1 2 Previous Next 52 Replies Latest reply on Jul 11, 2016 1:16 PM by T T O M O

    Hate the new Select and Mask tool!

    Jiweeon Level 1

      Getting rid of the Refine Edge tool is probably the biggest set back in the history of PS. I love this tool and use it constantly to get my masks just right. The new Select and Mask tool only works on pixel layers. I understand that in order for the edge detection/radius tool to work properly the mask must be on a pixel layer. However, that tool isn't all that refine edge offers! The smooth, feather, contrast, and shift edge tool are extremely powerful, as well as quick and easy, when working with masks on adjustment layers. My quick short cut into refine edge no longer works. I have to either drag the mask to a pixel layer or find other ways to adjust it. None are as efficient as a quick option/command R and typing in my adjustments as I tab through the refinements. I am EXTREMELY frustrated and disappointed. Does anyone know of any work arounds to get refine edge back? Please help!!!!!!!

        • 1. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
          Mohammad.Harb MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Hi Jiweeon ,

          The Select and Mask Command is Extremely better than refine edge,

          in refine edge , you have to make selection first then Refine it,

          Refine edges now has been re-Engineered and given and New Name ,

          Now you can start your Selection and refine it All in one Place .

           

          To get back to the older refine Edge:

          in the Creative Cloud Applicaiton , next to Photoshop you Will find an Open Icon , there is a hidden GEAR icon left to it

          Click Uninstall , then Reinstall Photoshop ..when it asked to Update to 2015.5  click on the advanced Tab

          and uncheck "delete older Version "

           

           

           

          • 2. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
            Jiweeon Level 1

            Thank you for letting me know to get back to the older version. I am

            extremely sad to see the refine edge tool go the way it has. I completely

            disagree with you. Refine edge allows you to edit masks quickly and

            efficient on the fly. It required a key short cut and quickly entering in

            values. Now I have to enter this whole other tool in order to edit my mask.

            You do not have to make a selection in order to use refine edge. You can

            use refine edge on ANY mask at any point. It doesn't bog your machine down

            and I can use it over and over with my history brush tool to get a mask

            just right. If nothing at all... you should at least make it so you can

            refine masks on a non pixel layer.

             

            For example - Lets say I have a mask I've created using Select and Mask...

            I then use this mask on a group of layers. Then, as I'm working I notice

            that there is a halo around my object and would like to shift the mask

            edge... so I go to my mask that is now on my group and try and contract

            (shift edge) the mask. I cannot easily do this anymore. I have to drag the

            mask back to a pixel layer and figure out how I'm going to view it properly

            so I know how much I need to shift my edge. Just insane that you think this

            new tool is better.

             

            This is a huge set back. Creating masks isn't always as simple as your new tool would like to

            think it is.

             

             

            On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Mohammad.Harb <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

            • 3. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
              gomez1856

              Would you mind commenting on his point that the new tool only works on pixel layers?   I'm incredibly frustrated after about an hour of working in the new version because of this.   Let's say I have an adjustment layer active.   I typically quickly make a selection, hit refine edge to do just that, and then fill selection with black or whatever I need to do to make my mask.   To the best of my understanding, I can't do this anymore.   If I'm seeing it wrong, Please let me know.  I always hate to see a lot of backlash from users after upgrades and decisions, but man I sure am feeling it on this one.   I would love to be proven wrong though and see how much better the new tool is.

               

              Thanks!

              Rick

              • 4. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                postt62981012

                Jiweeon is spot on here, his opinion is shared by myself and all of the Photographers and Retouchers that I personally know. This new tool is not only buggy, but an attempt of dumbing down Photoshop in an area that hurts.

                 

                This was a very simple tool to begin with... You make a selection through whatever means you prefer: Pen tool, Lasso, Color Range, Magic Wand, Quick Select, etc, then just hit Refine Edge and brush in areas that need it and use the subtract brush where you don't need it.

                 

                How is this update improving on that workflow?

                 

                Important detail: not every selection we make needs Refine Edge and sometimes we realize we need it after already making a selection, so why would you tie the selection process to the Refine Edge process? Why not keep them separate? You need Refine Edge for one of your selections? Cool, use Refine Edge. I'm not saying that you've tied the selection process entirely to the Select and Mask Tool, but you've certainly made it clear that a simplified Selection/Refine all-in-one tool is taking the place of a very useful, independent tool. At the very least, make it possible for Select and Mask to operate as it once did by fixing the Subtract Refine Edge brush. That way, I can make a decent selection using all the tools available in Photoshop and hit Select&Mask and Add/Subtract Refine Edge and hit 'Okay.'

