21 Replies Latest reply on May 2, 2016 4:12 AM by Davince.net

    Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues

    Davince.net Level 1

      I'm trying to fathom what's going on with a preset, can't find the answer hoping someone can spot something I'm missing.

       

      I've been sent a Preset that I have to use processing a job. It's a B&W conversion using Saturation slider to zero, rather than using the Black and White button, to give a specific result.

       

      Only problem is, on images containing a lot of blue (which there are many) it makes the blues almost pure black and darkens the image considerably. using just the 'black and white' button gives a VERY different result, so thought I'd look for why blue's are becoming so very black. If I make a copy of the image, reset it, and slide the saturation down to 0%, it looks almost identical to hitting 'black and white', but hit this preset, and boom all blue's are very dark

       

      Temp and Tint - both set to 'as shot' so nowt there.

      Tone Curve RGB - all linear

      HSL - All standard

      Split Toning - all zero

      Camera, lens calibration - all default.

       

      So wtf is causing the blues to go so dark in the preset?!!

       

      Confused!

        • 1. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
          Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

          What exact version of LR?

          What OS are you using?

          Post some screen shots of the adjustment panels so we can see what they are set to.

           

          Also upload that preset to something like DropBox  so other users can try it to see if they get the same result.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
            Davince.net Level 1

            LR 2015.5.1 on Win 10 64bit, here is a screenshot of panels - will upload to dropbox from the PC shortly!

            settings.jpg

            • 3. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Davince.net wrote:

               

              I've been sent a Preset that I have to use processing a job. It's a B&W conversion using Saturation slider to zero, rather than using the Black and White button, to give a specific result.

              You can open the preset file using Notepad or any text editor to see the settings it's applying. For example here's one I created that applies Exposure = 0.5, Highlights = -50, Shadows = 50:

               

              s = {

                  id = "0E54F9EA-C69F-46DA-B085-390D18180BE3",

                  internalName = "_.50 Exposure, 50-50",

                  title = "_+0.50 Exposure, -50 Highlights,+50 Shadows",

                  type = "Develop",

                  value = {

                      settings = {

                          Exposure2012 = 0.5,

                          Highlights2012 = -50,

                          Shadows2012 = 50,

                      },

                      uuid = "043F2143-EC1E-427B-BAA4-4AB602436ABD",

                  },

                  version = 0,

              }

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                Davince.net Level 1

                thats awesomely helpful, thankyou! heres a link to the preset -

                 

                Dropbox - bnw-blue-issue.lrtemplate

                 

                are what this preset applies:

                 

                s = {

                  id = "BDCE1802-FC0D-48F4-803E-9AA62EA2FB2F",

                  internalName = "bnw-blue-issue",

                  title = "bnw-blue-issue",

                  type = "Develop",

                  value = {

                  settings = {

                  AutoLateralCA = 0,

                  Blacks2012 = -10,

                  BlueHue = 0,

                  BlueSaturation = 0,

                  CameraProfile = "Adobe Standard",

                  ChromaticAberrationB = 0,

                  ChromaticAberrationR = 0,

                  Clarity2012 = 25,

                  ColorNoiseReduction = 25,

                  ColorNoiseReductionDetail = 50,

                  ColorNoiseReductionSmoothness = 50,

                  Contrast2012 = 25,

                  ConvertToGrayscale = false,

                  CropConstrainToWarp = 0,

                  Defringe = 0,

                  DefringeGreenAmount = 0,

                  DefringeGreenHueHi = 60,

                  DefringeGreenHueLo = 40,

                  DefringePurpleAmount = 0,

                  DefringePurpleHueHi = 70,

                  DefringePurpleHueLo = 30,

                  Dehaze = 0,

                  EnableCalibration = true,

                  EnableCircularGradientBasedCorrections = true,

                  EnableColorAdjustments = true,

                  EnableDetail = true,

                  EnableEffects = true,

                  EnableGradientBasedCorrections = true,

                  EnableLensCorrections = true,

                  EnableSplitToning = true,

                  Exposure2012 = 0,

                  GrainAmount = 0,

                  GrainFrequency = 50,

                  GrainSize = 25,

                  GreenHue = 0,

                  GreenSaturation = 0,

                  Highlights2012 = -60,

                  HueAdjustmentAqua = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentBlue = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentGreen = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentMagenta = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentOrange = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentPurple = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentRed = 0,

