1 2 Previous Next 70 Replies Latest reply on Aug 15, 2017 2:23 PM by Dov Isaacs

    Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express (sic)? - LOCKED

    TonightWeDineInHELL Level 1

      Do you remember way back when Quark acted like they owned the planet (because they kinda did) and ignored the desires of their customers? Do you remember what happened? Adobe created InDesign 1.0... it was buggy, crashed all the time, was full of problems, and everyone switched from Quark to use it.  Why did they switch? Well, Indesign offered many of the  features users had been demanding from Quark for years.  AND these same users were angry... angry at Quark, because to continue as professional designers meant they had to put up with Quark's obnoxious hey-what-other-software-are-you-gonna-use attitude.

       

      Now, fast forward to today. Design professionals are (again) angry. They can't continue to use CS6 with it's unfixed OS incompatibles. They want a perpetual license for InDesign and don't want to pay Adobe until doomsday, just to be able to open their files. Adobe's attitude? "Hey-what-other-software-are-you-gonna-use?"  These angry customers are ripe for the picking. If a young eager software company released even a half-decent layout application (with a perpetual license) that could open .indd files, it could be game-over for InDesign.  So, what do you all think? Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?

        • 1. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Nope. I already pointed out that you cannot compare Quark (one-trick pony) with Adobe (full tool box of which InDesign is very small piece). Users angry about this business plan have been predicting doom since day one. In that time, subscription numbers have soared to more than 6 million and stock is at all-time highs based on predictions for future growth.

           

          Adobe’s subscription licensing plan makes good sense for Adobe and for most of its customers (those that upgraded every version are actually saving money). If it doesn’t make sense to you, start shopping for alternatives. CS6 isn’t get updated and perpetual licenses aren’t coming back.

           

          Again, those aren’t opinions…they are facts.

          • 2. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
            BarbBinder Adobe Community Professional

            I'm with Bob—it's not going anywhere, thank goodness! Truthfully, I resisted the subscription model for the first year and now I wonder where I'd be without it. The subscription model offers so much more than just access to a fully supported and updated copy of InDesign and the other apps: access to Adobe's font library through Typekit (no more missing font headaches!), life-changing shared assets through Libraries, quick access to comps through Adobe Stock. And it does cost less than upgrading the perpetual licenses. As an ACI (Adobe Certified Instructor), I would get student questions on an upgrade starting the day of the new release, so I had no choice about updating.

             

            That said, I had a lively conversation with a Quark enthusiast last month who was pretty darn excited about the new features in Quark 2015.

            • 3. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              Quark 2016 is a very nice application. They have some very compelling features in there. I especially love convert imported objects to live objects feature. You can import an EPS or PDF file and convert it to live objects to edit.

               

              Works very nicely.

               

              This great news for InDesign users since it means that there is indeed competition.

              • 4. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                BarbBinder Adobe Community Professional

                That's exactly what he was so excited about, Bob! It does sound cool, but if you archive the original docs along with the PDF, it isn't so important, at least in my little world.  

                You can import an EPS or PDF file and convert it to live objects to edit.
                • 5. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Why did they switch? Well, Indesign offered many of the  features users had been demanding from Quark for years.

                  That's not why I switched—there were no features worth switching for. In the late 90s, 90% of design users were on Mac OS9 and Quark was making a reasonable bet that Apple was about to go out of business (Apple's stock bottomed out in 2003 at $6.50). It was just the wrong bet. It wasn't clear at all that OSX would survive, but our only choice was to switch to Windows or InDesign. OS9 was not an option.

                  • 6. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    The real key was including it in with Creative Suite. It was effectively free and Adobe made a huge push to get adoption rates higher.

                     

                    Those were fun days. I miss them.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Can't remember when Quark finally offer OSX support—it was after 2005. We take seamless cross platform applications for granted now, but in 2000 the were very few designers on Windows.

