13 Replies Latest reply on Apr 14, 2016 5:15 PM by milkmade

    Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions

    milkmade Level 1

      Building a new editing rig for Premiere around an Intel Xeon E5-2670 v1. 8core/16threads 2.6-3.3ghz 20mb cache. Pretty tech savy and have been waiting to build a Broadwell-E rig for a long, long time. Originally had a $2k budget but it looks the like 8core sku, the i7 6900k, will still be priced at $999 and the 10core i7 6950X will have a new price segment of $1200-$1500. I'm just not paying $1000 for a cpu but I really want an 8core and came across these Xeon e5's for $80. They're Sandy Bridge-EP based, so they're 4 generation old cores when compared to the Broadwell-EP I was waiting for, but also 10x cheaper. I'm getting the motherboard, cpu and fan for under $300.  Thoughts? Should I wait for Broadwell-E?

       

      Found a x79 Asus Sabertooth desktop board in great condition off of Craigslist. Already spoke to several people using this board and CPU combo, so I know it should work fine. Most are reported all 8 cores turboing stable at 3ghz.

       

      My questions are about RAM speed and Disk Setup (Ive read that big thread and seen that chart a dozen times but I still have some questions)

       

      The plan is start with 32gigs of ram 4x8gig and work my way up to 64gig later if I need to, 8x8. Most of the people I have seen using the CPU have been running DDR3-1866. This board can get to DDR3-2133 rock solid and stable pretty easy based on research, although they were the desktop i7s and not Xeons. The price difference between DDR3-1866 and 2133 is about $15 for 32gigs...How much does ram speed effect Premiere Pro? Should I stick with the 1866 or go for 2133?

       

      Disk setup. I will have 3 disks for sure, will expand later. 2 SSDs and 1 HDD

       

      Where should I put my media, media cache, previews, and export folders? on the same SSD? or separate them? some with boot drive and the other on the 500gig SSD?

       

      1) Samsung 840 Evo 240gig: OS, programs, media / media cache / previews ?

       

      2) Samsung 850 Evo 500gig:  media / media cache / previews / exports ?

       

      3) WD Black 7200rpm 3TB : Finished projects, general storage. media / media cache / previews / exports ?

       

      I could add an additional 7200rpm HDD...Don't know if that would help at all?

       

      Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciate. All opinions on my setup are welcome too.

        • 1. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
          JEShort01 Level 4

          CPU and MB sound fine, and definitely a lot of bang for the buck.

           

          Get the slower RAM; I'd strongly advise getting the 64GB now and not "adding to" later; matched sticks work best; DDR3-1600Mhz will work just fine too with your v1 Xeon. You'll notice way more gains with Premiere Pro having more RAM vs. faster RAM. Premiere Pro really doesn't use more than 32GB, but a system with 64GB of RAM and Premiere set to use 32GB of memory works really well (Windows caching, OS, use the rest).

           

          If you have not purchased the EVO's yet, go with PRO series Samsung SSDs.

           

          SSD #1 - OS/programs

           

          Other drive(s) - it depend on your workflow, media type, project sizes, drive sizes, etc. Build your system first and then test things out. Or post a separate thread with LOTs of details. I don't think that an extra HD would help much, but 2x or more SSDs in a RAID 0 array can help.

           

          Regards,

           

          Jim

          • 2. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

            Wait for Broadwell-E. The performance difference which is the reason to build the system will be significant versus SB-E Xeons. Otherwise just get a 6700K system if the budget wont allow it since it will still far outperform the SB-E system.


            Eric

            ADK

            • 3. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
              milkmade Level 1

              Thanks Jim and Eric for taking the time to read through my post and respond. I was worried the length of it would turn people off and just pass on it... I felt like I needed to be thorough with my explination  to setup my questions.

               


              Jim - I may still start with 32gig regardless of speed because thats my budget. I'm working on 16GB right now and can manage for the most for the work I'm currently doing.