                  HueAdjustmentYellow = 0,

                  LensManualDistortionAmount = 0,

                  LensProfileEnable = 1,

                  LensProfileSetup = "LensDefaults",

                  LuminanceAdjustmentAqua = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentBlue = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentGreen = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentMagenta = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentOrange = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentPurple = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentRed = 0,

                  LuminanceAdjustmentYellow = 0,

                  LuminanceNoiseReductionContrast = 0,

                  LuminanceNoiseReductionDetail = 50,

                  LuminanceSmoothing = 30,

                  ParametricDarks = -3,

                  ParametricHighlightSplit = 75,

                  ParametricHighlights = 0,

                  ParametricLights = 0,

                  ParametricMidtoneSplit = 50,

                  ParametricShadowSplit = 25,

                  ParametricShadows = -14,

                  PerspectiveAspect = 0,

                  PerspectiveHorizontal = 0,

                  PerspectiveRotate = 0,

                  PerspectiveScale = 100,

                  PerspectiveUpright = 0,

                  PerspectiveVertical = 0,

                  PostCropVignetteAmount = -20,

                  PostCropVignetteFeather = 50,

                  PostCropVignetteHighlightContrast = 0,

                  PostCropVignetteMidpoint = 50,

                  PostCropVignetteRoundness = 0,

                  PostCropVignetteStyle = 1,

                  ProcessVersion = "6.7",

                  RedHue = 0,

                  RedSaturation = 0,

                  Saturation = -100,

                  SaturationAdjustmentAqua = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentBlue = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentGreen = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentMagenta = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentOrange = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentPurple = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentRed = 0,

                  SaturationAdjustmentYellow = 0,

                  ShadowTint = 0,

                  Shadows2012 = 50,

                  SharpenDetail = 25,

                  SharpenEdgeMasking = 0,

                  SharpenRadius = 1,

                  Sharpness = 25,

                  SplitToningBalance = 0,

                  SplitToningHighlightHue = 0,

                  SplitToningHighlightSaturation = 0,

                  SplitToningShadowHue = 0,

                  SplitToningShadowSaturation = 0,

                  ToneCurveName2012 = "Linear",

                  ToneCurvePV2012 = {

                  0,

                  0,

                  255,

                  255,

                  },

                  ToneCurvePV2012Blue = {

                  0,

                  0,

                  255,

                  255,

                  },

                  ToneCurvePV2012Green = {

                  0,

                  0,

                  255,

                  255,

                  },

                  ToneCurvePV2012Red = {

                  0,

                  0,

                  255,

                  255,

                  },

                  Vibrance = 0,

                  VignetteAmount = 0,

                  VignetteMidpoint = 50,

                  WhiteBalance = "As Shot",

                  Whites2012 = 0,

                  orientation = "AB",

                  },

                  uuid = "A6DAD571-829F-4E33-A453-AA8A2F22D1F8",

                  },

                  version = 0,

                }

                • 5. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                  Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  There is a tone curve applied in this preset been that for some reason is not visible in the screenshot. It has darks and shadows decreased. Also you have blacks -10 In the screenshot but I don't see it in the preset. That combined with positive clarity and high contrast could well push the blues to black. Try switching the tone curve display back and forth to the parametric curve and point curve modes and see if somehow Lightroom is still applying the parametric curve while it is showing the point curve.

                  • 6. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                    Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                    I just tried that preset on several different images and do not get black blue color shift.

                     

                    Maybe you monitor profile is corrupted??

                     

                    Here are the images I used before and after applying the preset.

                     

                    Blue to Black PS before.PNG

                     

                    Blue to Black PS after.PNG

                     

                    So it seems it is something on your computer, install of LR, that is causing it.

                     

                    Please post a screen shot of a before and after so we can see what you are seeing.

                    • 7. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                      john beardsworth Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Just Shoot Me wrote:

                       

                      I just tried that preset on several different images and do not get black blue color shift.

                       

                       

                      Same here.

                       

                      By the way, setting the Saturation to -100 is a lousy way to make any image black and white.

                       

                      John

                      • 8. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                        Just Shoot Me Adobe Community Professional

                        Then again if the images you are working with have very dark blues they could go to near black when converting to B&W as shown in parts of the images I posted. That is also with some other very dark colors, areas, even dark Red, going to near or total black after applying that preset.

                         

                        I'd also send some of the images back to where you got them from, after applying the preset to a virtual copy, and ask them if that is what they are looking for.

