11 Replies Latest reply on Jul 18, 2016 6:25 PM by wobertc

    Why has Metadata changed?

    wobertc Adobe Community Professional

      My catalog library of ~50,000 images has suddenly indicated that almost every image requires metadata to be updated. Only a few JPGs do not show this.

      So what has changed the Metadata in Lightroom? Any suggestions?

      ScreenShot079.jpg ScreenShot078.jpg

        • 2. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
          johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

          Did you save the metadata back to the files yet?  If not, it would be great if you could help troubleshoot this issue.  After many years of no reports about this, it seems the problem has come back in LR CC 2015.6 / 6.6.  Since the problem occurs very infrequently and no one knows how to reproduce it, your troubleshooting could be very helpful.

           

          Select one of the JPEGs whose metadata needs saving.  With the Mac Finder or Windows File Explorer, make a copy of the file. Then do Metadata > Save Metadata To File.  Upload the file and the copy you saved away to Dropbox (or similar) and post the link here.   This will help identify precisely which metadata fields have changed.

          • 3. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
            wobertc Adobe Community Professional

            I have placed two images with copies in the folder-

            An 'old' jpg- original {IM000014.JPG} (metadata saved) + Copy (made before saving metadata)

            A more recent DNG-  original {20151201-RHC-D750-7461.DNG} with metadata updated + copy before metadata update.

            Dropbox - Metadata

             

            Thanks for the offer to check any differences.

            I am surprised that the 'update' icon suddenly appeared on most of my images (~50,000)

             

            My system: Windows 10 LR-CC2015.6-   95% I convert and use DNG, 5% are derivatives JPG TIFF PSD etc.,

            I use "SyncBack Free" to regularly keep a 'mirror' backup of my images that are all stored on a dedicated internal drive.

            • 4. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
              trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Metadata changes have been made as follows:

               

              IM000014.jpg

              Keywords: Sports Cars < Motoring < TRANSPORTATION < WHAT #

               

              IM000014 - Copy.jpg

              Keywords: Sports Cars < Motoring < TRANSPORTATION

               

              20151201-RHC-D750-7461.dng

              Keywords: (NONE)

              Contact Info: YES

              Copyright Info: YES

               

              20151201-RHC-D750-7461 - Copy.dng

              Keywords: Decoration, LIGHT, Night, Trees

              Copyright Info: NO

              Contact Info: NO

               

              This is all visible inside LR's Metadata panel. You may not see the same metadata if the files were edited outside LR and not updated with

              'Read Metadata from File.'

              • 5. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                I've included complete difference listings of the output of "exiftool -a -G" below (personal info elided).  As trshaner observed, the .jpg has changes to the root of the keyword hierarchy, and the .dng has new keywords and copyright info added.  Did you make those changes recently?

                 