                 

                Also, if this is an extremely better version of making selections overall, then why are the only tools available in it the Brush Tool, Quick Select, and Lasso? Surely you know how limited a selection can potentially be using only these tools...

                 

                If you're not going to return Refine Edge, make it possible for professional users to use Select and Mask as an independent Refine Edge tool. The Subtract Refine Edge tool is broken. With that flaw, it exposes how bad the Selection options are in Select and Mask. If I can't subtract the Refine Edge effects, that forces me to use the limited tools that you included in Select and Mask to fix my mask back to where it was before in some areas.

                 

                 

                It speaks volumes that the majority of the videos regarding this new tool are about Onion Skin. Great layout for some, I'm sure, but the tool has broken functions... Where are the priorities here?

                • 5. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                  Jiweeon Level 1

                  postt62981012 described the issues with Select and Mask perfectly. Many of us have a workflow that works beautifully and efficiently with refine edge. After watching multiple tutorials on your new Select and Mask tool, it is obvious that you are catering to the unprofessionals at home who wish to easily mask out people and animals from their original backgrounds. I get that no one likes change, but it is ludicrous to me that you are trying to sell this tool to professionals as a powerful way to quickly make/adjust masks. Refining edges is not a global process, it is very subjective and needs to be viewed as so. We need to quickly be able to adjust for different areas of a mask and selectively brush in where these adjustments have been made. Something that fades into a background may need multiple Refine Edge adjustments and selective history brushing to get it just right. Stop making your primary focus on refining hair and fur. It's great if you want to have a SEPARATE task tool for that, such as Select and Mask, but do NOT get rid of refine edge and replace it with this. Not everyone is working with hair or texture when they are creating a mask.

                   

                  You took something that wasn't broken and shattered it into a million pieces.

                   

                  I am frustrated that I had to reinstall the older version of Photoshop. At some point I will need to update and I hope the new update reintroduces refine edge and keeps Select and Mask as a separate task tool. You know, for the moms at home making cat memes.

                  • 6. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                    Mohammad.Harb MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    HI Jiweeon.

                    I do understand your Point ,,,  Let's consider " Select and Mask " as if its first version and it will have New improvements in the upcoming updates,  if you use Photoshop  years ago back in CS4  there was Nothing called refine radius Tool in refine edge!

                    and in CS3 there was nothing called Refine edge.

                     

                    To get the " Select and Mask "  on any layer Mask ( even ) on Adjustment Layer ... the keyboard shortcut in NOT Working .. its been Missed .... But for Now  Double Click on the Mask to Get into the Selection and Mask.  it works 100%

                     

                    if you want to Apply select and Mask on Any Layer .. convert it to smart Object

                     

                    When we use a Mask we usually Use " Brush Tool " not the Histroy Brush Tool as you mentioned above

                    We  paint with White to Reveal the hidden Area and Paint with Black to Hide Visible Area.

                    2 people found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                      baer2 Adobe Employee (Admin)

                      Thank you all for your comments here, we are actively looking into the behaviors described. If you have any files you can send us where you see a notable degradation in output using select and mask, we want those files. These will help us identify specific issues in the workflow and with the underlying algorithm.

                       

                      One of the behaviors described in this thread is that select and mask only works on a pixel layer. This is a bug (we have a fix we're working on) and in the meantime, a workaround is available by double clicking the mask to enter the select and mask space on non-pixel layers.

                       

                      We are also actively looking at the performance of the subtract refine edge brush- please stay tuned for more updates here as we build a case to identify exactly what the underlying issue might be.

                       

                      This is the first release of Select and Mask, but we do have on our backlog the addition of other tools in this space to allow a greater range of workflow. More to come here.