                      • 8. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                        MW Design Level 4

                        Quark and QXP is far from dead. As mentioned, the new 2016 version is pretty solid, quick, and add to that Quark is not only listening to its customers, but they are responding to issues as they come up quickly. They are soliciting feedback and making changes as they can.

                         

                        Mike

                        • 9. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                          And for the first time in I don’t know how long there is new lynda course from Mike Rankin.

                          • 10. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                            Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Thanks for the cue, Bob, about Mike Rankin's new Lynda.com title, "QuarkXPress 2016 Essential Training"

                             

                            I've just watched the first few chapters. As a former QuarkXPress user, I recognize the XPress way of working. (Truth in advertising: In the 2000s I co-authored a book on moving from QuarkXPress to InDesign with David Blatner.)

                             

                            However, in watching those first few chapters the most infuriating thing is how many differences there are between the Mac and Windows versions. Mike is very careful to point out these differences (what's different in menus, what features are in one platform and not the other, what keyboard shortcuts are very different—a lot of them!). It would make me very crazy as a teacher to have to remember that many differences when teaching!

                            • 11. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              Yeah. I had only played with the Windows version and didn’t know about the difference until I watched that chapter, too.

                              • 12. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                TonightWeDineInHELL Level 1

                                OK Bob. Here are some questions for you;

                                1. You can't compare Quark to InDesign, just because one is included in a suite??? come on Bob, that's ridiculous. They are 90% the same program. Do you really believe that just because Indesign interacts well with Abode's other products it suddenly isn't a page layout program?

                                 

                                2. "...subscription numbers have soared.." Yeah, I and the other professional designers I know have all purchased CC. Does this mean we are in love with Adobe? Does this mean we NOT angry at being forced into a subscription model in order to continue as professional designers? 

                                 

                                3. You keep saying, "Fact! Sales are great!" Do you think sales were great for Quark, just before they lost their shirts?

                                • 13. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  1.       That’s not what I said, but I apologize for any confusion. You can easily compare QuarkXPress to InDesign but you can’t do so in a vacuum. I’m playing around with QXP 2016 and it is a viable competitor to InDesign on a feature basis. Also works nicely with Adobe applications. But you cannot compare Quark with Adobe. That was my point (see number 3).

                                   

                                  2.       Nobody forced you or anyone else to subscribe. Do I think everything is rosy? No. I have my complaints about some of the directions these applications are taking but it doesn’t change the facts. The business model works and you’ll see it more and more from large software vendors.

                                   

                                  3.       Again, Quark, as a company has one application, QuarkXPress. Adobe has a multitude of applications. Even if every InDesign user switched to QuarkXPress tomorrow, it wouldn’t cause a blip on Adobe’s radar.

                                  • 14. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                    Abambo Level 4

                                    The answer is NO! Thanks for marking the question as answered!

                                    • 15. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                      jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                      Steve Werner wrote:

                                       

                                      Thanks for the cue, Bob, about Mike Rankin's new Lynda.com title, "QuarkXPress 2016 Essential Training"

                                       

                                      ...
                                      It would make me very crazy as a teacher to have to remember that many differences when teaching!

                                      Teaching QuarkXPress may or may not be a big issue, Steve—about a year ago, I was asked to teach a class in Quark. I stopped using it about the time 8 was released, so I asked all of my contacts as well as on the sic list. I couldn't find a single instructor in the U.S. who is still teaching Quark!!!

                                       

                                      For anyone reading this who doesn't know about the sic list, it was so named because the software is misspelled so often. For example, see the title of this thread: "Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express (sic)?"

                                       

                                      I will watch at least part of Rankin's title, but am mostly curious about if there is a real table feature. Thanks for the heads up.

                                      • 16. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                        Steve Werner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        My last QuarkXPress class was probably about 2001 or 2002 but I'm happy to see it's still around and adding features.

                                        • 17. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                          This is the first version I’ve found compelling. They have a full blown export to HTML5 and the ability to convert imported objects to live objects is flat out impressive. I haven’t really played with the table tools but one feature that is there is the ability to flow text from one cell to the next.