                         

                        Agree that using saturation = 0 is a poor mans covert to B&W.

                         

                        To each their own.

                        • 9. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                          trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Here's what is being applied that differs from the normal Default Develop Settings (i.e. Reset state):

                           

                          Clarity2012 = 25

                          Contrast2012 = 25

                          LuminanceSmoothing = 30 (Luminance slider)

                          ParametricDarks = -3

                          ParametricShadows = -14

                          PostCropVignetteAmount = -20

                          Saturation = -100

                           

                          Nothing is specific to the Blue channel. Perhaps the Post Corp Vignette Amount is causing sky area (i.e. blue) to look darker.

                           

                          IMHO B&W Treatment provides much more capability. You can adjust the B&W Mix sliders to achieve whatever toning you desire in the Blues or most any other color. Use the selection tool (red circle) in the area to be adjusted (i.e. sky) and drag it up and down to change the Luminosity.

                          Work with B&W adjustments | Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC tutorials

                          • 10. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                            Davince.net Level 1

                            Agree that Saturation isn't the way to do it, which is one of the reasons that I was looking at re-working it, but to rework it I needed to understand it fully, if that makes sense?

                             

                            Just dug around for an image which shows it quite well, not a great image but it does lend itself well to show the issue I have!
                            three images: one original, one with the preset applied, then one with all settings from preset kept, but changing from saturation = 0 having to 'black and white' applied - I made sure everything else was identical between them in every pallet. Which means I'm missing an option somewhere hidden or I'm missing the point somewhere lol.

                            Test Blue-1.jpg

                            Test Blue-2.jpg

                            Test Blue-3.jpg

                            • 11. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                              Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Not so sure what you were expecting but this is basically what I would expect from your preset and shows one of the reasons why the desaturate approach is often not too useful. The image should look better if you ONLY desaturate. However the combination with increased contrasts, negative blacks and positive clarity will cause the 'crushed blacks' with an image like this. when I take your above original as Jpeg into Lightroom mobile and apply the -10 blacks, +50 shadows, -60 highlights, +25 contrast, +25 clarity, -100 saturation, I get basically the same result.

                              • 12. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Davince.net wrote:

                                 

                                Agree that Saturation isn't the way to do it, which is one of the reasons that I was looking at re-working it, but to rework it I needed to understand it fully, if that makes sense?

                                 

                                Who created this preset and why are you using? We've already explained it's a bad way to try and create B&W renderings and you agree, correct?

                                 

                                Davince.net wrote:

                                 

                                Just dug around for an image which shows it quite well, not a great image but it does lend itself well to show the issue I have!
                                three images: one original, one with the preset applied, then one with all settings from preset kept, but changing from saturation = 0 having to 'black and white' applied - I made sure everything else was identical between them in every pallet. Which means I'm missing an option somewhere hidden or I'm missing the point somewhere lol.

                                 

                                Yes, to both questions! That "missing option" is to first use the B&W Treatment button with no other Develop settings applied. Next jump to the HSLColor/B&W panel and adjust the toning in specific color areas to your liking using the Targeted Selection tool as explained in my reply #9 and further at the below link. You can then create your very own, special, really cool, super duper, B&W Presets for "Blue Light" gigs and whatever else you shoot!

                                 

                                Work with B&W adjustments | Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC tutorials

                                • 13. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                  Davince.net Level 1

                                  Jao, The two black and whites have identical settings in every other option except the fact that one is saturation -100 and one is convert to Black and White. I have used many, many presets before that used desaturation before and have never had this happen, that is what I'm trying to work out. I just want to know why.

                                  • 14. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                    Davince.net Level 1

                                    Not sure who created it, client provided it. I'm using it because they wanted consistency with previous work, but I'm finding it is giving dissimilar results. Yes I agree it's not a good way to do it, absolutely, the finesse of the B&W conversion options is something I use extensively. What I am actually editing, as opposed to the example I gave, has a very inconsistent look between frames due to it due to the odd way the blue's are converting, and ONLY the blues. On images without much blue they have a very different look.

                                     

                                    I think you're missing my point - I'm not looking for help to create something, I don't need any help on how to create a preset or do colour conversions or use the B&W panel, I'm looking to understand why this particular preset is doing something I've never experienced before. I'm perfectly capable of creating a preset, I'm just the sort that when they come across a problem try and find out what caused it. If it were purely down to desaturation, in conversions where ALL OTHER SETTINGS ARE EQUAL, why does desaturation make the blues darker, but nothing else? That's what I want to know.

