16 Replies Latest reply on Jun 23, 2016 11:14 PM by Laubender

    Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom

    The111

      See below. I drew an ellipse and tried to type some text inside it. In the lower half, it aligns very well (fills out the entire perimeter). But in the upper half, there is quite a bit of padding, for example the second row of Z's could fit quite a bit more. Even the first row (which has only 3 Z's) is half the width of the last row (with 6 Z's). Is there any way that I can configure this to behave better?

        • 1. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
          Salah Fadlabi Level 5

          Here is a workaround:

          1- Rectangle text and a circle frame, align text to center and adjusted to fit into the circle.

          2- Copy text frame and paste into circle.

          circle.jpg

          • 2. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Hello,

            the problem here is, that InDesign is using the leading and the character's invisible bounding box of the glyph to determine what fits in and what is not. InDesign is not using the shape of the glyph to do the calculation.

             

            What can you do?

             

            Work with two frames.

            1. A rectangular text frame holding the text

            2. An oval graphic shape where text wrap is set to inverse and where you can edit the wrap by adding path points and adjusting the path points of the wrap

             

            Here an example from my German InDesign CS6:

             

            1. Side by side: A rectangular text frame and a ellipse shaped graphic frame with textwrap applied.

            Note the checked option "Reverse" ("Umkehren" in German). And a little negative offset to get easier access to the path of the textwrap.

             

            1-TextWrap-On-Ellipsis-ReverseWrap.png

             

            2. The ellipse shaped graphic frame sits on top of the text frame:

            2-TextWrap-On-Ellipsis-ReverseWrap-AboveRectangularTextFrame.png

             

            3. Editing the text wrap path by adding path points and moving path points of the text wrap.
            Note: I added one path point in the upper left quadrant of the text wrap path.

             

            3-TextWrap-On-Ellipsis-EditingWrap.png

            Use the path drawing tool to add anchor points:

             

            4-Tool-AddAnchorPoints.png

             

            Regards,
            Uwe

            • 3. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
              The111 Level 1

              the problem here is, that InDesign is using the leading and the character's invisible bounding box of the glyph to determine what fits in and what is not. InDesign is not using the shape of the glyph to do the calculation.

              Thanks for the workaround ideas. I do not agree with the quote above though. The bounding box of capital Z is a square spaced evenly around the Z. And even if the box was somehow unevenly padded, no such uneven padding could account for the behavior here. The line of Z's which is just slightly above center has a huge padding on the left, while the line of Z's which is just slightly below center has no padding. And yet the Z starting each of those lines has to have the same bounding box. This is nothing more than a software but on Adobe's part. I guess I will be stuck using the workarounds.

              • 4. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                Bounding box may not be a good term. Back when type was made of metal you would have referred to this as the type slug, and the height of all type of a particular size was the same, regardless of the visual height of a particular glyph.

                 

                The slug height includes space for glyphs with ascenders and descenders, as well as a certain amount of space above and below, and between, the glyphs themselves (called, top, bottom and side bearing, respectively) to provide spacing between the letters.

                 

                If you highlight the text in the second row of your ellipse you should see the highlight matching the size of the type slug and leading, and I think you will see that the top of that highlight is at the edge of the ellipse.

                • 5. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                  The111 Level 1

                  If you highlight the text in the second row of your ellipse you should see the highlight matching the size of the type slug and leading, and I think you will see that the top of that highlight is at the edge of the ellipse.

                  No, that is not the case, which is why I said what I did. See below, all text selected.

                  p44P6q1.png

                  • 6. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                    Pickory Level 3

                    Could the overset text be affecting what you are seeing?

                     

                    P.

                     

                    The spaces will be affecting the wrap. No answer, but it is interesting.

                    Screen Shot 2016-06-22 at 18.30.39.png

                    • 7. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      What are the paragraph alignment, balance ragged lines, and paragraph composer settings?

                      • 8. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                        The111 Level 1

                        Peter Spier wrote:

                         

                        What are the paragraph alignment, balance ragged lines, and paragraph composer settings?

                        I've tried every setting for all of those, and none of them make a difference. BUT, I did just realize the source of the problem. It's the "leading" value which causes the lines to have spacing within a paragraph.

                         

                        If I set leading to the same as the font size, or even slightly smaller (e.g. zero line spacing), then the problem goes away (but then I also have no line spacing, which I want). See first image below (14pt font, 12pt "leading").

                         

                        Basically, the bounding box of a letter extends far enough above that letter to include the empty space above it, all the way to the bottom of the next line. See sloppy sketch on top of second image to confirm this.

                         

                        So what I need instead of just "leading" space, is equally distributed "leading" and "trailing" space so that the letters stay centered vertically in their bounding boxes (instead of sinking to bottom as they do now). Is any such thing possible? Or is there some other method of creating space in a paragraph that might not create these invisible boxes?