                                           

                                          I asked about the differences between Mac and Win and it is a work in progress though the culture at Quark seems to be that Mac apps should be Mac like and Windows apps should be Windows like. I did argue that point because so many people do work cross platform these days and the major apps such as CC and MSFT Office apps are very much alike the two platforms.

                                           

                                          I will say this for them; they are listening and reaching out to customers. They’re very active on Facebook and Twitter and very responsive to questions. They obviously learned from their past mistakes.

                                          • 18. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                            Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                            Shawn Couglhin wrote:

                                             

                                            … Design professionals are (again) angry. They can't continue to use CS6 with it's unfixed OS incompatibles.…

                                            Quite frankly, you've got it backwards here.

                                             

                                            CS6 doesn't have “unfixed OS incompatibilities” but rather, Apple has chosen a route of purposely and knowingly making new OS versions that are incompatible with existing application versions. Existing OS functionality is either “deprecated” (nice word for no longer supported and if other OS feature change break that functionality, too damned bad), purposely changed, or eliminated. And that is what you see as “unfixed OS incompatibilities.” In some cases, it is in fact impossible to produce a MacOS application that will run on more than a few OS versions without having totally separate program compilation and executable modules. That is simply not feasible for Adobe or other developers of large, complex applications that must interact closely with the OS and hardware.

                                             

                                            This is one of the major reasons why Adobe embraced the subscription model – to be able to continually provide software that will work with new OS versions, new hardware (such as the HiDPI – a.k.a. “Retina” – screens, new pointing / touch devices, etc.) without requiring users to specifically and explicitly pay for an application version upgrade to use a new OS version or even a new computer that requires the new OS version (and hardware features).

                                             

                                            You may not like the subscription model for other reasons (and I respect that), but the OS and device compatibility issue was one that the old perpetual license model simply did not and increasingly cannot handle.

                                             

                                                       - Dov

                                            1 person found this helpful
                                            • 19. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                              jobro1 Level 1

                                              InDesign won't fade into obscurity, but I, like few others here, have continued to use Quark XPress. It is now as good as--and in some ways better than--Adobe InDesign. I use both apps, and also rely heavily on Adobe Photoshop and to a lesser extent  Illustrator (although I miss FreeHand, a much more user-friendly and versatile vector application that Adobe killed). I have recommended at work that we not upgrade our CS suite with the Creative Cloud, as I am vehemently opposed to a subscription-based model for software. So I'll continue to use and upgrade Quark XPress and have to make do with Adobe CS 6.

                                              • 20. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                richardk32 Level 1

                                                Will it fade into obscurity? No.

                                                 

                                                Are there problems with the current subscription only model? Yes.

                                                 

                                                Adobe is in its current position because two ground-shaking events happened together. 1) Adobe learned valuable lessons from Pagemaker, and built a new design application from the ground up, listening carefully to what their customers were asking of Quark, but not getting. 2) Quark not only didn't deliver, they were obnoxiously defiant about not delivering over several major, overpriced, upgrades (4, 5, AND 6). They also took their eye off the desktop ball and tried to build web design features into the core product, with an end result that by 6, QXP couldn't do DTP or web particularly well. Additionally, Quark also missed the prime opportunity to merge with Macromedia, which would have given them a suite (FreeHand, xRes, Flash, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, etc.) that would have put them way in front both in desktop and on the web.

                                                 

                                                Both these things had to happen. My shop was producing thousands of publications a year, and had a workflow built around Quark. Switching to InDesign was going to painful at best, and if QXP6 hadn't sucked as bad as QXP 4 and 5, and cost even more to upgrade to, we wouldn't have made the move.

                                                 

                                                That being said, Adobe is now acting like Quark was in 2002. The subscription model works well for large shops, with a continuing workflow. But for the rest of us, it is a constant money suck in an industry with inconsistent income flow, and a constant reminder that you are just one failed log in away from not being able to access a life's worth of work.

