25 Replies Latest reply on Jun 12, 2016 5:09 AM by Peter Spier

    IDML / legacy files / future support

    sargentrock2 Level 1

      Hi, I probably haven't posted in an Adobe forum for 10 years or more. I started with Adobe when I learned Illustrator 88 (in 1989) after being a typesetter since the mid-70s, and I'm still in the game, working freelance for book publishers. I do a lot of updating of old books, both given to me in Quark 3/4 or pre-cloud InDesign. Sooner or later my clients and I will be forced into the cloud, mainly because our early pre-Nehalem MacPros are dying.

       

      Here's my question, which nothing I've searched for on Adobe support web pages has clearly answered, but maybe some of you may know. Keeping in mind that the files I work with, old and new, are extremely simple, rarely if ever use any of the latest fancy design modules, and are mostly just type and images, how much longer will Adobe grant us the favor of supporting backward and forward migration and the use of IDML files?

       

      A side question to this would be, how much longer will any given Cloud version of InDesign be able to directly open pre-Cloud CS files? In book production, old files can sit for years before the publisher decides to update and/or re-print a book, so the issue of forward-migration from very-old versions is a big one. I'm really good at it... because I've been doing this for a very, very long time... and that ability continues to get me steady freelance work. Backward-migration is less of an issue to me, I'm not afraid of, and certainly not unfamiliar with, upgrading hardware and software. Hey, I managed to get Panther running on a beige G3 and used it for a long time afterward! I'm just sort frugal about this stuff; I don't have a corporate IT department taking care of it all for me...

        • 1. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          There is no reason to believe that IDML (for InDesign) will every be cut off, but going backward will always be limited to CS4. As for future versions opening older ones? I can still open InDesign 1.0 and 1.5 files with CC2015.

           

          That said, if you have a whole slew of older files, it wouldn't be a half bad idea to keep an older machine with legacy software on it especially for book files containing lots of chapters as separate ID files.

          • 2. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
            Test Screen Name Most Valuable Participant

            Just one point, you write "Sooner or later my clients and I will be forced into the cloud,"

             

            If you mean you will be forced onto the product called Creative Cloud, I won't argue with you.

             

            But if you mean more than that ... there is the widely held belief that Creative Cloud is Cloud Software (some people call this SaaS). It isn't. It is regular software installed on your computer, just like the older versions. It has the option to easily save to/open from an Adobe cloud, and share stuff... but the software is local. Yes, given that many people hate the idea of cloud software the name (in retrospect) might not have been the best marketing decision, but there we are.

            • 3. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Only Adobe executives can answer questions about future features and support, if they even know at this time, and they are not going to do so except during official product release announcements due to legal constraints on publicly traded companies.

              • 4. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                All in all it's a good idea to maintain older machines with older versions of InDesign where all things fit together. Documents, fonts, paragraph composers. Or you could use virtual machines with older operating system versions and older InDesign versions on newer hardware, if that's possible.

                 

                Uwe

                • 5. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                  sargentrock2 Level 1

                  I should have been more clear. Yes, I was referring to the looming probability of becoming a dependent-user of Adobe's Creative Suite cloud(s), not general cloud-based computing or storage. However, there is one thing that seemed extremely problematical - your marketing people were at one time touting the huge collection of fonts a subscription would include, but... as I understood it, if my ISP connection went down, I'd lose my ability to work, as the fonts stayed in the cloud and all I could do was link to them. This certainly didn't represent any added value for me at the time.

                   

                  But, while I have your attention, I just looked at your system requirements page and saw that the requirements for the earlier versions of CS cloud were still up, and there was even some hint that the installer would recognize my system and provide me with the correct older one. Or maybe I misunderstood something?

                   

                  About a year ago I talked to an Adobe sales rep who, very dismissively and rudely, informed me that I could no longer access any of those earlier versions and I'd have to upgrade my hardware to join the Cloud Community. That sales person's nasty attitude did not exactly improve my opinion of the rent-an-app plan.

                   

                  So, which is it, can I rent the suite and have it recognize my OS 7 Lion and let me download the version that works with it?

                  • 6. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                    sargentrock2 Level 1

                    Yes, I have a small fleet of G4s stashed away with OS9. They all have Quark 3 through 5 on them. At least one has a 2nd boot drive with Tiger and Quark 6. I have a couple SCSI scanners, a Nikon Coolscan and a massive Umax Mirage II, that I still use occasionally. They work fine, and it's kinda fun to watch that OS 9 startup screen coming up...