                $ diff IM000014.txt IM000014-copy.txt 
                3c3
                < [File]          File Name                      : IM000014.jpg
                ---
                > [File]          File Name                      : IM000014-copy.jpg
                6,7c6,7
                < [File]          File Modification Date/Time    : 2016:07:17 08:42:56-07:00
                < [File]          File Access Date/Time          : 2016:07:17 08:42:56-07:00
                ---
                > [File]          File Modification Date/Time    : 2013:08:18 02:21:44-07:00
                > [File]          File Access Date/Time          : 2013:08:18 02:21:44-07:00
                14c14
                < [File]          Current IPTC Digest            : 74bc1ff637ad44013af214864bddd502
                ---
                > [File]          Current IPTC Digest            : f4bd09897c7dfa3dc151b48cc8b05e0f
                74c74
                < [XMP]          XMP Toolkit                    : Adobe XMP Core 5.6-c011 79.156380, 2014/05/21-23:38:37
                ---
                > [XMP]          XMP Toolkit                    : Adobe XMP Core 5.5-c002 1.148022, 2012/07/15-18:06:45
                78c78
                < [XMP]          Metadata Date                  : 2016:07:17 18:42:57+10:00
                ---
                > [XMP]          Metadata Date                  : 2013:08:18 12:21:45+10:00
                81,83c81,83
                < [XMP]          Instance ID                    : xmp.iid:d09152ec-5ab4-f949-8b09-9fc5a7599dbf
                < [XMP]          Document ID                    : xmp.did:d09152ec-5ab4-f949-8b09-9fc5a7599dbf
                < [XMP]          Original Document ID            : xmp.did:d09152ec-5ab4-f949-8b09-9fc5a7599dbf
                ---
                > [XMP]          Instance ID                    : xmp.iid:d863108d-e3f6-9347-9492-9f68c5ef2715
                > [XMP]          Document ID                    : xmp.did:d863108d-e3f6-9347-9492-9f68c5ef2715
                > [XMP]          Original Document ID            : xmp.did:d863108d-e3f6-9347-9492-9f68c5ef2715
                85,86c85,86
                < [XMP]          Hierarchical Subject            : WHAT #|TRANSPORTATION|Motoring|Sports Cars
                < [XMP]          Subject                        : Motoring, Sports Cars, TRANSPORTATION, WHAT #
                ---
                > [XMP]          Hierarchical Subject            : TRANSPORTATION|Motoring|Sports Cars
                > [XMP]          Subject                        : Motoring, Sports Cars, TRANSPORTATION
                88,90c88,90
                < [XMP]          History Instance ID            : xmp.iid:d09152ec-5ab4-f949-8b09-9fc5a7599dbf
                < [XMP]          History When                    : 2016:07:17 18:42:57+10:00
                < [XMP]          History Software Agent          : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.6 (Windows)
                ---
                > [XMP]          History Instance ID            : xmp.iid:d863108d-e3f6-9347-9492-9f68c5ef2715
                > [XMP]          History When                    : 2013:08:18 12:21:45+10:00
                > [XMP]          History Software Agent          : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5.0 (Windows)
                94c94
                < [IPTC]          Keywords                        : Motoring, Sports Cars, TRANSPORTATION, WHAT #
                ---
                > [IPTC]          Keywords                        : Motoring, Sports Cars, TRANSPORTATION
                97c97
                < [Photoshop]    IPTC Digest                    : 74bc1ff637ad44013af214864bddd502
                ---
                > [Photoshop]    IPTC Digest                    : f4bd09897c7dfa3dc151b48cc8b05e0f
                

                 

                 

                $ diff 20151201-RHC-D750-7461.txt 20151201-RHC-D750-7461-copy.txt 
                2c2
                < [File]          File Name                       : 20151201-RHC-D750-7461.dng
                ---
                > [File]          File Name                       : 20151201-RHC-D750-7461-copy.dng
                5,6c5,6
                < [File]          File Modification Date/Time     : 2016:07:17 08:46:22-07:00
                < [File]          File Access Date/Time           : 2016:07:17 08:46:22-07:00
                ---
                > [File]          File Modification Date/Time     : 2016:01:25 01:59:42-08:00
                > [File]          File Access Date/Time           : 2016:01:25 01:59:42-08:00
                29d28
                < [EXIF]          Artist                          : Robert Cullen
                106d104
                < [EXIF]          Copyright                       : © 2015 Robert Cullen
                191c189
                < [XMP]           Metadata Date                   : 2016:07:17 18:46:23+10:00
                ---
                > [XMP]           Metadata Date                   : 2016:01:25 12:59:42+10:00
                201c199
                < [XMP]           Instance ID                     : xmp.iid:63e10763-4031-e147-a9b8-385b11ed7efa
                ---
                > [XMP]           Instance ID                     : xmp.iid:49c73e7b-e9dc-0445-aca9-1cf8faf7fb36
                203d200
                < [XMP]           Marked                          : True
                207,209c204,206
                < [XMP]           History Instance ID             : xmp.iid:94fa275c-82cd-8c40-98c4-6117d63708e3, xmp.iid:63e10763-4031-e147-a9b8-385b11ed7efa
                < [XMP]           History When                    : 2016:01:25 12:48:25+10:00, 2016:07:17 18:46:23+10:00
                < [XMP]           History Software Agent          : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.3 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.6 (Windows)
                ---
                > [XMP]           History Instance ID             : xmp.iid:94fa275c-82cd-8c40-98c4-6117d63708e3, xmp.iid:49c73e7b-e9dc-0445-aca9-1cf8faf7fb36
                > [XMP]           History When                    : 2016:01:25 12:48:25+10:00, 2016:01:25 12:59:42+10:00
                > [XMP]           History Software Agent          : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.3 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.3 (Windows)
                213,222c210,211
                < [XMP]           Creator                         : Robert Cullen
                < [XMP]           Rights                          : © 2015 Robert Cullen
                < [XMP]           Usage Terms                     : All Rights Reserved
                < [XMP]           Creator Postal Code             : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator Work Telephone          : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator Region                  : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator Country                 : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator City                    : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator Work Email              : ...
                < [XMP]           Creator Address                 : ...
                ---
                > [XMP]           Subject                         : Decoration, LECTURES, LIGHT, NATURE, Night, PLANTS, Trees
                > [XMP]           Hierarchical Subject            : Decoration, LECTURES|LIGHT, NATURE|PLANTS|Trees, Night
                
                • 6. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                  johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                  The root keyword "WHAT #" appears in the original .jpg but not the current one.  In the Keywording List, right-click "WHAT #" and select Edit.  Is the attribute Include On Export checked?