                      • 8. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                        Jiweeon Level 1

                        Mohammad,

                        I am very hopeful for the updates improving Select and Mask. I don't feel like bringing up past CS versions is valid in this discussion. I mentioned refine radius slider as one of the options in the refine edge tool. I never said that was what I used the tool exclusively for. I basically was saying the opposite, which is that I use the tool often for the simple edge refinement options, such as feather, contrast, smooth, and shift edge. The fact is that we have all been using it for years and it has become a strong part of our workflow. To my knowledge and understanding, retouchers and photographers haven't been complaining about the function of this tool. Why take it away completely and give us a task tool in its place?

                         

                        Adobe definitely has no problem keeping various comparable tools around... for example, there are two filter options now - Blur and Blur Gallery. Both blur filter options have similar features. One is more advanced than the other, but Adobe still chose to keep the simpler version around. Another example is the healing brush and the spot healing brush. One is quick and dirty, while the other is more advanced.

                         

                        Adobe should do the same thing here. Keep both Select and Mask and Refine Edge. Refine edge has so many fantastic uses and is more efficient than a task tool such as Select and Mask. Also, per your comment about brushing white/black for masks... I know exactly how masks work. I don't think you are understanding the implementation of the history brush tool when used in conjunction with refine edge. Seems to me that your argument against refine edge has been formed without a full understanding of its usability among professionals. You should also know that making layers into unnecessary smart objects is down right stupid and annoying. Complicating a workflow to accommodate a new tool is a major fail on Adobe's part.

                         

                        Keep Refine Edge around until Adobe has perfected Select and Mask (or better yet, keep both). Simple as that.

                        • 9. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                          Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                          Guys I have had a good look at this, and I am not having the same issues.  Yes it is different, and I agree it was initially frustrating because I had to learn a new workflow, but I think it is definitely better.

                           

                          You can certainly access the Select & Mask workspace on an Adjustment layer, by double clicking the layer mask.  You can exit that by either clicking on OK or Cancel, or hitting the Escape key.

                           

                          As far as I can see, everything that was in Refine Edge is there in the Select & Mask workspace, plus more.  I really think I must be missing something, because I am not seeing what you guys seem to be seeing.  I've just read the whole thread again, and noticed that Adobe Staff member baer2 has reflected what I said about double clicking the layer mask on adjustment layers.  Is that such a hardship?

                          • 10. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                            Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                            Trevor.Dennis wrote:

                             

                            Guys I have had a good look at this, and I am not having the same issues. Yes it is different, and I agree it was initially frustrating because I had to learn a new workflow, but I think it is definitely better.

                             

                            You can certainly access the Select & Mask workspace on an Adjustment layer, by double clicking the layer mask. You can exit that by either clicking on OK or Cancel, or hitting the Escape key.

                             

                            As far as I can see, everything that was in Refine Edge is there in the Select & Mask workspace, plus more. I really think I must be missing something, because I am not seeing what you guys seem to be seeing. I've just read the whole thread again, and noticed that Adobe Staff member baer2 has reflected what I said about double clicking the layer mask on adjustment layers. Is that such a hardship?

                            I agree wholeheartedly.  It does have a learning curve and I suspect that that's the real issue for those that are unhappy.

                            • 11. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                              Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                              Socrates_in_NJ wrote:

                               

                              I agree wholeheartedly. It does have a learning curve and I suspect that that's the real issue for those that are unhappy.

                              Glad I am not the only one seeing it this way.  Blokes don't like to read instructions, but Julianne Kost covers it in a fairly painless way

                              Select and Mask «  Julieanne Kost's Blog

                               

                              As usual, she demystifies all the major changes in her blog:  I refuse to link to the ridiculous Crop and fill feature, but her video on the new Typographic features is well worth a watch.

                               

                              2 people found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                T.Dolfi Level 1

                                I think you and Trevor are not seeing the point here:

                                the tool itself works great, no one is complaining about that, the frustration comes from the fact that it doesn't improve the Refine Edge tool but it's completely replacing it.

                                And in my case, it just shouldn't.

                                As mentioned before, the Refine Edge tool is the quickest solution to modify a mask or a selection, and that's how is supposed to be. I don't want a new task window opened every time I got to edit masks/selections, I simply don't want to wait that extra time.

                                This new tool does its job fine, but sometime it's like going after a mosquito with a bazooka, and when it's not necessary it's just a waste of time and computing resources.

                                I deal with a lot, a lot, of pen selections for masks in my projects and in the last few days I found that the workflow was faster and smoother with old Refine Edge.