                     

                    When I do get a more modern MacPro, I'll most certainly keep this solid as a rock 1,1 around, with CS6 and Quark 8, 9, & 10 on it, for as long as it continues to boot. Working with legacy files is my specialty these days, though I'm still following current events in the trade. I've been doing this stuff for 40 years. We didn't even have a mouse, nor a WYSIWYG screen at first. We typeset in code and used the arrow keys to move around the screen...

                    • 7. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                      We don’t work for Adobe. We’re volunteers and you have fallen for one of the biggest myths going.

                       

                      You don’t need an internet connection to work.

                      • 8. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Yes, I have a small fleet of G4s stashed away with OS9. They all have Quark 3 through 5 on them. At least one has a 2nd boot drive with Tiger and Quark 6. I have a couple SCSI scanners, a Nikon Coolscan and a massive Umax Mirage II, that I still use occasionally. They work fine, and it's kinda fun to watch that OS 9 startup screen coming up...

                         

                        Dang, that was a great scanner.

                         

                        Like you, I work with many legacy files. I was just in my old WinXP image, working on updating some very old translation memories. I was about to echo Uwe with my generic advice for those of us who work with legacy files - to pursue virtualization of old operating systems. Someday, that hardware will fail. I used to rely on a Mirror Door G4, but now I just run everything in VMs. However, if I had a large-format SCSI scanner, I would be loath to give it up. It sounds like No Fun At All, trying to get a SCSI scanner working in an OS that requires a PowerPC processor, running in virtualization on contemporary hardware.

                         

                        I do have to agree with Bob, here - you can continue working if your network connection goes down, even if your layout relies on TypeKit fonts. You do need a valid internet connection, though; my understanding is that you need it for about thirty seconds a month to verify your membership, and once you've synced your TypeKit fonts, they are stored on your local machine. You can probably rely on even the flakiest ISP for that.

                        • 9. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                          cbishop01 Level 2

                          I think you just have to login to the creative cloud once ever 30 days or something around that.  Just to verify that you still have an active account.  I was skeptical at first but quite frankly Cloud is better if you lose you software you can just download it again.  It keeps track of your previous version that was installed in case you have to revert.  The CC is actually Really good.  Not to mention Cheap Price for the whole adobe collection is a major Plus.. 

                          • 10. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                            You do not have to log in at all. The verification takes place in the background. And if you have an annual pre-paid account I believe that verification is every three months or so.

                            • 11. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                              sargentrock2 Level 1

                              Thanks to all of you for the useful info!

                               

                              I'm still looking for someone from Adobe to verify whether or not a cloud subscription will let me install earlier versions. My unhelpful experience with the smarmy Adobe salesbot, who demonstrated zero customer service skills, last year, wasn't exactly informative, but it certainly was infuriating.

                               

                              Adobe management doesn't apparently consider talking to someone on my level of use of their products to be worth their time of day. Since I don't have a subscription, I'm apparently blocked from being able to ask questions of an intelligent, informed Adobe rep, leaving the forums as my only access to information.

                              • 12. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                A cloud subscription includes CS6 and later…NOTHING EARLIER.

                                • 13. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                  sargentrock2 Level 1

                                  That... answers my biggest question.

                                   

                                  Is this a new thing, or was the sales rep who picked up the phone when I called the Adobe sales number about a year ago so incompetent he should never have been hired? He flat out told me the only version available via subscription was the current one, which wouldn't run on my system and I was flat out of luck unless I bought new hardware.

                                   

                                  Thanks, Bob.

                                  • 14. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    Well, that's complicated...

                                     

                                    You normally use the Creative Cloud Application to install the other apps, and the one available for download is always the current version, which might well not install on an older OS. There are some direct download links for earlier versions at ProDesign Tools (http://prodesigntools.com/adobe-cc-direct-download-links.html for example, and be sure to read and follow the directions on the page), but I'm not sure you would be able to get program updates without the CC App even with the paid subscription.

                                    • 15. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      I have no idea what the conversation was about and as I said, I don't work for Adobe.

                                      • 16. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Yes, it's complicated.

                                         

                                        Just an example with Mac OSX:
                                        On Mac OSX 10.6.8 the Adobe Application Manager is managing the CC log-in processes.
                                        The Adobe Creative Cloud app is not running on OSX 10.6.8.

                                         

                                        You are able to install CS6 and CC apps through Adobe Application Manager on OSX 10.6.8.
                                        But not the CC 2014 or CC 2015 apps.