               

               

              Eric - You're the first person to tell me to wait. To give you a clearer picture, this may or may not change your opinion, the planned build for BD-E was a $2k budget. I have about $1k in Amazon GCs and would have to come up with the other $1k in cash..Something that is looking less likely by June/July, just being realistic.  Also, I don't think I'll be able to get an 8core BD-E within that budget as well, as its looking to be a $1000 sku. Why 8cores you ask? I've always had a 4core and I'm not a gamer. My workload is Premiere Pro, Photoshop, Lightroom and some occasional AE (use it more if I had a better system, ironically).  I've been waiting to make a new build for years, I passed on Ivy-E and Haswell-E because I wanted an 8core DT chip...6 cores didn't interest me and Xeon prices were way out of the question, so it was never considered. I was SET on waiting for BD-E but then this $75 8core Xeon comes along..And I have to be realistic with myself, I always buy the best/brand new..but I don't think I can afford a $1000 cpu, or even a $600-$700 cpu, if it ends up dropping for cheaper. Not interesting in a 6700k, again because I'm not a gamer and I want more cores/threads to work with. So with this Xeon I could build a whole system for $600-$700ish and still get my 8core..And then I'd have $300-$400 for a nice big video card when pascal/polaris 10 drops this summer.

               

              I haven't already made up my mind, despite that last paragraph. I'm just explaining my logic. Thoughts?

              • 4. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                The 6700K though a Quad core still has HT which is 8 threads. The far higher clock speed helps offset Quad Core versus 8 Core and will give good performance with GPU acceleration at that clock speed. Gamers use the Quad cores at higher clock speed because many games don't need or wont use the added cores. The Clock speed however is critical to the performance just as it is with GPU acceleration. The 6700K with DDR4 clocked at 2400+ will outperform the 8 core you are looking to get with GPU acceleration and especially rendering. So why get the slower 8 core when the 6700K system would be in your budget but a better performing editing station for the apps you intend to use.

                 

                Eric

                ADK

                • 5. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                  milkmade Level 1

                  I understand HT and the 8 threads but from my experience with these apps, they like real cores more than virtual, so thats why I was targeting a multi-core chip. If I was going to spend the money on an i7 6700k, I'd just get a 5820k and OC it. Its 2016 and things are only going to get more threaded. I can't justify buying another Quad..

                   

                  I dont know if I can link images here, but the e5-2670 consistently outperforms the 6700k in multi-threaded workloads

                   

                  http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1155/bench/Synthetic_01.png

                   

                  http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1155/bench/Application_01.png

                   

                  http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1155/bench/Encoding_01.png

                   

                  http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1155/bench/Encoding_02.png

                   

                  http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/1155/bench/Encoding_03.png

                  • 6. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                    chrisw44157881 Level 4

                    once again, synthetic benchmarks that aren't inside premiere pro renders.

                    try this one

                    Premiere Pro CC 2015 6% increase in H.264 encoding performance, marginal increase in MPEG2 encoding performance.

                    https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Haswell-vs-Skylake-S-i7-4790K-vs-i7-6700K-641/# CPUPerformance-PremiereProCC

                    • 7. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                      milkmade Level 1

                      I don't see how those benchmarks help me as it's comparing a newer quad core, 6700k, to a slightly older quad core 4790k.

                       

                      ?

                      • 8. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                        chrisw44157881 Level 4

                        the 6700k threads better for some apps, but Premiere Pro doesn't care about threading, that's my point. that's why a super older chip that can be overclocked at a 3rd the price is still just as fast in rendering out h.264!

                        If that doesn't raise your eyebrows, then I'm at a loss for words.

                        • 9. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                          milkmade Level 1

                          How does showing benchmarks of a 4core vs 4core prove that premiere doesn't care about threading? There is no higher core count chip in that benchmark to show that it is worse or better than 4. You are just showing the lack of improvement from 4 Haswell to Skylake 4 cores in premiere. You aren't comparing it to a higher core/threaded chip, which would support your argument. thing

                           

                          Saying Premiere doesn't like threads contradicts everything I've seen and read...IF you look at the top systems from the benchmarks created by Bill and Ham from these very forums, you will see all the fastest systems are greater than 4 cores, usually 8. And thats where I'm basing this off of

                           

                           

                          Haswell E benchmarks

                           

                          Benchmark Results

                           

                          http://ppbm7.com/index.php/choosing-cpu-mobo-memory

                           

                          https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Premiere-Pro-CC-Multi-Core-Performance-698 /

