was just an example getting easy access.

                                                             

                                                            Uwe

                                                            • 27. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              and maybe there is a problem, if we are running a loop through all of the links of a document.

                                                              It could be that without pausing a bit after every single export, reading the file will happen too fast to get matches.

                                                              I'm not seeing that in my AS. If I save the results to a list and display it as a dialog, everything looks OK. Here's an example with 10 placed images, the last one I placed today:

                                                               

                                                              Screen Shot 2016-04-09 at 11.19.44 AM.png

                                                              • 28. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                I'm not sure about that, but preliminary tests by using a loop failed on my side.

                                                                Did you try my AS?

                                                                 

                                                                This displays the list:

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"

                                                                    --a list of all the document's links

                                                                    set lnx to every link of active document

                                                                    set mylist to ""

                                                                   

                                                                    repeat with x in lnx

                                                                        set theDateString to my getPlaceDate(x)

                                                                        set d to theDateString & return

                                                                        set mylist to mylist & d

                                                                    end repeat

                                                                    display dialog mylist

                                                                end tell

                                                                 

                                                                --function for getting a link's place time (the link to get)

                                                                on getPlaceDate(lnk)

                                                                    tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"

                                                                        set writepath to file path of active document & name of lnk & ".idms" as string

                                                                        set itm to parent of parent of lnk

                                                                       

                                                                        --the parameters to pass into the JS (a path for opening the snippet, the snippet to check)

                                                                        set argList to {writepath, parent of parent of lnk}

                                                                       

                                                                        set placeDate to do script "

                                                                        var IDMSFile =  File(arguments[0]);

                                                                        var theFrame = arguments[1];

                                                                       

                                                                        theFrame.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile ); 

                                                                       

                                                                        IDMSFile.open(\"r\"); 

                                                                            var string = IDMSFile.read(); 

                                                                            IDMSFile.close(); 

                                                                            IDMSFile.remove(); 

                                                                        string.match(/LinkImportTime=.+?\"/)[0].replace(/^LinkImportTime=\"/,\"\").replace(/\"$/, \"\");;" language javascript with arguments argList

                                                                       

                                                                    end tell

                                                                    return placeDate

                                                                end getPlaceDate

                                                                • 29. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  Also tried it on an MSO and it seems ok.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                    Just tested your script and it is retrieving all place dates as expected.

                                                                    Also with all kind of nested image frames. Great.

                                                                     

                                                                    Uwe

                                                                    • 31. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      Ah. Found one case where the scripts will not work and likely crash InDesign:
                                                                      If the image container is part of overset text.

                                                                       

                                                                      Uwe

                                                                      • 32. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        rob day wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        Also tried it on an MSO and it seems ok.

                                                                         

                                                                        I spoke too soon.

                                                                        Just tested with a document with a single three-status MSO with three images placed on different dates.
                                                                        One image per status.

                                                                         

                                                                        The result were three strings with the same contents.
                                                                        So I have to revert my comment on all tested well with nested contents.

                                                                         

                                                                        Tested again with using duplicates now. And that is ok.


                                                                        Uwe

                                                                        • 35. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          Here the AppleScript code by Rob where I added the idea working on duplicated container frames in the ExtendScript part that is executed with a do script method.

                                                                          Note: After running the script, the active document is in a not-saved state.

                                                                           

                                                                          tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"
                                                                              
                                                                              --a list of all the document's links
                                                                              
                                                                              set lnx to every link of active document
                                                                              set mylist to ""
                                                                              
                                                                              repeat with x in lnx
                                                                                  
                                                                                  set theDateString to my getPlaceDate(x)
                                                                                  set d to theDateString & return
                                                                                  set mylist to mylist & d
                                                                                  
                                                                              end repeat
                                                                              display dialog mylist
                                                                              
                                                                          end tell
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          --function for getting a link's place time (the link to get)
                                                                          
                                                                          on getPlaceDate(lnk)
                                                                              
                                                                              tell application "Adobe InDesign CC 2014"
                                                                                  
                                                                                  set writepath to file path of active document & name of lnk & ".idms" as string
                                                                                  set itm to parent of parent of lnk
                                                                                  
                                                                                  --the parameters to pass into the JS (a path for opening the snippet, the snippet to check)
                                                                                  
                                                                                  set argList to {writepath, parent of parent of lnk}
                                                                                  set placeDate to do script "
                                                                          
                                                                                      var IDMSFile =  File(arguments[0]);
                                                                          
                                                                                      var theFrame = arguments[1];
                                                                                      var theDup = theFrame.duplicate();
                                                                          
                                                                                      theDup.exportFile( ExportFormat.INDESIGN_SNIPPET , IDMSFile ); 
                                                                          
                                                                                      IDMSFile.open(\"r\"); 
                                                                                      var string = IDMSFile.read(); 
                                                                                      IDMSFile.close(); 
                                                                                      IDMSFile.remove();
                                                                                      theDup.remove();
                                                                          
                                                                                      string.match(/LinkImportTime=.+?\"/)[0].
                                                                                      replace(/^LinkImportTime=\"/,\"\").
                                                                                      replace(/\"$/, \"\");;" language javascript with arguments argList
                                                                                  
                                                                              end tell
                                                                              
                                                                              return placeDate
                                                                              
                                                                          end getPlaceDate
                                                                          

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          Uwe

                                                                          • 36. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                            davidb82169291 Level 1

                                                                            I have tried Rob's script and it worked. I need to try Ewe's version to see if I can remove the dupes. I have to integrate this into my application and that will take some time. I appreciate you both jumping on this so quickly. Thanks

                                                                            • 37. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              Hi David,

                                                                              I remove the duplicates in line 46 of the script I posted in answer #35 here.

                                                                              And the method using duplicates is all about nested contents where not only the container frame is exported by IDMS, but the structure around it as well.
                                                                              So more than one image is inside the IDMS file.


                                                                              1. A group of images pasted inside a graphic frame

                                                                              2. A button that contains more than one image

                                                                              3. A MSO that contains more than one image

                                                                              … (there might be more cases)

                                                                               

                                                                              And as I already mentioned, the script will stop on images anchored in text that is in overset text frames.

                                                                               

                                                                              Uwe

                                                                              • 38. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                Uwe, would it be possible to check for the number of links  (or </Contents>) instances in the snippet via .js and only dupe when it's grater than 1? David's worried about speed and his document's might never actually use the nested links that cause the problem.

                                                                                • 39. Re: Is it possible to get the "place Date" from a link using a script?
                                                                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                  Hi Rob,

                                                                                  possibly. One could check what's getting back with the match() method and look for the length of the array.

                                                                                  For that, the match() needs to be global and catch all instances. I did not test this extensively. My RegExp has to be redone.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Personally I came to the conclusion that working with duplicates is the safest and easiest method.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Uwe

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