                                I'm not asking Adobe to go full inversion and downgrade the software, Select and Mask has its use and purpose, but for me it should be a whole new and DIFFERENT feature, not an upgrade, living side by side with Refine Edge.

                                • 13. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                  Jiweeon Level 1

                                  Exactly. They are dancing around the issues that we have presented in this discussion. We understand the advancements that have been presented with Select and Mask.. as well as the improvements to come in later versions... but it is not a tool that should replace refine edge.

                                   

                                  Time is money... efficiency is key. The improvements you are hoping to make with Select and Mask in the future are irrelevant. The point is that it is slower and takes you into a new task window. When working quickly through layer masks, task windows are a serious frustration. For something used as often as refine edge, a new task window will NEVER be ok.

                                  • 14. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                    Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                                    Jiweeon wrote:

                                     

                                    Time is money... efficiency is key. 

                                    That's precisely why Select & Mask is really great...

                                     

                                    ...for those that take the time to learn how to use it properly.

                                    • 15. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                      T.Dolfi Level 1

                                      Do you even read messages before adding useless, non-constructive replies?

                                      If so, please restrain yourself since we are in a topic created to help Adobe achieve a better product with feedbacks based on our experience as users.

                                      I'll take the time and effort to try and explain it again, although I think I made my point pretty clear with the previous post (the one you are supposed to read and understand before replying):

                                       

                                      there's nothing, NOTHING, to learn on Select and Mask, unless you are a newbie and in that case this discussion should not concern you, because anyone with basic skills will be able to create selections through the new feature using the available tools.

                                      And that's exactly what's wrong with it: you may be amused by the improved smart radius or the onion skin feature, but I don't have to play around with furry cats and model's hair, I DON'T NEED TO, what I need to do is create very refined selections by hand - combining paths, channels and quick selections methods (based on in/out of focus areas and colors) - and then I might need to make slight changes adjusting the selection's contrast and feather, and again, I DON'T WANT TO WORK IN A NEW TASK WINDOW BECAUSE THERE'S NO NEED AND IT'S A WASTE OF TIME AND MACHINE'S RESOURCES.

                                      The whole process gets slower and heavier and it could be of no concern for you if your workflow doesn't imply countless selections and paths.

                                      Obviously there is a kind of workaround for some quick fixes, like having a dedicated properties panel where you get quick access to a mask's density and feather, but it's not the same and it will never be as complete as Refine Edge.

                                       

                                      We are talking about two different things here, and you insist in claiming that Select and Mask is "really great" but that's not an answer to "why do I have to wait for a new dedicated task window to open when all I have to do is bring the selection's contrast to 15% and I could quickly and simply do it with the Refine Edge tool?"

                                       

                                      I DON'T NEED A TOOL TO CREATE SELECTIONS WHEN I JUST HAVE TO MODIFY A SELECTION I ALREADY HAVE!

                                       

                                      That's the point. Even the naming is self-explanatory enough: if I have to refine some edges I want the REFINE EDGE tool, not the SELECT AND MASK.

                                       

                                       

                                      Can you understand the difference now?

                                      • 16. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                        Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                                        If you would spend the amount of effort learning the tool that you spent in your rant, you'd appreciate the value of this PS improvement.

                                        • 17. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                          Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                          Select & Mask remembers and opens with the last used settings , so if you twirl down Edge Detection and Global Refinements and select the Refine Edge Brush, the next time you open S&M it has all the old Refine Edge tools and sliders right there.  You can ignore the additional features if you feel they slow you down. 

                                           

                                          One thing that I found useful is the situation where the best edge radius for one part of your selection, causes leakage, or a thinning of the edge of solid edged areas.  I'm sure you know what I mean.  My answer to that has been to check Decontaminate colours, which forces the output to new layer with mask, and fix the thin edges with the layer mask.  But if you paint over those thin areas with the brush tool

                                          ...it firms those areas up again.  So that's score one for S&M. 

                                           

                                          I am not quite as sold on the new workflow as the New Jersey philosopher back up the thread, but I seem to be homing in on a useful workflow that is getting me similar results to before.

                                          • 18. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                            Jiweeon Level 1

                                            T.Dolfi is SPOT ON!