                                    • 15. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                      Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      When you hit black and white, Lightroom applies a default setting of the black and white an automatic mix gets applied (just check the sliders in that section). This is done based on an analysis of the colors in the image and gives an optimal result from the algorithm's perspective where the histogram is balanced throughout. For this image that will significantly raise the luminance of the blues (just check and you'll see what it does). Obviously this doesn't happen in the desaturated option and the blues will end up in the deep shades since they are low luminance from an absolute perspective. Combine that with the contrast enhancement in your preset and you'll end up with your blues getting dark. This is as expected.

                                      • 16. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        ALL OTHER SETTINGS ARE EQUAL, why does desaturation make the blues darker, but nothing else? That's what I want to know.

                                        It doesn't make them darker. The blue in this image has very low luminance. When you desaturate, the tone goes to an equal luminance grey value. this only appears darker to us but in fact has a similar brightness absolutely.

                                        • 17. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                          Davince.net Level 1

                                          Jao vdL wrote:

                                           

                                          When you hit black and white, Lightroom applies a default setting of the black and white an automatic mix gets applied (just check the sliders in that section). This is done based on an analysis of the colors in the image and gives an optimal result from the algorithm's perspective where the histogram is balanced throughout. For this image that will significantly raise the luminance of the blues (just check and you'll see what it does). Obviously this doesn't happen in the desaturated option and the blues will end up in the deep shades since they are low luminance from an absolute perspective. Combine that with the contrast enhancement in your preset and you'll end up with your blues getting dark. This is as expected.

                                          As I said in my earlier reply, all settings were returned to identical, that's my point - Applying a B&W mix yes creates optimal results, but if the B&W have all those mix sliders returned to zero, and in the Desaturated version the luminance sliders are all at zero as well, surely the resulting image should be near identical?

                                          • 18. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            Setting all the sliders in the B+W mix to zero is not the same as desaturate. They use a different color model. Desaturate happens more or less in HSL color space where just S->0. Basically you can think of what happens as that the R,G, and G channels get averaged in the linear space behind Lightroom. The result of this depends strongly on what primaries are used (prophotoRGB in this case). The b+w sliders use a perceptual color model that is quite different. They give a weight to the different colors that it masks out dynamically in your image. Basically the Adobe engineers gave a different luminance weight to each of the colors already in the zero position and so the result of B+W at neutral mixer sliders is different from saturation -100. The same thing happens in Photoshop if you compare desaturating to the black and white adjustment layer but to a different degree because there the operations are done in a gamma-corrected space.

                                            1 person found this helpful
                                            • 19. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                              Davince.net Level 1

                                              That's very helpful Jao, I didn't know that they were weighted differently in LR - probably because i've never had a direct comparison that I could see in real-time like I am with this particular issue, I never considered it. Thanks for that info most useful.

                                              • 20. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Davince.net wrote:

                                                What I am actually editing, as opposed to the example I gave, has a very inconsistent look between frames due to it due to the odd way the blue's are converting, and ONLY the blues. On images without much blue they have a very different look.

                                                 

                                                If it were purely down to desaturation, in conversions where ALL OTHER SETTINGS ARE EQUAL, why does desaturation make the blues darker, but nothing else? That's what I want to know.

                                                This statement jogged my memory concerning a limitation of the Adobe Camera Profiles concerning images with lighting that is in the Ultraviolet spectrum (i.e. Deep Blue/Purple):

                                                 

                                                raw development versus camera JPG

                                                 

                                                Here's Adobe Engineer Eric Chan's statement:

                                                 

                                                Re: raw development versus camera JPG

                                                 

                                                This may in fact be why the image posted and other similar images have darker blues than expected. Try shooting raw+JPEG and see if the JPEGs produce lighter looking blues with your B&W preset. The in-camera processed JPEG should be much better if this is what's causing the darker blues. You could also try using the camera manufacturer's raw processor such as Canon DPP or Nikon Capture and output a TIFF or JPEG for further processing.

                                                2 people found this helpful
                                                • 21. Re: Preset for Colour to Black and White using Saturation slider - issues
                                                  Davince.net Level 1

                                                  Many thanks Trshaner, that's very interesting and actually gives me some clues to another problem I had a while back as well - I'll have a play around! I can't test the Raw+jpeg for this particular job (this is purely an edit job rather than me shooting) but I will certainly be testing it on some shots of my own.