                  • 7. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                    wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                    Thankyou both  trshaner johnrellis.,

                    Your comprehensive answers are appreciated.

                     

                    Yes! I have been doing a major re-shuffle and re-organization of my keywords and their hierarchy which explains much.

                    So let me understand where keywords 'live'?

                    I do not regularly "Save metadata to file" [CTRL+S] and the "automatic write" option is not set in preferences. I rely on catalog backups to keep my LR info.

                     

                    So the final question- Can I just ignore the 'down arrow' icon on the thumbnails?

                    Is it just telling me I have changed some data, and do nothing more?

                     

                    (Comment: If I update the metadata to all my images (~50,000) then my 'mirror' backup will do a complete 'Delete and Re-write'.)

                    • 8. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                      trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      wobertc wrote:

                       

                      I do not regularly "Save metadata to file" [CTRL+S] and the "automatic write" option is not set in preferences. I rely on catalog backups to keep my LR info.

                       

                      So the final question- Can I just ignore the 'down arrow' icon on the thumbnails?

                      As long as all keywording and DNG editing was done inside LR your catalog file info is probably correct and up-to-date. Since you're not using 'Automatically write changes into XMP' and CTRL+S there should be no need to update the actual file metadata to resolve the conflict. Other users have reported this issue. My only concern is that you say almost every one of the 50,000 image files is showing a metadata conflict. Most users with this issue have random files with conflicts or smaller groups of files perhaps in only in one folder. If you're confident the entries in LR's metadata panel are as expected it should be safe to use 'Overwrite Settings' to resolve the metadata conflict. Updating a large number of files (50,000) with metadata conflict could take quite a long time (hours?). Make sure to backup your LR catalog file before doing anything. I suggest testing a group of image files in one folder by doing a before and after metadata check to make sure nothing is changed.

                       

                      It would be helpful to determine exactly what caused this issue so you can prevent it from happening in the future. Maybe

                      • 9. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                        johnrellis Most Valuable Participant
                        So the final question- Can I just ignore the 'down arrow' icon on the thumbnails?

                        Yes -- it's just telling you that what's in the catalog is newer than what's saved to disk.  Since you don't care about having the disk metadata match what's in the catalog, you can ignore the down arrow.

                         

                        Trshaner's last post is about something a little different, metadata conflicts.  They occur when LR has made changes to the metadata in the catalog and an external application has made changes to file.  These are indicated with an exclamation mark:

                        • 10. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                          johnrellis Most Valuable Participant

                          More generally, there's been a bit of a religious war over the years whether it's good to have the metadata in files up-to-date (e.g. by setting Automatically Write Changes).   If you regularly use third-party apps to examine your photos, then that's essential.  But if you don't, it comes down to an issue of backups. Many have observed, reasonably enough, that if you frequently backup your catalog file, then you're pretty well protected.

                           

                          But I prefer the extra level of protection by storing the metadata in the files, for two reasons:

                           

                          - It's distressingly common to discover, when you're trying to restore lost data, that your backups are corrupted or non-existent.  Most of us aren't professional IT administrators and we don't test our backups regularly, if at all.  Having a second level of protection for photo metadata partially protects against failure of catalog backups.

                           

                          - File-stored metadata better protects against some kinds of human error. About once or twice a year I accidentally delete photos from the catalog.  Undo doesn't help in that case (shame on LR), and the last catalog backup in my Time Machine backups may be an hour or two old, so if restored the catalog, I'd lose an hour or more of work. But with file-stored metadata, I can quickly restore the lost file from the Trash, and I haven't lost any metadata or develop settings.  (IT administrators know that the most common reason to restore from backups is user error, rather than software- or hardware-failure.)

                           

                          I set Automatically Write Changes, and since version 3, LR has been very good at ensuring that doesn't impact interactive performance.  In the infrequent instances where I change the metadata on my entire 60K catalog, my backup system has to work harder (in background) to back up, and I just live with it.

                          • 11. Re: Why has Metadata changed?
                            wobertc Adobe Community Professional

                            Great answers, I am much the wiser thanks to all your replies.

                            I hope I can give answers that inform as much for other users questions.