                                         

                                        Currently on my OSX 10.6.8 machine there are several versions of InDesign installed:
                                        CS3, CS4, CS5, CS5.5, CS6 and CC (version 9.3.0)

                                         

                                        You'll need OSX 10.7.5 as a minimum to install: CC 2014

                                        You'll need OSX 10.9 as a minimum to install: CC 2015

                                         

                                        Uwe

                                        • 17. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          And I recommend NOT to update Adobe Air to versions later than 16.0 when on OSX 10.6.8.
                                          By no means install Adobe Air version 21.0. That would perhaps break things in case you like to run Adobe Muse CC.
                                          It would also break running Adobe Content Viewer app with InDesign CS5, CS5.5 and CS6.

                                           

                                          Uwe

                                          • 18. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                            sargentrock2 Level 1

                                            Thanks all for the CC cloud info. My MacPro is at 10.7.5 and now I've finally learned that even CC 2014 should work, and that there actually are ways to get it using the subscription deal thing. I don't use Air at all (far as I know) though every time I uninstall it to keep it from begging for permission to download updates all the time, the wretched thing creeps back in.

                                             

                                            Now that a beam of light has revealed this to me, I will figure out how to install what I need to advance beyond Indesign CS6 so I don't need to nag a client on CS cloud for the IDML file.

                                             

                                            All I really want to do is pay the single-app subscription for Indesign.

                                             

                                            Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, and Bridge are the only other current Adobe products I use (boy, did I make a ton of dough with Adobe Streamline, now included inside Illustrator, digitizing logos and stuff in the early 1990s!), and my CS6 versions of all of them are working just fine (so far.) No one has yet sent me a Photoshop or Illustrator file that didn't open properly, despite the scary "created in a newer version and stuff might not work" warnings.

                                             

                                            Thanks again!

                                            • 19. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                              No…CC2015 requires 10.9 at a minimum.

                                              • 20. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                sargentrock2 Level 1

                                                boy, you're fast, you read it and responded before I could edit and delete the incorrect CC2015 notation

                                                • 21. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                  I reply via email almost exclusively and have rules set up to sort messages from the forum.

                                                  • 22. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                    Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                    James Schalles wrote:

                                                     

                                                    …A side question to this would be, how much longer will any given Cloud version of InDesign be able to directly open pre-Cloud CS files? In book production, old files can sit for years before the publisher decides to update and/or re-print a book, so the issue of forward-migration from very-old versions is a big one. I'm really good at it... because I've been doing this for a very, very long time... and that ability continues to get me steady freelance work. Backward-migration is less of an issue to me, I'm not afraid of, and certainly not unfamiliar with, upgrading hardware and software. Hey, I managed to get Panther running on a beige G3 and used it for a long time afterward! I'm just sort frugal about this stuff; I don't have a corporate IT department taking care of it all for me...

                                                     

                                                    On behalf of Adobe …

                                                     

                                                    To answer your side question, current versions of InDesign are capable of opening documents produced by previous versions of InDesign. I actually have some InDesign 1.0 documents that will open up without any issue in the latest InDesign version, InDesign 11.3 (i.e., CC 2015). The only issue that you may find is that the algorithms for line layout have changed a few times over the years and that you may find some changes in line endings and thus pagination.

                                                     

                                                    And to confirm what others have told you, despite the “Creative Cloud” moniker, the InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, etc. programs still run on your computer system and are not so-called “cloud applications.”

                                                     

                                                                   - Dov

                                                    • 23. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                      Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      sargentrock2 wrote:

                                                      … despite the scary "created in a newer version and stuff might not work" warnings.

                                                       

                                                      You should take warnings like that seriously.

                                                      And you should open current versions of PSD files (CC 2014, CC 2015) carefully, if you are solely working with PhotoShop CS6.
                                                      Editing in older version could break things.

                                                       

                                                      So I would not do a single-app subscription with InDesign but subscribe to the whole Adobe Creative Cloud.

                                                       

                                                      And if your hardware allows, you could set up a second startup disk volume with OSX 10.9 or 10.10 ( maybe even 10.11; I hesitate to recommend this ) and install CC 2015 on this volume.

                                                       

                                                      Uwe

                                                      • 24. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                        BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                        Or, stop trying to run a business on a shoe string budget. New equipment and software is not a cost, it’s an investment in your business.

                                                        • 25. Re: IDML / legacy files / future support
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          Dov mentioned text reflow when opening legacy files in newer versions. This is an insidious problem as it generally doesn't occur until you touch a story in some way, and then just that story recomposes. If there is threaded text you might not even notice a change because it is happening on another page.

                                                           

                                                          Exporting to .inx/.idml from the original version and opening that in your new version for editing forces all stories to recompose, and can prevent some fatal errors caused by file corruption that may not show up immediately as well. There is also a keyboard shortcut, not in any menu, that forces a recompose of all stories, Ctrl + Alt + / on Windows or Cmd + Opt + / on Mac.