                                                 

                                                I would love to have some of the improvements I see in CC. But I am now a freelance designer, and I don't want them enough to commit to an irrevocable $600 a year, stop paying for a month and you're dead meat, subscription leash.

                                                 

                                                At the very least, Adobe, offer a CS7 Collection reset after 3 years, locking in the CC updates into a new perpetual license. You might be surprised at the number of extra user upgrades you pick up.

                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                • 21. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                  A little history lesson is in order.

                                                   

                                                  Adobe bought Aldus, not for Pagemaker but for a new pagelayout application that Aldus was working on. It would be finished after the purchase and went on to be called InDesign. It was Aldus that recognized that PM was a deadend. Even their own engineers couldn’t figure out the spaghetti code that it was written in.

                                                   

                                                  As for a CS7. That ain’t happening…EVER! Like it or not subscription software is here to stay and it’s not going away.

                                                  • 22. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                    richardk32 Level 1

                                                    That's a time line quibble, Bob, since Adobe sold Pagemaker 6 and 6.5 for nearly four years after it's purchase of Aldus, while it continued work on InDesign, but I'll grant you it.

                                                     

                                                    By that time I had long since taken Stony Brook (and by extension many of the other SUNY schools) over to Quark, after (as you noted) the spaghetti that was PM 4, 5, and 6 made it impossible to work in. We bailed at 5.

                                                     

                                                    Ironically, it was QXP 4, 5, and 6 that forced me to take the College Board (probably influencing many of the 2700 colleges and universities we worked with) to InDesign CS2.

                                                     

                                                    And now Adobe is doing the same thing to their customers that Quark and Aldus did before them.

                                                     

                                                    I suddenly have a Romeo Void ear bug. <grin>

                                                    • 23. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                      Derek Cross Level 6

                                                      If a business can't afford a couple of dollars a day for a vital tool, maybe they're in the wrong business. And, for occasional users, there's the monthly subscription model where they just pay for the month(s) they need the tools.

                                                      • 24. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                        I’m not going to argue that the subscription model is right everyone, but if you do the math on upgrading every single version it is cheaper to subscribe. If you skipped versions, congratulations; you are one of the people responsible for this.

                                                         

                                                        You can also subscribe on a month to month basis so if you stop you can always re-up to work on something.

                                                         

                                                        Rather than rehashing all of this, I wrote a blog post about three years ago. Nothing beyond the subscription numbers has changed.

                                                         

                                                        http://boblevine.us/why-creative-cloud-subscription-software-is-here-to-stay/

                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                        • 25. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                          richardk32 Level 1

                                                          I thought I was very clear why this came up.

                                                           

                                                          I've read your articles for years, Bob, and generally agree with your observations, but what harm could come to Adobe by offering both models - a continuing, you're up to the minute subscription system, and a reset the clock every few years, here's the new baseline, outright license option? With the second, Adobe gets to recoup the money they haven't received from me for the past three years without the hassle of ongoing support, and I get the piece of mind of knowing that I won't be screwed if my internet provider goes down on the 31st, or Adobe inexplicably fails to reauthorize a paid up account (tell me no vendor has ever done this to you.)

                                                           

                                                          BTW, I have licensed copies of every CS Collection from 1 through 6 sitting on my shelf for my use, just as I made sure there was a licensed copy for every designer in my employ, plus one for every floating workstation. I'd long since have one for CS7, if it existed. Insinuations to contrary are uncalled for, Bob.

                                                           

                                                          Rich

                                                          • 26. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                            I tend to use the generic “you” quite a bit. No offense was intended.

                                                            • 27. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                              jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                                              TonightWeDineInHELL wrote:

                                                              Now, fast forward to today. Design professionals are (again) angry. They can't continue to use CS6 with it's unfixed OS incompatibles. They want a perpetual license for InDesign and don't want to pay Adobe until doomsday, just to be able to open their files. Adobe's attitude? "Hey-what-other-software-are-you-gonna-use?" These angry customers are ripe for the picking. If a young eager software company released even a half-decent layout application (with a perpetual license) that could open .indd files, it could be game-over for InDesign. So, what do you all think? Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?