                                             

                                            The bottom line is... when a mask needs MULTIPLE refine edge adjustments... like multiple feathering or edge shifting (different effects are achieved when you compound refine edge adjustments over and over to one mask)... NO PROFESSIONAL is going to want to open a task window over and over to make adjustments. Many of us create very intricate masks that involve the use of multiple selection tools, channels, and paths. What makes you think that one quick visit to your Select and Mask tool will solve all of the edge refinements that need to be made??

                                             

                                            Adobe - Make us all happy and just keep both REFINE EDGE and SELECT AND MASK. Then you can spend the following months to years perfecting/developing this tool that you all believe to be so powerful. I don't doubt that some day it will be as amazing as you all claim, but right now it's more of a nuisance than a saving grace.

                                             

                                            Socrates_in_NJ... Clearly, you must know more than we do. After watching that enlightening tutorial above, all my problems still remain... hmmmm, how could that be? Maybe you can teach us where we are all going wrong. Or maybe you can accept that Adobe doesn't always make strides in the right direction. Hence the new check box "Use Legacy Healing Algorithm for the Healing Brush" found in the CC 2015.5 preferences.

                                            • 19. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                              Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                                              Jiweeon wrote:

                                               

                                              What makes you think that one quick visit to your Select and Mask tool will solve all of the edge refinements that need to be made??

                                              Who said that?

                                              • 20. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                Bombelkie

                                                This new update has seriously set me back... It used to take me about 15min to make a nice/perfect mask.... With this update I've been working on the same photo for hours now and can't get anything close to what I used to be able to get. You see I'm working with a subject against a black background... some of the edges get really close to the same color as the background. with the REFINE EDGE tool it would still find the edges (then I would go in and simply refine just the edge), now all it does is remove the dark areas from background as well as the subject, no matter how many times i try to hone the edges with all the different brushes... it still keeps removing colors that i need in some areas. It can't, and won't, just select the edges that i want.... LOVE THE HAIR THING!!! (infact that was the one thing that made me struggle).... but I noticed that all your video tutorials are showing photos taken against a light background (contrast)... this will not work for what I'm doing, all my images are against a dark background. Why not keep both REFINE EDGE and SELECT AND MASK?  First time ever Adobe has let me down. 

                                                • 21. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                  Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                                  Jiweeon wrote:

                                                   

                                                  T.Dolfi is SPOT ON!

                                                   

                                                  The bottom line is... when a mask needs MULTIPLE refine edge adjustments... like multiple feathering or edge shifting (different effects are achieved when you compound refine edge adjustments over and over to one mask)... NO PROFESSIONAL is going to want to open a task window over and over to make adjustments. Many of us create very intricate masks that involve the use of multiple selection tools, channels, and paths. What makes you think that one quick visit to your Select and Mask tool will solve all of the edge refinements that need to be made??

                                                  But like I keep saying, the S&M workspace is a single click exactly the same as the old Refine Edge.  The same tools are there when you open the workspace.  When I have a complex selection I output to new layer with layer mask from Refine edge, and then use clipping paths, Calculations, alpha channels etc to clean up the layer mask.  That's not going to change.   I'm struggling to understand what you think is making life hard for you.

                                                   

                                                  OK we need to double click layer masks to access the S&M workspace, but a) that really isn't a huge deal, and b) Adobe Staff have talked about fixing that with an update.

                                                   

                                                  We see this every time a tool has a major update.  I have had the odd rant myself in this forum over the years, like when the Crop tool changed with CS6.  You'd have to drag me kicking and screaming back to the old method now though.  As a matter of fact I was on a deadline the same day as I updated to 2015.5, and had a wee panic attack, but I took a deep breath, and it worked for me.

                                                   

                                                  So bottom line.  Why is clicking on the S&M icon more time consuming than clicking on the old Refine Edge icon? 

                                                  • 22. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                    T.Dolfi Level 1

                                                    You are right when you say:

                                                    Trevor.Dennis wrote:

                                                     

                                                    the S&M workspace is a single click exactly the same as the old Refine Edge. The same tools are there when you open the workspace.

                                                    in fact my main problem, and I think the same applies to others here in the thread - but given that english isn't my first language I could be missing some nuances -  and all over the world, it's that little detail of the new workspace window.