                          • 10. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                            Yes and that is why general CPU benchmarks do not work with Adobe or other media content applications with GPU acceleration. The entire process is a pipeline and uses far more than the CPU and are far more up to date to make use of the hardware. Do the same testing in a Adobe and you will find those benchmarks are completely wrong and not even close. The 5960X outperforms everyone of those CPU's by a significant margin that is not even close especially when clocked to 3.9GHz + and is the only one of those CPU's that can playback 5K media at 60 to 120 frames at full resolution preview without dropping frames. Once again the CPU clock speed, architecture, and ram ie DDR4, and PCi-E Gen 3 are the reason why. None of those things are better on the SB-E Xeon you intend to build. There are many benchmarks and forum communities that have tested Adobe and Davinci significantly and the results reflect this as well as our internal testing. GPU acceleration changes everything about the performance with hardware versus applications such as AE or C4D where all processing is handled by the CPU and memory management is standard. Cores and Threads reflect performance with those Applications and those applications referenced in those benchmarks. On top of this Codecs thread different based on many variables such as data/frame prediction, algorithm complexity, and partial versus all iframe based or complete frames. The players used in the editors themselves also thread these codecs differently based on the application programming and optimizations. So there are allot of variables here those benchmarks don't even begin to cover and that is before you even get into the timeline complexity ie layers of different media, activity, and FX used. These are why the 6700K performs very well for GPU acceleration even though it's 4 cores/8threads. Realtime priority applications status and requirement makes clock speed critical in media content editing applications just like it does in game applications where frames must be rendered realtime ie in a set segment of time or the user experience degrades.

                             

                            Eric

                            ADK

                            • 11. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                              milkmade Level 1

                              Eric, once again thank you for such a thorough response. I learned a lot from that latter half about threads/codecs/clock speed, thanks, you made other things clearer to me. Although I have to say, I am on the same page with you as far as the 5960X goes. I was planning on building a 5820k rig originally, so I'm very well aware of the x99 platform and its advantages. I've been following the PPBM since its inception and monitored the results with every new update. I've seen the 5960X atop of the lists for a long, long time now. The argument was never against that...Let me clear things up. I would get that chip if I could afford it. But I can't afford a $1000 chip and that will likely apply for the upcoming broadwell-e series as well. I think my questions got lost in translation but maybe I did not ask it correctly. The plan for an 8core broadwell-e build is looking less realistic as far as my budget is concerned. I planned for a $2k budget, but in reality its looking like $1500.

                               

                              Should I wait and get a newer 6core Broadwell-e instead ($350-400 range), or go with an older 8Core Sandy-EP Xeon ($75)? So it boils down to how much performance difference does the newest CPU Core net over the Older CPU Core and does that line up with the price difference (4x more expensive)?

                               

                              If a Xeon can get me 70-80% of the performance of a 5960X ( or 6900K) for 1/12th of the cost, then I think I would take the Xeon. I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.

                               


                              Edit: I just did a quick break down of the parts I need to buy, (already have case and psu). This is for CPU, CPU FAN, GPU, RAM and motherboard. The GPU would be the same price in either build. The 6800K is the cheapest BD-E 6core sku, equivalent to the 5820K which is $390ish.

                               

                              8core e5-2670 build: $785

                               

                              6core i7-6800K build: $1230

                               

                              $445 difference..Interesting...I would love someone to bench the new Xeon v4s out in Premiere so we can see what kind of performance Broadwell cores brings over previous gens..

                               

                              I also wanted to mention going the cheaper route could buy me another year and then I could get a Syklake-E with the updated 109x platform. Going broadwell-e, while great, is a dead end for an upgrade path as its the last x99 cpu.

                              • 12. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                The 6800K would be the better money spent with DDR4/Quad channel and PCi-E 3.0 . Also the 6800K allows you to upgrade the CPU later when budget allows to the 10 core or another CPU proffered at that time with the same board and ram. Overall you may spend a little more now for the 6800K but the performance will be better with Adobe and upgrade options will be far cheaper later which means saving money later with far easier path to upgrade. We will be redoing our benchmarks when we get the Broadwell test chip in. I will see if we can get some test Xeons as well.

                                 

                                Eric

                                ADK

                                • 13. Re: Building New Editing Rig, Specific RAM & Disk Questions
                                  milkmade Level 1

                                  Thanks for the insight...I feel like when I started breaking down the math, I gave myself my own answer...It's clear to me now. There is still a temptation to get this x79+2670 because x79 boards are so hard to find for cheap and these Xeons are really hot right now, could maybe use it for a little bit and resell it for a profit. Just don't know if the demand would be there in a few months from now.

                                   

                                  When you say "our benchmark", who are you referring to? the PPBM benchmarks? are you apart of that?