                         

                        1.png

                        2.png

                        • 9. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Now that you have found the real cause of the problem, I see the following option:

                           

                          Two shapes, one ellipse shaped text frame where you add path points and move them to give the text the right form plus a graphic frame stacked behind the text frame, exactly ellipse shaped, for stroke and fill color.

                           

                          I digged out an old blog post from 2008 about a comparable issue where the cause of your problem is illustrated and seems the same:

                          http://indesignsecrets.com/fixing-droopy-wraps.php

                           

                          Dave Saunder's WrapNudger script presented there is still working with the latest InDesign version, but it will not help in your case. Just tested that. If you ever want to work with a textwrap solution, moving or expanding the whole path of the wrap is no solution. And that is exactly that, what Dave's script is doing.

                           

                          Note: In case you wanted to test the script, Dave's website where the WrapNudger script could be downloaded, is not available anymore. I have the script in my repository but cannot share it without permission of Dave.

                           

                          Uwe

                          • 10. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Try setting the vertical justification to Justified in the text frame options.

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                              Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Yeah, Peter!
                              That's it.

                               

                              Vertical justification of the text frame options is set, leading is very small (compared to the point size).

                              You have to play around a bit with the amount of leading to best fit the shape.

                               

                              Verticaljustification-LeadingVerySmall.png

                               

                              Thank you,
                              Uwe

                              • 12. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                                The111 Level 1

                                Laubender wrote:

                                 

                                Yeah, Peter!
                                That's it.

                                 

                                Vertical justification of the text frame options is set, leading is very small (compared to the point size).

                                No, unfortunately that is not it. Vertical justification doesn't change anything. Setting leading to be very small does, as I pointed out earlier, but I don't want to be forced to use very small leading. I want space between my lines.

                                 

                                Thanks for the suggestions though!

                                • 13. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                                  Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Ok. Sorry, my screenshots are from my German InDesign, so you might have missed Peter's or my point perhaps.
                                  You need a small leading value on the text plus vertical justification on the text frame. The effective leading will be bigger than the value you are using.

                                   

                                  But it will depend on the amount of lines you want to put into the oval.

                                   

                                  Here the evolution of text formatting in four steps. Not perfect, but not that bad either, I think.

                                   

                                  FitTextToOvalShape.png
                                  Step 4 added some changes in text size, used paragraph composer settings and changed values for character and word spaces. Also a non-breaking formatting of the first two words.

                                   

                                  Regards,
                                  Uwe

                                  • 14. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    And in case it is not clear, for vertical justification to work you need to have less text than required to completely fill the frame so it is forced to spread out. I'll take Uwe's word for it that you need a small leading number, but I think anything should work as long as there is less text than would fill the frame if the justification were set to top or bottom.

                                    • 15. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                                      The111 Level 1

                                      Yeah, I should have realized that. And yes, it does fix the border fit issue, but it sort of introduces a new one. The horizontal justification of the text inside the circle now is much "denser" the further down the circle you go. This is visible in the 3rd and 4th examples in post 13 above, as well as the one I'm attaching here. The spacing between words in the first couple rows is much larger than it is in the last rows. Most likely I will just be using the original workarounds presented, but it sucks that such a simple problem is not solved correctly with the software being used as intended.

                                       

                                      3.png

                                      • 16. Re: Text inside ellipse aligns differently at top and bottom
                                        Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        The horizontal justification of the text inside the circle now is much "denser" the further down the circle you go. This is visible in the 3rd and 4th examples in post 13 above, as well as the one I'm attaching here. The spacing between words in the first couple rows is much larger than it is in the last rows.

                                         

                                        You can control the spacing of words and characters in your paragraph settings.
                                        As long as there are spaces between the words. Plus several options for fully justified text.

                                         

                                        Do not judge what will happen to "real world text" by using "ABCD" or "z z z z" text strings only.
                                        ( I assume, that you will use a different text in the oval. )

                                         

                                        Here some screenshots that illustrate the behavior of text depending on various settings for paragraphs, text frames and even stories:

                                         

                                        TextInOval-Spaces-Paragraph-Settings.png

                                         

                                         

                                        Paragraph justification is set to fully justified, single word justification is set to center align.

                                        With the selected text frame a different story setting will influence the spacing tremendously:

                                        Optical margin alignment set to 14 pt.

                                        TextInOval-Story-Settings.png

                                         

                                        Different leading will do subtle changes:

                                        TextInOval-DifferentLeadingSettings.png

                                         

                                        Text frame options where the first baseline offset is set to cap height will make a difference.

                                        TextInOval-TextFrameOptions.png

                                         

                                        So you have plenty of options to adjust your text.

                                         

                                        Uwe