                                                     

                                                    Yes, it's not a big deal, nonetheless it's a step backward for many reasons:

                                                    1) takes more time to load then the Refine Edge dialog box (both in opening and closing the window) and it could be of no concern for some, while for others it's a useless step that could simply be avoided

                                                    2) goes full screen, at least on my current workspace, and with a quick glance at the preferences I wasn't able to find any option to change it

                                                    3) it's laggy

                                                     

                                                    Bare in mind that I'm talking about my personal experience on my workstations, and in different scenarios (different projects, different operations, different hardware) it would probably behave differently.

                                                     

                                                    But again the point being: why does it have to replace it? Rolling out a new tool involves patches and tweaking, that's fair and I am cool with it because it's what drives innovation, but there's absolutely non need to remove a tool that was working fine like Refine Edge while you are working on the Select and Mask fixings. I mean, keep 'em both and move on with the replacement once the software is 100% refined, let the users enjoy the best out of Photoshop without forcing everyone to deal with slodowns due to bugs and laggy sliders.

                                                     

                                                    I'll give a different point of view on the matter, bringing the discussion to an ideal extreme so that even our Troll friend in NJ would feel at home smelling some Socratic irony in the air:

                                                    Let's say that Adobe releases the "Amazing Selection" tool, one selection tool that reads your mind and it's supposed to be the ultimate evolution of any tool, would anyone be against it? I don't think so.

                                                    Now let's say that as usual this Amazing Selection tool doesn't work all that great at first; they will get it right eventually, but right now it's just not cutting it, so what? No problem at all, we have our good 'ol suite of tools available and we will keep using it, simple.

                                                    And here comes Adobe saying "Well my beloved children, you COULD be using the tools if there were any left. Unfortunately we removed all of them because this new tool is so much better. Don't worry, just hang on and wish us the best of luck. We will release a fix soon as possible, in the meantime enjoy yourself!"

                                                     

                                                    Now, how is one supposed to react to that?

                                                     

                                                    @Socrates_in_NJ

                                                    Feel free to misunderstand everything and go straight into loading Photoshop only to look for the Amazing Selection tool (beware: it needs a mind to read to work properly, your anatomy might not fit the requirements)

                                                    • 23. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                      Bombelkie Level 1

                                                      2016-07-01 (1).png

                                                      2016-07-01.png

                                                      As you can see something that took just 15 mins has taken 1h and still not even close to the same results. I have to go in and paint the mask which takes an extra long amount of time. Time is money and I am getting backed up immensely.  People on here are saying that we don't want to take the time to learn the new Select and Mask Command, that's not the problem. The problem is the fact that you have gone and simply replaced it and not simply added it as a new option just doesn't make any sense. You have added hours to something that took no more then 15mins and still doesn't work half as good as something that worked perfectly.

                                                       

                                                      Just bring the refine tool back. Im paying for something that just "SUBSTANTIALLY" delayed my work flow.

                                                      • 24. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                        Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                                                        T.Dolfi wrote:

                                                         

                                                        @Socrates_in_NJ

                                                        Feel free to misunderstand everything and go straight into loading Photoshop only to look for the Amazing Selection tool (beware: it needs a mind to read to work properly, your anatomy might not fit the requirements)

                                                        Coming from someone that refuses to learn, those comments have no substance.

                                                        • 25. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                          Socrates_in_NJ Level 2

                                                          Just bring the refine tool back. Im paying for something that just "SUBSTANTIALLY" delayed my work flow.

                                                          The new tool has SUBSTANTIALLY sped up my work flow.  Of course, I did take the time to learn how to use it.

                                                          • 26. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                            baer2 Adobe Employee (Admin)

                                                            Can you provide this image to us for testing?

                                                            • 27. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                              Bombelkie Level 1

                                                              Would be more than happy to help fix this issue. I am extremely behind because of this new tool. How do I do this?

                                                              • 28. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                baer2 Adobe Employee (Admin)

                                                                I will contact you directly via email. Thanks

                                                                • 29. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                  photostephen Level 1

                                                                  I am not against new tools. but I am being hit with a major bug in the Select and Mask tool, and on my Windows based computer, it is totally not working.  When I use the Refine Edge brush, it just randomly unselects already selected areas and randomly selects areas which are not even close to the selection.  Basically, on my computer, it just randomly picks about 30% of the image at random. 

                                                                  And any selection that I started with, looks significanly worse than if I had just not tried to enhance it.