                                                              People can only conjecture, of course, and that is what I am about to do here. I have seen Ventura Publisher, QuarkXPress, and PageMaker all fade into obscurity when better software came out. I loved them all at one time. And who is to say that won't happen again to InDesign in the future? Not me. Maybe its day will come.

                                                               

                                                              But anytime soon? No, I don't see it. There is nothing on the horizon that is better. InDesign rocks and keeps getting better. I don't see a "lot" of angry customers like you say that you do—not to the extent that I did with QuarkXPress. I do see a few who are very vocal. But almost all of the people I talk to have a passion for InDesign because it is awesome.

                                                               

                                                              Also, remember that in the beginning InDesign could open Quark files, then Quark put a stop to it. So I don't know if opening InDesign files with other software is something to expect or not. It's anyone's guess (except, of course, fro the engineers at Adobe).

                                                               

                                                              I can't use any of the versions that I still have of Ventura Publisher or QuarkXPress or PageMaker because they are not compatible with my current Operating System and hardware. For me, I found it best to move forward.

                                                               

                                                              My 2¢.

                                                               

                                                              I don't expect you to agree with me, but you did ask us what we think and this is my own personal opinion!

                                                               

                                                              Best wishes to you

                                                              • 28. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                I also hate the subscription model (and I don't do my personal work in subscription versions so I don't get caught in that bind), but I don't expect Adobe to pour money into upgrading old versions for new OS problems. If at some point there is something in a subscription version that is compelling for my workflow, or if I am forced into an OS upgrade that won't run my perpetual versions, I'll bite that bullet, but I'm old, mostly retired, print-centric and a Windows user, so I have very little worry that day is on the horizon.

                                                                • 29. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  I get the piece of mind of knowing that I won't be screwed if my internet provider goes down on the 31st

                                                                  You don't need an internet connection to run the cloud apps—you only need a connection once, anytime during the month:

                                                                   

                                                                  Adobe Creative Cloud | Software and services for creative professionals

                                                                   

                                                                  CS5 won't reliably run on my current OS. It's old but not that old, so I'm not sure where the piece of mind is with a perpetual license.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                    rob day wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    I get the piece of mind of knowing that I won't be screwed if my internet provider goes down on the 31st

                                                                    You don't need an internet connection to run the cloud apps—you only need a connection once, anytime during the month:

                                                                    And there is supposed to be a grace period to accommodate temporarily lost connectivity.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                      [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                                                      Bob Levine wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      > I’m not going to argue that the subscription model is right everyone, but if you do the math on upgrading every single version it is cheaper to subscribe. If you skipped versions, congratulations; you are one of the people responsible for this...

                                                                       

                                                                      But Bob, consider this: a good reason to buy a new version is because it has more useful features. Of course, as you mention elsethread, there are some new features that some people find indispensable. But I do not!

                                                                       

                                                                      So, with the ol' "you buy it or you don't" model, I could happily skip any new version that does not contain useful new stuff for me. I kept on using that old version and thus saved money. With the subscription model, on the other hand, I am paying for that new version (and, of course, receiving it) whether or not it contains anything of use for me!

                                                                      • 32. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                        Abambo Level 4

                                                                        When I started my carear some 30 years ago, I worked on rented software for chip design. IAfter that I installed and managed rented finite elements programs. We switched to perpetual licenses with maintenance contract, when I found that on a four year period, that model was more cost effective. We returned to the subscription model years later, when again the situation changed. The subscription model is no invention of Adobe. Nor is the "cloud computing" model an invention of our time.

                                                                         

                                                                        The subscription model is quite interesting. My budgetizing resulted in a similar cost factor then the previous perpetual model.