                                                                   

                                                                  I want the old Refine Edge back, because it works!  Not a buggy new tool.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                    Jiweeon Level 1

                                                                    Socrates_in_NJ...

                                                                    What is your purpose in this discussion? To play devils advocate to everything anyone ever says? Why don't you do us all a favor and actually say something constructive. You have done nothing but annoy everyone and definitely aren't doing Adobe any favors with your immaturity. If you want to convice the world that this new tool is worth keeping around than you're gonna have to take a new, more intellectual approach.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                      Terri Stevens Adobe Community Professional

                                                                      Rick the tool does work on adjustment layer masks, all you need to do is double click the mask. It is activated from Preferences, but I'm fairly sure it is on by default.

                                                                      lm.png

                                                                      • 32. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                        Terri Stevens Adobe Community Professional

                                                                        that wasn't a rant Socrates it was a fair exposition of an OP's frustration with the tool . I like the new S&M but its perfectly fair to point out sometimes a mild tweak to a selection is all that is required and S&M is largely geared to creating and then refining entire selections.

                                                                         

                                                                        It amuses me a little that professionals are so reliant on refine edge though as it never was and probably never can be the best way to make highly accurate masks. Accurate masking is a skill in its own right and I don't mind admitting I have spent a couple of hours sometimes building a mask up from three or even four separate selections obtained by channel pulling techniques, calculations commands, apply image, dodging and burning, overlay painting and other methods. There is no way Adobe or even dedicated plugin builders can provide a single tool capable of being as precise as those techniques and so they need to present a compromises solution that is good but not perfect.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                          KimberlyPek Level 1

                                                                          I too am having difficulty with this tool. If I already made a perfect selection/mask, why should i go back in and change my selection? It is driving me insane, and ruining my results. It is taking hours, and I can't edit previously made masks without reselecting them. Please bring back refine edge by itself. PLEASE.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                            KimberlyPek Level 1

                                                                            Can you temporarily bring back refine edge until bugs are fixed? This is killing my work flow!

                                                                            • 35. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                              Jiweeon Level 1

                                                                              Terri_Stevens... I appreciate your openness to seeing both sides of this argument. However, no one in this discussion has said that they "make highly accurate masks" WITH refine edge. In fact we explain how it takes a handful of tools and other resources (just as you said) to make accurate masks... and that creating masks can definitely be a very complicated, time consuming task. What refine edge provides is a quick edge refinement that can be made multiple times, very quickly. And paired up with the history brush, refine edge can help to make LOCALIZED adjustments to a mask efficient and easy. Entering a task tool each and every time to make a localized edge refinement is time costly and most definitely destroys a fluid workflow.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                                Terri Stevens Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                Fully agree with that. Refine Edge and hopefully the replacement is great for 'refining' and 'creating' simple masks so I don't think we are in disagreement here. All I am saying is a lot of people on the forum are getting disappointed because Select and Mask does not create 'complex' masks. I count anything with strands of hair, fur, low depth of field, low contrast, very similar color as complex to mask. I know those who use Photoshop for a living know its limitations but with the introduction of the Photographic plan I think I'm correct in saying Adobe has around 7 million subscriptions which means many people new to the program have no benchmark to apply and expect a capability that just is not there out of the box. I am all for a rapid refining tool like before, but we need to remember this is v1.0 and it is early days.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                                  Jiweeon Level 1