                                                                         

                                                                        Personally, I have now a yearly budget. I do not have to justify a "heavy" invest each 2 to three years. I do not have to justify the additional acquisition of one or the other software. I work with the current versions and have no more compatibility issues for exchanges.

                                                                         

                                                                        I can even sniff in programs that I would not have considered before. Only drawback is that when you stop the subscription, you stop the access to your data. I still have old Corel licenses I can use, if I need to open old files. This did happen at the beginning, when I decided to scrap Corel, but now we are at the point that I decided not to install that old software on our brand new machines.

                                                                         

                                                                        Adobe is doing money with the subscription model. The customers accepted it. Why would they return to the old perpetual license?

                                                                        • 33. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                          I’m afraid you’re missing my point.

                                                                           

                                                                          It costs Adobe millions of dollars to develop software. If people don’t buy it, it still cost them that money.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                            Abambo Level 4

                                                                            BobLevine wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            It costs Adobe millions of dollars to develop software. If people don’t buy it, it still cost them that money.

                                                                            Yes! But if Adobe adds features that are of no use for me, it costs my cash for something I do not want!

                                                                             

                                                                            Ever bought a car with features you didn't need? Did cost your money! The car builder on the other side needs to pay for the development of options you do not buy!

                                                                             

                                                                            The point with Adobe however is, that you do not have a choice with their cash cow software. It's however legitime for Adobe doing so. Customers can always decide using MS Word, publisher or similar as an InDesign replacement.

                                                                             

                                                                            You could even use free Latex for typesetting! It's great to have a choice...

                                                                            1 person found this helpful
                                                                            • 35. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                              [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                                                                              If they spend millions of dollars investing in features I just don't need, I could always opt to not buy it.

                                                                               

                                                                              You are ignoring the reverse: if they add features I can use in my work, then I will pay for it. With the subscription model, I would be paying up front and have to await what I get for my cash. ("Up front" - yes. Previously, Adobe spent that money, and then they'd have to convince people to buy their product. They would do so by making it desirable. This is called a "consumer's market". I don't know what market the subscription model is called.)

                                                                              • 36. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                You just made the point for this model. They can cater to niche markets for an update without worrying about sales numbers because only a small number of people would be interested. Maybe you get a feature you like this time and some other small group gets something they like in the next one.

                                                                                 

                                                                                But it’s even better here because it could be something you really want but not enough to pay extra for.

                                                                                 

                                                                                This is an evolutionary time for software. The revolution is over.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                                  BobLevine wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Maybe you get a feature you like this time and some other small group gets something they like in the next one.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  But it’s even better here because it could be something you really want but not enough to pay extra for.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Except that's not the way it's been working, is it? Where are the long document improvements that users have asked for for years? There's been nothing new for my workflow since CS5 that would make me pay for an upgrade.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  New and improved features are all in the areas requested by large user groups or flashy new technology.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                                    jane-e Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                    BobLevine wrote:

                                                                                    Maybe you get a feature you like this time and some other small group gets something they like in the next one.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Very occasionally after I teach a class I will get a comment from a student that I taught them something he or she did not need to know. And I spent too way too much time on it—a whole hour sometimes. Nevermind that the all the other students in class had previously said they needed that very topic! (The unuseful topic varies, so I am keeping it generic.)

                                                                                     

                                                                                    As a trainer, I see that people do use the software in many different ways, and for myself sometimes I have found that there are things I think I don't need until suddenly—I do. And then I am glad they are there.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Will InDesign fade into obscurity like Quark Express?
                                                                                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                      No. But I’m talking in generalities and from a business standpoint.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I’m sold on the model and think it’s the best way forward, but at this point I’d love a reset where we get a version that has nothing in it but bug fixes and performance enhancements.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      This would be a great use of the subscription model because everyone would get it without having to pay extra for it. The days of needing whiz bang features that demo well (I give you liquid layouts and the content collection tools) but have very little in the way of usefulness in real life are over.

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