                                                                                  I see what you're saying. I just hope that Adobe can see that the professionals are in dire need of the old refine edge in order to work efficiently. The ability to jump in and out of refine edge was critical. For me, sometimes I use refine edge up to five or more times for one mask. I am very meticulous and want my masks as realistic and perfect as I can make them. Since this Select and Mask tool is so new, there isn't a whole lot that can be done inside this task tool that refine edge didn't do. It is daunting and frustrating to open S&M and wait for the task tool to load and then wait for it to render my refinements. S&M is no where near ready in its capabilities to make the kind of refinements we need in a few swift adjustments. So, I still need to visit this tool multiple times to locally adjust areas of a mask.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I understand that the sheer number of photographers, retouchers, students, and joe schmos at home that use PS have driven Adobe to change their mask refinement tool. Cutting out of objects and people is one of the hardest and probably one of the most common tasks Photoshop is used for. Catering to a large market of users, I can see why Adobe is trying to stream line this. Unfortunately, in doing so, they have gotten rid of an extremely powerful tool. Sometimes less is more. Let the professionals use the tools provided to make our own masks. We are smarter than the algorithm that is ATTEMPTING to make a perfect mask. And for some, S&M does a decent job...but in my industry our clients seek high quality work, perfection. We like having more control and refine edge allows for elevated/timely USER control. KEEP BOTH TOOLS!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Also, my continuous rant about the efficiency of refine edge is only half of it. S&M does a terrible job at refining edges. We all have been struggling to understand the algorithm and logic behind the new Edge Detection slider and Smart Radius box. If you check Smart Radius on, Edge detection JUMPS to 10 px and if you adjust for a lower px radius then Smart Radius turns off. I'm sure there is a reason for this, but my understanding is when you check smart radius on, you are allowing the computer to help detect for edges. Why now does it only let you check this on if Edge Detection is set to 10px??? Also, Edge Detection doesn't perform small enough movements, even when smart radius is turned off. The edge detection is too big, even when set to 1px. Here is an example of what a SIMPLE mask looks like with your new S&M tool compared to an example of how Refine Edge worked - both using smart radius. MaskProblems.jpg

                                                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                                                  • 38. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                                    T T O M O

                                                                                    This re-imagining of refine edge has been awful for me.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I disagree with anyone claiming that the tool needs to be learned. It's been demonstrated to have all the same options as refine edge. What time would be spent learning tools that are the "same"? There's nothing new to learn other than refine edge is now called select and mask and opens a new window with familiar options that don't work as well as they used to.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    - It's extremely laggy. I could easily drag the brush with refine edge, now there's a massive lag whether transparency is on or off.

                                                                                    - As you "refine", the image edge will first flicker and soften making it even harder to know what you're working with/on and the brush lag adds to that.

                                                                                    - refining does not seem to work as easily as before. What used to be a few simple strokes along an edge is now leaving a messy edge requiring a lot more work.

                                                                                    - IT'S LAGGY, I find it visually challenging to know what I'm doing. I didn't have this issue before. The results are different and the effort and time is prolonged despite these being the "exact" same tools.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Hate the new Select and Mask tool!
                                                                                      Terri Stevens Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                      Hi again,

                                                                                      I found what you have said a fair and balanced explanation of the problem you are experiencing. I'm not an apologist for Adobe, I don't get free software from them, but I can only speak as I find. I can understand fully why you want Refine Edge restored to the program and I certainly would not object to that, but I suspect they would say its still here just embedded into Select and Mask. The big problem as I see it is that Adobe evangelists like Julie Anne Kost and Terry White can get this tool to work well on difficult images, but there is no denying that a lot of people are having a tough time with the new tool.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      For what its worth my workflow is slightly different to yours. I hardly ever will use Edge Detect particularly with Smart Radius as 10pxs is far too big unless the image is high resolution. I will though use the Refine Edge brush with the radius set at 0px . I will also constantly be pressing the alt or option key to toggle between the + and - version of the brush and think that's essential.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I tried an exercise similar to yours on the image below.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Bruce-Willis1.jpg

                                                                                       

                                                                                      It was very easy to create a selection from withing S&M using the Quick Selection tool, which I think has been heavily up-rated to the point where less edge refinement is need. Below is the rubylith view

                                                                                      3.png

                                                                                      and on black

                                                                                      4.png

                                                                                      and on white

                                                                                      5.png

                                                                                      and below showing the transparency view. If you look carefully you can see areas of transparencey in the image marked with arrows. I don't worry about that as I can use the History brush to fix that outside of S&M

                                                                                      6.png

                                                                                      Normally I'd remove the halo around Mr Willis but the point of doing this is to show S&M in operation without enhancement. This composite took 10 minutes and so I personally can't make a good argument that the tool is near to useless as some people are claiming. There is a lot of frustration going on over this topic and I have been criticized more than once for just showing it works in most images , at least for me. I should say that I have a small group of people I'm responsible for in my job and they are fairly satisfied with S&M as well. I have seen the detect edge feature taking large chunks out of a selection, but surely the answer to that is reduce the radius and use the tools to paint back deletions.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Hopefully people now won't shoot the messenger again but I expect they will

                                                                                      Bruce-WillisComposite.png

                                                                                      1 2 Previous Next